Tom Barry, Irish Politician, IRA Leader and ex-British Soldier

[Gerry White]

Any MIC for a Bernard Barry that fits the bill? 

 

 

[corisande]

36 minutes ago, Gerry White said:

Any MIC for a Bernard Barry that fits the bill? 

 

Not that I can find

 

There is another  T B Barry in RFA. # 906058

There are a number of Military entries for him on Ancestry - click

But he is Thomas Benjamin Barry from Hastings and clearly nothing to do with the Tom Barry from Cork

[corisande]

To try to pull the 1915/1916 press reports together , this is the montage of what we have so far

 

 

1. He enlisted in Jun 1915 and nothing in the press disagrees with that. There is no evidence of any earlier enlistment

 

2. When he enlisted he gave his address as  The Arcade, Roscarberry, Co. Cork. His next of kin was his father, also Thomas Barry of Roscarberry.. None of the press reports disagrees with that

 

3. His pension card gives his address as Convent Hill, Bandon which agrees with the Jan 1916 press report

 

4. His press photos above are same Tom Barry that was IRA commander in Guerilla Days

 

5. Everyone appears to agree that Thomas B Barry of Guerilla Days served as 100399 in RFA in Mesopotamia . And that his service record shows that he did not serve in France prior to going to Mespot.

 

6. There is no 1915 star that might show that he had been in France in 1915. Nor does his pension record suggest that he suffered gas injuries

 

7. So the only suggestion that he ever was in France come from the press cuttings that are giving what information was fed to them, and there is no independent way of verifying the claim that he was gassed in France. The balance of probability is that he never went to France and was never gassed there.

 

[kildaremark]

To throw a few spanner’s in the works.

Service record gives him In Mesopotamia on 21 Jan 1916.

14 Bty 4 Bde arrived from Marseilles on 23 Jan 1916 having left France on 23 Dec 1915 so was he with these or in a separate draft that went directly from home?

Either way, it would appear it is not possible for him to be in Ireland at Christmas 1915 as he couldn’t make Mesopotamia by 21/1/1916 as per newspaper.
Service record gives reprimand on 28/10/15 by Captain King. No Capt King in 4 Bde so likely he was still at home at this stage.

 

I can find no wounding for any Barry in late 1915 / early 1916 and indeed, there is no other Bernard Barry in 1901 or 1911 census to give a second candidate.

 

The main problem now is whether he went to France in late 1915, and returned home for a period before returning to Marseilles to catch transport to Mespot. 
 

Mark

 

[kildaremark]

Also for the record,

14 Bty first went into action at 5.40pm on 22/2/16 at SENNA. 

[Ivor Anderson]

The service numbers of Thomas Bernard Barry (100399) & Thomas Moloney (100451) are certainly quite close (MICs off Ancestry):

The service numbers of others who joined around the same time are listed in numerical order on the 1920 BWM & VM award pages:

e.g. Patrick Kirley 100394, Patrick Meaney 100398, Thomas Ryan 100400 & Samuel Sutton 100401.

 

Edited 5 June , 2020 by Ivor Anderson

[corisande]

Interestingly Peter Hart has a bit about Barry (Peter Hart, yes, I know..)

 

This perhaps explains "Bernard" and also Hart quotes his source of the gassing as that Eagle article in Jan 1916.

 

[corisande]

22 minutes ago, Ivor Anderson said:

The service numbers of Thomas B. Barry & Thomas Maloney are certainly quite close (MICs off Ancestry):

 

Inspired me to look up 14/15 star roll on Ancestry. The page that should cover Barry, naturally does not include him from our discussions here. Most of the RFA men with numbers around his did go to France, and so he would have known what had happened to them in France. I would think it would be impossible to know now why Barry never went to France with them. The men on the list appear to be Irish

 

[Ivor Anderson]

Re post 82. He may have been locally known as 'Bernard/Bernie' pre war to distinguish him from his father Thomas.

His father Thomas may also have been known by his second name 'Edward' after retiring to Rosscarbery, or after the death of his father.

Note: Thomas was the second son (not 3rd as stated by Hart). His brother Edward Joseph was 2 years older (see 1911 census), b.16-08-1895.

The 10 Nov.1915 cutting says he joined up aged 16, yet on his enlistment army service page he stated 19 years 6 months! His discharge documents give his correct age in Mar/April 1919 as 21 years /b.1897. His birth date was 1 July 1897 so he would have been almost 18 anyway at the end of June 1915?

 

Edited 5 June , 2020 by Ivor Anderson

[Ivor Anderson]

Re post 83. It is interesting that all the recruits who got a 1914-15 star went to France on different dates over a 3 month period. I assume to different units?

Thomas Ryan (100400) did not go to France in 1915 according to his medal card, and neither did Thomas Moloney (no 1914-15 star or date of entry to a war theatre are mentioned on their MICs). The story about being gassed at Ypres in December 1915 does not fit the 14th Battery/ 4th Brigade war diary.

Could Thomas have very briefly been with another RFA unit? He was appointed an acting Bombardier on 18-09-1915:

 

Edited 5 June , 2020 by Ivor Anderson

[Ivor Anderson]

The Arcade, Rosscarbery. Lawrence Collection c.1910:

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Arcade,_Rosscarbery,_Co._Cork_(32778709975).jpg

 

Edited 5 June , 2020 by Ivor Anderson

[Ivor Anderson]

SOURCE:

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=mnuWBQAAQBAJ&pg=PT479&lpg=PT479&dq=the+arcade+rosscarbery&source=bl&ots=eHIy4Njq2C&sig=ACfU3U2n4AffCMG1lpmqW3_9rkGE-Jq67w&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjR0rThjuvpAhWlRxUIHZ4pD_wQ6AEwBXoECAgQAQ#v=onepage&q=the arcade rosscarbery&f=false

 

Edited 5 June , 2020 by Ivor Anderson

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

1 hour ago, Ivor Anderson said:

SOURCE:

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=mnuWBQAAQBAJ&pg=PT479&lpg=PT479&dq=the+arcade+rosscarbery&source=bl&ots=eHIy4Njq2C&sig=ACfU3U2n4AffCMG1lpmqW3_9rkGE-Jq67w&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjR0rThjuvpAhWlRxUIHZ4pD_wQ6AEwBXoECAgQAQ#v=onepage&q=the arcade rosscarbery&f=false

 

 

That is an interesting fact.

[Wexflyer]

1 hour ago, Ivor Anderson said:

SOURCE:

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=mnuWBQAAQBAJ&pg=PT479&lpg=PT479&dq=the+arcade+rosscarbery&source=bl&ots=eHIy4Njq2C&sig=ACfU3U2n4AffCMG1lpmqW3_9rkGE-Jq67w&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjR0rThjuvpAhWlRxUIHZ4pD_wQ6AEwBXoECAgQAQ#v=onepage&q=the arcade rosscarbery&f=false

 

 

Isn't there a generational issue here? It states that Jerh Collins was a first cousin of Michael Collins. But it also says Jerh was married to a woman who is the **aunt** of Tom Barry's father, i.e.belonging to the generation of Tom Barry's grandparents. Does not seem to compute.

[Jervis]

Michael Collins‘ father was very elderly. I recall he was in his late sixties when Collins was born. 

[Ivor Anderson]

35 minutes ago, Wexflyer said:

 

Isn't there a generational issue here? It states that Jerh Collins was a first cousin of Michael Collins. But it also says Jerh was married to a woman who is the **aunt** of Tom Barry's father, i.e.belonging to the generation of Tom Barry's grandparents. Does not seem to compute.

 

Many an uncle/aunt is younger than e.g. their oldest nephew/niece in large families, even today. I assume they were nearing retirement.

Edited 5 June , 2020 by Ivor Anderson

[Wexflyer]

9 minutes ago, Ivor Anderson said:

 

Many an uncle/aunt is younger than e.g. their oldest nephew/niece in large families, even today. I assume they were nearing retirement.

 

Very true. But in this case you have to explain a discrepancy of two generations. Michael Collins is of Tom Barry's generation (7 years difference). His first cousin was married to a great-aunt, not aunt, of Barry's.

Edited 5 June , 2020 by Wexflyer

[Ivor Anderson]

The account could be wrong as I think the aunt's name was actually Ellen, rather than Hannah. She was 54 in 1901 and her husband Jeremiah died in 1903 aged 72.

EDIT (9am 6 June - to save a new post). Michael Collins' father Michael Collins (of Woodfield) died at Rosscarbery in March 1897 aged 83 (death cert.) - b.1814?.

TP Coogan says that MC's father was 75 years old when he was born (p.4). This makes it possible that he was a first cousin of Jeremiah Collins (b.1831?). Michael Collins' parents Michael John & Mary Anne O'Brien were married in Rosscarbery Chapel on 26-02-1876 (she was only 23). Michael Collins went to Clonakilty national school and Thomas Barry to Rosscarbery.

An Ellen Collins was present at the death of a shopkeeper called James Barry, aged 58, in Rosscarbery on 14-06-1903. We're getting a bit off topic here!

1901 Census for 2 Fair Lane, Rosscarbery in 1901:

 

Edited 6 June , 2020 by Ivor Anderson
Additional information

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

9 hours ago, Gerry White said:

I think that article is from The Skibbereen Eagle dated 21 January 1916.

Thanks Gerry.

[corisande]

26 minutes ago, Ivor Anderson said:

We're getting a bit off topic here!

 

Thought that myself !

[Wexflyer]

4 minutes ago, corisande said:

 

Thought that myself !

You raised the issue of, and speculated on "radicalization". I think a Barry/Collins family link is both historically interesting in itself, and potentially goes some way to address the issue you brought up. The British army records have almost certainly been fully mined. With that so, what else are you looking for if not this sort of filling out of the picture of the milieu in which he grew up and lived?

[kildaremark]

2 minutes ago, Wexflyer said:

You raised the issue of, and speculated on "radicalization". I think a Barry/Collins family link is both historically interesting in itself, and potentially goes some way to address the issue you brought up. The British army records have almost certainly been fully mined. With that so, what else are you looking for if not this sort of filling out of the picture of the milieu in which he grew up and lived?

Not quite - we have a contemporary local newspaper that says he was gassed in France in 1915 and no evidence to support and with very specific details about which hospital he was in etc. . We don't know how he got from Ireland to Mespot.

we have no evidence that he was offered a commission in the RMFs.

 

Interestingly the facts he gives in Guerilla Days - enlistment in June 1915 and in Mespot in March 1916 stand up to scrutiny.

Also interesting that he enlisted with Tom Moloney from Rosscarbery who features in Guerilla Days (may or may not be the same man)

 

Mark

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

49 minutes ago, Ivor Anderson said:

We're getting a bit off topic here!

I'm surprised we got to post #87 before anybody referenced the Commander-in-Chief.

[Wexflyer]

2 hours ago, kildaremark said:

Not quite - we have a contemporary local newspaper that says he was gassed in France in 1915 and no evidence to support and with very specific details about which hospital he was in etc. . We don't know how he got from Ireland to Mespot.

we have no evidence that he was offered a commission in the RMFs.

 

Interestingly the facts he gives in Guerilla Days - enlistment in June 1915 and in Mespot in March 1916 stand up to scrutiny.

Also interesting that he enlisted with Tom Moloney from Rosscarbery who features in Guerilla Days (may or may not be the same man)

 

Mark

 

There are an infinity of unanswerable questions. The trick is to spend our limited time to address questions that potentially can be answered.

Looking at the your list of issues, several of them strike me as probably unanswerable.

 

- Offered commission? I have never seen documentation of such offers, and my estimation is that there isn't any. However, it is at least plausible. By the Fall of 1915, the RMF must have been desperate for new officers. Barry appears to have had the required education, and his later career testifies that he certainly had command ability. Which reminds me, should we not be speaking of Cmdt. Barry?

 

- How did he get from Ireland to Iraq?  I am unaware of surviving embarkation/disembarkation lists. A rare war diary may list drafts, but in any case, the diaries have already been consulted. I don't think this will be answered with official records.

 

- Which hospital? I believe only 1% of relevant records were kept, so just 1% chance.

 

- In France in 1915? Wasn't there a minimum of 28 days in theater required for the 14/15 star?  If he was only there for 4 days, he would not have qualified? Four days is so short that his paperwork may never have caught up before he was already back?  Of the four issues you mention, I think this is the only one that might turn up something in official casualty lists, etc. But then you are subject to OCR issues, mistakes, etc.

Edited 5 June , 2020 by Wexflyer

[kildaremark]

Wexflyer - that last bit certainly needs clarification. Could you go to a theatre of war in late 1915 and not qualify for the 1915 star? 
The details are so specific in the newspaper article, they sound plausible and we would generally take as true such detail but the service record has put this in doubt - do we know of other inaccurate service records?

 

The thread has been quite good In bringing together all the available sources and their contradictions but you might be right that we won’t get any further!

Mark