Tom Barry, Irish Politician, IRA Leader and ex-British Soldier

[ss002d6252]

15 minutes ago, Jervis said:

A book I have references TNA, PIN 15/248 as a source. 

Thank you

Just looked at that one on the N/A and PIN 15/248 is a reference to how multiple periods of service are dealt with (unless something else is erroneously hiding in the same file). https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C204963


Craig

[corisande]

5 minutes ago, ss002d6252 said:

16s was what was paid and is the expected rate for a 40% disability

Thank you

To put that into perspective, a Black & Tan RIC Constable got  70 shillings a week, so a full Army pension would have been 40/-, and a 40% man like Barry got 16/-

Barry also got an IRA pension for his War of Independence service from Aug 1920, somebody more knowledgeable than I might know what that was, but given his seniority I suspect was more than 16/-

[Jervis]

47 minutes ago, ss002d6252 said:

Any reference in the book as to what the '1927 report' is ? (it's certainly not the MoP Annual report - which themselves make no reference to any difficulties, other than arranging medical treatment ). 

TNA, PIN 15/757 MoP report Feb 1928. 

This MoP report was created in response to an Irish Free state report known as the “Lavery report”. The Lavery report was a list of grievances against the British Government, as provided by veteran associations such as the British Legion - Southern Ireland 

Edited 22 August , 2021 by Jervis

[ss002d6252]

4 minutes ago, corisande said:

Thank you

To put that into perspective, a Black & Tan RIC Constable got  70 shillings a week, so a full Army pension would have been 40/-, and a 40% man like Barry got 16/-

Barry also got an IRA pension for his War of Independence service from Aug 1920, somebody more knowledgeable than I might know what that was, but given his seniority I suspect was more than 16/-

By around 1920 in England 40s per week would be roughly 40% of the wage of a skilled man so 16s was well below that. I'm sure Ireland was different but not so difference that 16s was not well below average wage.

Craig

[Jervis]

11 minutes ago, ss002d6252 said:

Thank you

Just looked at that one on the N/A and PIN 15/248 is a reference to how multiple periods of service are dealt with (unless something else is erroneously hiding in the same file). https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C204963


Craig

Could be a typo in the book. The book Reference states. 

 

TNA, PIN 15/248, ex. Service men serving in rebel forces under internment as defined by the civil authorities (special powers) act (Northern Ireland) 1922 also remain entitled to their pension. 

[Jervis]

19 minutes ago, corisande said:

 

Barry also got an IRA pension for his War of Independence service from Aug 1920, somebody more knowledgeable than I might know what that was, but given his seniority I suspect was more than 16/-

I think he only applied for this IRA pension quite late in 1940. I guess like many irregulars he refused to acknowledge and engage with the Free State. Interesting that he would accept a British Army pension but not Free State one.

[corisande]

10 minutes ago, Jervis said:

Interesting that he would accept a British Army pension but not Free State one.

 

I have to smile when I read that. Is there a logical explanation, why, if it true, he would accept the British Pension, but not a Free State one. I guess one has to really unbdestand the mindset at the time (which I clearly do not)

[corisande]

For anyone interested Tom Barry's Irish Military Pension Application was submitted in Dec 1938 and is all online on this link

It is long - 245 pages!

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

1 hour ago, corisande said:

 

I have to smile when I read that. Is there a logical explanation, why, if it true, he would accept the British Pension, but not a Free State one. I guess one has to really unbdestand the mindset at the time (which I clearly do not)

He considered the Free State to be his enemy, and Michael Collins  to be " the CiC of the Enemy Forces".

There's a You Tube video of Barry, and his recollection of the  day he heard (in Kilmainham jail) of the death of Collins.

Ambivalent to say the least.

[Jervis]

1 hour ago, corisande said:

 

I have to smile when I read that. Is there a logical explanation, why, if it true, he would accept the British Pension, but not a Free State one. I guess one has to really unbdestand the mindset at the time (which I clearly do not)

Actually the pension was only offered to Anti-Treaty IRA in 1933, and if he applied in 1938 as per your post - so he didn’t ignore it for as long as I initially thought. 

To answer your question. Many Anti-Treaty IRA would never accepted the Free State as a legitimate Government. But more over the Free state were arguably even more ruthless (and effective) than the Crown forces in dealing with the IRA. During the civil war there were many executions, extra judicial killings and atrocities. This left a legacy of bitterness for many years. 

[Jervis]

Posting an Podcast on Tom Barry.
 

An interesting podcast it covers a lot of the information posted on this thread. 
 

Jervis

[corisande]

1 hour ago, Jervis said:

An interesting podcast it covers a lot of the information posted on this thread. 

I enjoyed the podcast.

As you say it covers a lot of the information posted on this thread.

I am very happy that eventually there is emerging a fair/researched/balanced (use your own adjwective) view of the histry of that period

I believe that Eve Morrison's new book on Kilmichael will eventually hit the bookshops in a couple of weeks, which I understand will give further perspective on the ambush

[Jervis]

1 hour ago, corisande said:

I enjoyed the podcast.

As you say it covers a lot of the information posted on this thread.

I am very happy that eventually there is emerging a fair/researched/balanced (use your own adjwective) view of the histry of that period

I believe that Eve Morrison's new book on Kilmichael will eventually hit the bookshops in a couple of weeks, which I understand will give further perspective on the ambush

Yes, agreed. Very fair and balanced.
 

I think they must have been reading this thread. 😁

[FROGSMILE]

16 minutes ago, Jervis said:

Yes, agreed. Very fair and balanced.
 

I think they must have been reading this thread. 😁

Then they have the example of some fine gentlemen. 👍

[Banjaxed]

Thank you all for an informative thread.

If it's not too late I would like to ask: How were British Army pensions paid out?

Would the recipient pick it up at his local post office?

Or, would the pension cheque/money-order have been posted out to the recipient's address? (in Barry's case, Convent Hill, Bandon). Barry's family left Bandon sometime in 1920 or early 1921. In the 1921 census they were established in Liverpool:

Since Barry was presumably "on the run" since the summer of 1920, neither option was particularly straight-forward.

Ray

[ss002d6252]

17 minutes ago, Banjaxed said:

If it's not too late I would like to ask: How were British Army pensions paid out?

Would the recipient pick it up at his local post office?

They were issued via payment slips that had to be cashed at the post office. Originally, the post office retained the slips and the man had to present his ID to obtain the payment.

Craig

[Banjaxed]

Thanks for that Craig. I am now wondering how often the head of the IRA Flying Column presented himself at Bandon post office, between the RIC station and the Essex barracks, to cash his pension slip. Would there be a record of when slips were cashed, or am I too optimistic on that front?

Ray