Tom Barry, Irish Politician, IRA Leader and ex-British Soldier

[ss002d6252]

1 hour ago, corisande said:

Thanks Craig

Does that mean that he would have had to "subject" himself to a Medical Board around 1924 to continue drawing that pension

I am in an area here where I do not understand the niceties of the bureaucracy

Am I right in thinking that he initially got a disability pension when he left the army on 7 Apr 1919

That pension was for a defined period. In other words something had to trigger an extension

That every so often he was/could be called upon for a Board, and that if they were satisifed that he still had the disability, then the award would be extended

Can we tell from these cards when the pension stopped

Conditional pensions were subject to review by medical boards.

A pension was permanent or conditional. If they thought it was unstable or might improve then a conditional pension was paid, stopping if the situation stabilised to become permanent (or it dropped below a 20% disability and they paid off the claim).

Can't say for definite it was paid directly on discharge but certainly a claim was under way by Nov 1919.

A card shows the claim was 'dead' in Feb 1926.

Craig

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

5 minutes ago, ss002d6252 said:

but certainly a claim was under way by November 1919

Is that what the date 23/11/19 refers to?

 

[corisande]

and this is the back of that card

[ss002d6252]

13 minutes ago, Dai Bach y Sowldiwr said:

How interesting.

Corisande, did the Treaty wipe the slate clean for men like Barry?

During the War of Independence, he was a wanted man by the British, and there is no sign of a claim by him during that period, nor during the Civil War. Although there is no date of initial on this pension form, it looks as though he put in his claim in 1924?

Have you studied other men with a similar background to see if they also claimed?

 

There is a gap in the notes on the ledger between 1919 and 1923 but that by itself is nothing unusual. It may or may not be related to anything else.

The card which would have normally shown the pension number to fully confirm is not present.

We can say though that case file was requested in 1919 from London by the regional branch and there were two ledgers, this one being later merged with the other one posted earlier.

 

 

Craig

[ss002d6252]

Ah, the back of the ledger answers a lot (it's not usually completed).
https://www.fold3.com/image/644996310

A pension was being from Aug 1919 through to May 1923 - the cards all stopped being updated around that time.

Craig

29 minutes ago, Dai Bach y Sowldiwr said:

Is that what the date 23/11/19 refers to?

 

Yes, it's one of the notes about the claim being underway.

Craig

[corisande]

@Dai Bach y Sowldiwr

My interest in Barry stems from his role in the Kilmichael ambush in Nov 1920. He was the IRA Commander

My research on the Kilmichael Ambush is here - click

And on Barry is here - click It only covers Barry up to Kilmichael. He went on to become a prominant politician in Ireland

As you can probably imagine Barry is a bit of an enigma. Nobody really knows what happened at Kilmichael, and the main souce was Barry's own account. And for various reasons little was published on his British Army career . The only British Survivor was Freddie Forde - click a fascinating man , and nothing has emerged from him as an independent account (There are a number of short contemporary newspaper articles, which I do not know are his recall of events or spin by the British)

What you might call a free discussion is only really opening up on Kilmichael. Bottom line is "were the 17 Auxiliaries killed in a fire fight or were they shot after they surrendered". And I make an ernest plea not to to discuss that in this thread - the discussion (at the moment) will get you nowhere, unless or until new evidence is uncovered

 

 

[ss002d6252]

7 minutes ago, corisande said:

And I make an ernest plea not to to discuss that in this thread - the discussion (at the moment) will get you nowhere, unless or until new evidence is uncovered

Yes, For various reasons we would appreciate that 

Craig

[ss002d6252]

7 minutes ago, corisande said:

My interest in Barry stems from his role in the Kilmichael ambush in Nov 1920. He was the IRA Commander

It is interesting that his pension was still paid. There must have been discussions at higher levels on this (unless his IRA service was known at the time).

Craig

[corisande]

Thanks Craig

So Barry's Pension timeline is that

1919 Apr 7 He leaves British Army

1919 Nov 22 Is first date I see on his Pension Card. This appears to be when he first started getting a pension

1920 and 1921 he was getting a 40% pension. Interesting as he ws on Active Service with his Flying Column who spent weeks living rough

1922 Nov 27 Downgraded to "Interim"

1923 Feb 27 Extended, presumably the Interim payments

1924 there are a great number of Correspondence entries on the card. Does that mean he himself (or his representatives) were discussing his pension

1925 Jan 4 Conditional. Presumably this is the start of the winding down of his disability pension

1930 Jan 1 This seems to be the last entry and says "OK". Any idea what that means

 

 

 

 

[corisande]

7 minutes ago, ss002d6252 said:

It is interesting that his pension was still paid. There must have been discussions at higher levels on this (unless his IRA service was known at the time).

I am no expert on the rules in the British Army governing pensions, but with the Casement men - those 56 Irish POWs who signed up to work with the Germans - they got their pension. I assume that would also have been a high level decision - in this case to avoid long arguments as to the different levels of culpability

The British knew that Barry had led the Kilmichael Ambush, and could not have avoided having a lot to do with him after the Truce - he was the Liaison Officer on the Irish side covering problems that arose between the Truce and Britsh withdrawl. They must have been aware that he was an ex-British soldier

One can only surmise that the British did not want to get involved in an arguement over what pensions to pay or not pay. Barry had after all "earned" his disability pension while being employed by the British Army in Mespot

[ss002d6252]

2 minutes ago, corisande said:

1930 Jan 1 This seems to be the last entry and says "OK". Any idea what that means

At the moment we don't know for definite but it seems to be some sort of review of cases that was being checked.

Interim awards were a special provision to prevent cases lapsing. The conditional claim re-opening would indicate that normal service had resumed and the case had been successfully reviewed.

The Nov 1919 ledge note is 'CMS' - Commissioner of Medical Services.

Correspondence could be external or it could be internal.

Craig

1 minute ago, corisande said:

I am no expert on the rules in the British Army governing pensions, but with the Casement men - those 56 Irish POWs who signed up to work with the Germans - they got their pension. I assume that would also have been a high level decision - in this case to avoid long arguments as to the different levels of culpability

The British knew that Barry had led the Kilmichael Ambush, and could not have avoided having a lot to do with him after the Truce - he was the Liaison Officer on the Irish side covering problems that arose between the Truce and Britsh withdrawl. They must have been aware that he was an ex-British soldier

One can only surmise that the British did not want to get involved in an arguement over what pensions to pay or not pay. Barry had after all "earned" his disability pension while being employed by the British Army in Mespot

The annual reports et al. are all entirely silent on the matter, but in general they do seem to have 'played fair' on pension payments so them being paid doesn't surprise me overall.

Craig

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

Thanks Craig,

An interesting historical curiosity.

[corisande]

Thanks Craig

Basically we can conclude

• that Barry got a disability pension from late 1919 and it finished before the end of 1929
• There was a lot of correspondence generated in 1924, but we don't know whether that was Barry arguing a case or just internal British memos
• I assume that Barry would have had to attend a British Board (or perhaps supply his own doctor's reports) in order to get the extensions during this period

[ss002d6252]

38 minutes ago, corisande said:

Thanks Craig

Basically we can conclude

• that Barry got a disability pension from late 1919 and it finished before the end of 1929
• There was a lot of correspondence generated in 1924, but we don't know whether that was Barry arguing a case or just internal British memos
• I assume that Barry would have had to attend a British Board (or perhaps supply his own doctor's reports) in order to get the extensions during this period

Yes
Yes
Not sure what the procedure was for Ireland in to the 1920's. I'll take a look and see if I can find something.

Craig

[corisande]

33 minutes ago, ss002d6252 said:

Not sure in the what the procedure was for Ireland in to the 1920's. I'll take a look and see if I can find something.

 

Thanks, it would be interesting to know how proactive he would have had to have been

[ss002d6252]

I can't find any particular reference to it - it's one of the only aspects that isn't mentioned as being problematic. Unlike other parts of the machinery in which Sinn Fein was mention as a problem, nothing seems to have happened in respect of medical boards so it appears they continued untroubled.

Craig

 

[depaor01]

Fascinating stuff. Doesn't tally with the man's popular image which generally was and continues to be also 'silent' on his British Army service in general. 

[FROGSMILE]

Yes I agree that this has been fascinating.  I found it especially illuminating to read corisande’s excellent collation of Barry’s disciplinary record while serving with RFA and also his struggle to secure clerical employment after the war.  Overall my perception is that his personal discipline was erratic and might be summarised as indifferent.  He strikes me as a typical disgruntled ex-soldier (like them all with good reason) who by an accident of timing, geography and the company that he kept during a period of underemployment and political unrest, found a cause that gave him a sense of meaningful purpose.  

Edited 21 August , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[corisande]

40 minutes ago, depaor01 said:

Fascinating stuff. Doesn't tally with the man's popular image which generally was and continues to be also 'silent' on his British Army service in general. 

Like so much of Irish history, it is a question of who wrote it and why

I suppose my view is that there were good men and bad men on both sides in the War of Independence and indeed in most wars, with most men somewhere in between. Barry was one of those  of whom there are two sides to his life history. To me how and why he ended up as a guerilla leader is as fascinating as his career as that guerilla leader

Eve Morrison, a visiting fellow  at Cambridge, is publishing a new book on Kilmichael in November(101 years on, it never managed to make the 100 with events). She believes that she has new evidence, but I have not read the book. One can be sure of one thing, it will not be the final word on Kilmichael

[FROGSMILE]

3 hours ago, corisande said:

….there were good men and bad men on both sides in the War of Independence and indeed in most wars, with most men somewhere in between. 

Perfectly said and a great truism.

[Jervis]

A couple of observations not specifically on Barry, but on the pension situation for ex. Soldiers in Ireland, to provide some context for ex. Soldier like Barry. 

1. Due to the disturbed state of the country ex soldiers in Ireland were disadvantaged in regard to the  administration of pensions (1919 - 1923)
2. The above led to disaffection among former soldiers, which was exasperated by the usual post war employment opportunities, housing, mental health issues etc. 
3. This led to the formation of number of veteran organisation to campaign for soldiers rights such as the organisation Barry was involved in. 
4. Some elements of the British Authorities were very concerned that former loyal soldiers were being driven to extremist views (Barry seems to be a case in point) and attempts were made to address the situation. 
5. The upshot of these attempts, were In the longer term ex Soldiers in the Irish Free State actually did much better than their counterparts in the UK. 
6. A 1927 report by the British Ministry of pensions stated that ex soldiers living in the Irish Free state were significantly more likely to be in receipt of a pension, the pension was of higher value and they were more likely to be in receipt of additional allowances than their UK counterparts. Furthermore as the pension were indexed to Britain’s much higher cost of living - Irish solider pensioners availed of additional value. 

*Source is the excellent book by Paul Taylor- Heroes or Traitors. 

I know Corisande like to run a tight ship on these threads and I hope he won’t mind a little off topic comment when I say, In my view there is a lot of myths regarding the negative experience and mistreatment of the ex. Soldiers in the Irish Free state. Scrutiny of the facts can be surprising. As in this case, where ex. Soldiers in Ireland were not forgotten but generously provided for by British Authorities. Indeed many were better provided for than their UK counterparts and indeed better provided for than the IRA pensioners paid by the Irish Government.  

 

Jervis

[ss002d6252]

8 minutes ago, Jervis said:

A couple of observations not specifically on Barry, but on the pension situation for ex. Soldiers in Ireland, to provide some context for ex. Soldier like Barry. 

1. Due to the disturbed state of the country ex soldiers in Ireland were disadvantaged in regard to the  administration of pensions (1919 - 1923)
2. The above led to disaffection among former soldiers, which was exasperated by the usual post war employment opportunities, housing, mental health issues etc. 
3. This led to the formation of number of veteran organisation to campaign for soldiers rights such as the organisation Barry was involved in. 
4. Some elements of the British Authorities were very concerned that former loyal soldiers were being driven to extremist views (Barry seems to be a case in point) and attempts were made to address the situation. 
5. The upshot of these attempts, were In the longer term ex Soldiers in the Irish Free State actually did much better than their counterparts in the UK. 
6. A 1927 report by the British Ministry of pensions stated that ex soldiers living in the Irish Free state were significantly more likely to be in receipt of a pension, the pension was of higher value and they were more likely to be in receipt of additional allowances than their UK counterparts. Furthermore as the pension were indexed to Britain’s much higher cost of living - Irish solider pensioners availed of additional value. 

*Source is the excellent book by Paul Taylor- Heroes or Traitors. 

I know Corisande like to run a tight ship on these threads and I hope he won’t mind a little off topic comment when I say, In my view there is a lot of myths regarding the negative experience and mistreatment of the ex. Soldiers in the Irish Free state. Scrutiny of the facts can be surprising. As in this case, where ex. Soldiers in Ireland were not forgotten but generously provided for by British Authorities. Indeed many were better provided for than their UK counterparts and indeed better provided for than the IRA pensioners paid by the Irish Government.  

 

Jervis

Any reference in the book as to what the '1927 report' is ? (it's certainly not the MoP Annual report - which themselves make no reference to any difficulties, other than arranging medical treatment ). The pension rate paid by the British government was exactly the same rate whether the person was resident in England or in the Republic.

Craig

[corisande]

The pension rate paid by the British government was exactly the same rate whether the person was resident in England or in the Republic.

Craig

Barry's Pension Card quotes a rate of 16/-. and 40% disability

Is the 16 shillings what he actually got, or did he get 40% of that. And is that 16 shillings per week?

[ss002d6252]

11 minutes ago, corisande said:

The pension rate paid by the British government was exactly the same rate whether the person was resident in England or in the Republic.

Craig

Barry's Pension Card quotes a rate of 16/-. and 40% disability

Is the 16 shillings what he actually got, or did he get 40% of that. And is that 16 shillings per week?

40% was the disability rate , the pension then being paid per week. 16s was what was paid and is the expected rate for a 40% disability under the 1919 Royal Warrant. The 100% rate for a Private was 40s per week.

Craig

[Jervis]

21 hours ago, ss002d6252 said:

It is interesting that his pension was still paid. There must have been discussions at higher levels on this (unless his IRA service was known at the time).

Craig

I believe a decision was made to pay ex service men their pension entitlement irrespective of rebel activities. 

A book I have references TNA, PIN 15/248 as a source.