Tom Barry, Irish Politician, IRA Leader and ex-British Soldier

[Wexflyer]

1 hour ago, kildaremark said:

Wexflyer - that last bit certainly needs clarification. Could you go to a theatre of war in late 1915 and not qualify for the 1915 star? 
The details are so specific in the newspaper article, they sound plausible and we would generally take as true such detail but the service record has put this in doubt - do we know of other inaccurate service records?

 

The thread has been quite good In bringing together all the available sources and their contradictions but you might be right that we won’t get any further!

Mark
 

 

Duplicate....

Edited 5 June , 2020 by Wexflyer

[Wexflyer]

1 hour ago, kildaremark said:

Wexflyer - that last bit certainly needs clarification. Could you go to a theatre of war in late 1915 and not qualify for the 1915 star? 
The details are so specific in the newspaper article, they sound plausible and we would generally take as true such detail but the service record has put this in doubt - do we know of other inaccurate service records?

 

The thread has been quite good In bringing together all the available sources and their contradictions but you might be right that we won’t get any further!

Mark
 

 

I may have been confused with the regulations for the award of the "British War Medal", which required 28 days in theater. Looks like the 1914 and 15 "stars" may not had a similar requirement.

 

[kgren]

Which newspaper archive website are these articles being clipped from? Would like to check them out

[corisande]

You need a deep pocket, but you get them online at

 

https://www.irishnewsarchive.com/

[kgren]

Yikes! Deep indeed. Thanks for the info

[Wexflyer]

33 minutes ago, corisande said:

You need a deep pocket, but you get them online at

 

https://www.irishnewsarchive.com/

 

Isn't the British newspaper archive cheaper, with superior Irish coverage?

https://www.britishnewspaperarchive.co.uk/

e.g. the Irish one has just one Wexford paper, while the British version has five, one of which is the one on the Irish site.

[corisande]

1 minute ago, Wexflyer said:

Isn't the British newspaper archive cheaper, with superior Irish coverage?

 

As with the Ancestry v FmP debate, the answer probably is "you need them both". The British version has none of the 4 clippings that we have used in this thread.

 

I have found the Irish site better, but do not have a permanent sub, and only do a limited time when they have an offer

[corisande]

8 hours ago, Wexflyer said:

The details are so specific in the newspaper article, they sound plausible and we would generally take as true such detail but the service record has put this in doubt - do we know of other inaccurate service records?

 

This seems to come down to Barry himself. The newspaper stories appear to have been sourced from Barry . One then has to ask if there is a discrepancy between the newspaper articles and his service record, which is more likely to be correct. Or putting it slightly differently, was Barry a reliable witness

 

The Military Pension Board did not think that he was a reliable witness (to get a fuller understanding of Barry and if you have a spare morning read his pension application and appeal online at - click ).

 

The long and short of it is that he claimed that he had worked for the IRA from Apr 1919, and the Referee  refused to accept that, and only accepted that Barry was in the IRA from Aug 1920, and award his Irish  Military Pension on that basis. There was an appeal, with lots of detailed testimony from the good and the great as to what Barry did or did not do between Apr 1919 and Aug 1920, with the result that the Referee was prepared to accept one months service in that period where Barry was claiming 16 months and Barry was supplying details of what he did during that time. The referee did not accept Barry's account

 

We are not here on this forum to debate Barry's Military Pension rights and wrongs, but I am using it to show that the Irish Government or at least the Military Pensions part of it had doubts about Barry's veracity even under oath

 

Therefore when we compare the service record which had no reason to omit service ( and I have never seen a service record wrong as is being suggested here) with what I take to be Barry's account in the local papers , then the balance of probability is that the newspaper accounts are wrong where they disagree with the service record.

 

Unless that is, as Kildaremark has pointed out, it can be shown that he was in France for 4 days and was gassed. And nothing has emerged here to suggest that he was in France

[Wexflyer]

5 minutes ago, corisande said:

 

... The newspaper stories appear to have been sourced from Barry...

 

Personally, I am no so sure. As I already pointed out, would Barry mistake the name of his own father? Would he use two different versions of his own name? I would say that is unlikely.

 

Apart from that, the attribution of the comment you are responding to to me is incorrect. See how easy it is for things to go wrong?

[corisande]

4 minutes ago, Wexflyer said:

Apart from that, the attribution of the comment you are responding to to me is incorrect. See how easy it is for things to go wrong?

 

Probably proves both our points. The Forum system made the attribution , not me

 

Anyway my point is that Barry was  not seen to be a reliable witness by the Irish Military Pension tribunal

[kildaremark]

In terms of the service record, is the time he spent travelling to a theatre war included as overseas service or was it when he landed? There is an important distinction here for us. Did he leave UK on 21/1/16 or arrive in Mespot on 21/1/16? Is Marseilles counted as overseas service assuming he went that way.

 

Guerilla Days says he was in Italy also. Was this a stopover in 1918/19 on the way home or more than that?

 

Mark

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

The medal roll for the 1914-15 Star shown above for the near numbers  show a date to the right of the name.

The title of this column is 'Date of Disembarkation',( and as Wexflyer has pointer out, there was no 28 day qualification period for a Star.)

Which implies the date of arriving in France or Italy or Turkey or wherever.

The BWM on the other hand did have a 28 day qualification period, the clock started ticking when you left your native shores.

(For Irish soldiers, it meant exiting the UK, not Ireland to GB).

But you would still qualified for a BWM even if you were killed before the 28 days were up.

 

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

22 minutes ago, kildaremark said:

Is Marseilles counted as overseas service assuming he went that way.

I suppose it depends how he got to Marseilles.

If he got there by train from a channel port, then the first landing in France would qualify him later for the VM. (And Star if in 1915).

If he got there by boat from the UK, I don't think that wouldn't count, even if they got off the ship.

[Ivor Anderson]

His service record Military History Sheet states: 'CAMPAIGNS - Expeditionary Force Mesopotamia: - 1915, 16, 17, 18. EGYPT 1918, 19.

It is strange that his 'on board ship' dates between Mesopotamia and Egypt, and Egypt and Home are listed, but none for the initial journey to Mesopotamia.

Howard Williamson lists no minimum active service to qualify for the 1914-15 Star, but he did not get one. If he was in France for a few days it missed being recorded.

IV Brigade RFA war diary places them (inc. 14 Battery) east of BETHUNE (La Couture and La Baisse) in October 1915.

23-10-1915 IV Brigade HQ at La Couture (NE of Bethune).

14th battery firing on snipers at 'Ferme du Bois' during 1-8 November 1915.

A Lt. AH MacIlwaine joined 14 Battery as acting Captain on 5-11-1915

A Capt. DGC Rutherford became OC of 14 Battery from 9-11-1915

On 11-11-15 they moved to billets at Blarinhem

On 13-11-15 their HQ moved to Brassierie

On 15-11-15 they exchanged their draught horses for mules at Hazebrouck (E of Saint-Omer)

18-11-1915 IV Brigade joined Lahore Div Artillery 'upon its consolidation' at 'The Rouanne, 6m west of AIRE

A Lt. CC Hadden joined 14th Battery on 21-11-15

25-11-1915 Representatives of Brigade batteries addressed by Prince of Wales at Chateau Lillette

28-11-1915 Lt AH MacIlwaine became Staff Capt. of the Lahore Division). Lt CC Hadden became acting Captain 14 Battery.

29-11-1915 Brigade marched to billets in villages of Nedonchelle and Fontaine Les Hermans, 6m SW of Lillers.

Again: If he was made Bombardier in late September 1915 at Athlone, could he have been with another RFA unit in France for a short time ?

As a Bombardier could he have helped deliver a contingent to France and then return home? Clip below from his Ancestry service record:

 

 

Edited 6 June , 2020 by Ivor Anderson
Additional information

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

9 minutes ago, Ivor Anderson said:

Expeditionary Force Mesopotamia: - 1915

Hmm.

That contradicts what's written just above.

 

(That must be the tidiest, most legible entry I have ever seen in a service record).

[corisande]

11 minutes ago, Ivor Anderson said:

It is strange that his 'on board ship' dates between Mesopotamia and Egypt, and Egypt and Home are listed, but none for the initial journey to Mesopotamia.

 

I was surprised with his taking 18 days to get from (probably) Basra to Egypt

[kildaremark]

11 minutes ago, corisande said:

 

I was surprised with his taking 18 days to get from (probably) Basra to Egypt

War Diary not available to download for May 1918 onwards. WO95/4697

[kildaremark]

He made the papers again:

 

Southern Star, 27 Jan 1917.

 

This helps confirm that Bernard Barry's father is Thomas so reconfirms Bernard is T.B. Barry.

 

It also shows another link with Tom Moloney.  Interesting that the newspapers of the time still confuse Privates and Gunners. You would think by 1917, the editor would know this! Obvioulsy Barry was n Mespot, not Egypt in 1917 but that's a minor inaccuracy.

 

The cumulative newspaper coverage gets me thinking that the newspapers were very much on the propaganda side of things, if that is not stating the obvious - playing up the "sixteen year old" Barry enlisting which wasn't accurate and not necessary but it fits the script at the time. He "refused a commission" (other article) - again suits the family that he could be an officer but chose not to be one. There are other articles referring to a daughter being an accomplished musician and Edward Barry, Rosscarbery presiding at the Petty Sessions. It creates an image of a well to do family with Tom not quite making the grade (?!)  Again, after the war, he fails the civil service exams, so can't get a good job and seems bitter at the British Government for not supporting ex-servicemen all suggests that his conversion to republicanism may have as much to do with circumstance in 1920 and lack of other options rather than anything else.

Guerilla Days mentions Tom Moloney as a friend in the republican movement - it would be interesting to find out is this the same man from Rosscarbery who enlisted with him, and what happened to Frank McMurrough mentioned as enlisting with him in Guerilla Days? I can't find a reference to this man. Did he switch McMurrough with Moloney by 1948 when he wrote his memoir for other reasons?

 

There is also a newspaper article mentioning Tom Barry of Rosscarbery (father) at United Irish League meeting in 1914 so the ex-RIC man did have some interest in politics.

 

Mark

Edited 6 June , 2020 by kildaremark

[Gerry White]

I think all the evidence ponts to this Mark! But Barry was no different from the thousands of other demobilised Irishmen who were transformed by their experience of war  - some of whom joined the Black and Tans.

 

Whatever Barry's road to rebellion was, it doesn't detract from his 'achievements' in the War of Independence.

 

[kildaremark]

On rereading Barry's service record, there are a few further points worth noting in the chronology

 

Home

30/6/1915    Enlisted

1/7/1915      No. 5 Depot Athlone  5a Reserve Brigade 

18/9/1915    Appointed A/Bombardier

28/10/1915  Reprimanded by Sgt Bassett. Confirmed by Capt. King

 

Overseas

21/1/1916   Arrived in Mesopotamia

1/3/1916     Posted to 4 Brigade Ammunition Column

17/3/1916  Posted to 14 Battery, 4 Brigade

 

On rereading, he couldn't have travelled with the Brigade from Marseilles as he was only posted to it on 1/3/16 (by combining two of the charred service sheets) so it looks like it took a month to get him to the unit (possibly via India?).  On looking at the Divisional artillery diaries in late 1915, the artillery were well below strength so it appears that the reinforcements went straight from Home to Mespot rather than joining them in France.They knew in November they were going to Mesopotamia so no reason to strengthen artillery which was being supplemented by Indian soldiers.

 

Discipline

26/5/16   reverts (at own request) to Gunner

27/5/16   Irregular conduct  - reprimanded by Sgt Hood.

 

This was a second offence. I would suggest that 'reverting to gunner at own request' was not really a choice. It meant that he was brought up on a charge as a gunner rather than A/Bdr thus getting a reprimand only rather than a more serious offence as an NCO.

Note: This is also the period in which he claims to have become aware of the Easter Rising and became disillusioned.

 

In Action

11/3/16 2 sections of Ammunition column moved to SENNA to supply 14 & 66 batteries.

17/3/16. When Barry joined the 14 Bty, they were in action at THORNY NALA targeting hostile infantry in trenches and open ground for the next few days. On 7/4/16, their Captain Rutherford was killed in action while acting as a forward observation officer. On 21 May 1916, the Division moved so the 14th Battery were out of action for a short while - again matching Guerilla Days in Ireland and a respite which gave him time for rest and time on his hands to get a reprimand. Accordingly Barry first went into action on 17/3/16.

 

The point of the above illustrates that Guerilla Days is correct, the service record adds up to going overseas in 1916 so the only document that doesn't match up is the newspaper account from January 1916.

 

Mark

 

 

 

 

 

Edited 8 June , 2020 by kildaremark

[corisande]

1 hour ago, kildaremark said:

 

The point of the above illustrates that Guerilla Days is correct, the service record adds up to going overseas in 1916 so the only document that doesn't match up is the newspaper account from January 1916.

 

You make some interesting points there by putting timelines together

 

26 and 27 May Disciplinary events - you can argue that either way. Either he stepped down  because of news of the Easter Rising and his principles, or that it was nothing to do with news of the Easter Rising, and it was  his way of dealing with (another) discipline charge

The Rising started 24 April  so the news could just about have got there in 4 weeks, but could have taken longer. We have no notion of the date the news got to Mespot.

 

And as you say most things add up except for a local newspaper account, so the balance of probability is that the newspaper of Jan 1916 is wrong. The other newspaper accounts are "bland" or non specific on his movements

 

[corisande]

I came across one of his Pension Cards on Fold 3.

Can someone who knows about interpretation of these cards help clarify what is going on. Was he in fact drawing a pension for an extendded period (nothing wrong with that, he earned it). Can we tell when he stopped getting a British Pension?

[ss002d6252]

17 minutes ago, corisande said:

I came across one of his Pension Cards on Fold 3.

Can someone who knows about interpretation of these cards help clarify what is going on. Was he in fact drawing a pension for an extendded period (nothing wrong with that, he earned it). Can we tell when he stopped getting a British Pension?

Notes from 1925 on the bottom right, 'condtl', would suggest there was still a conditional pension in payment and his condition had still not stabilised fully.

Craig

[corisande]

Thanks Craig

Does that mean that he would have had to "subject" himself to a Medical Board around 1924 to continue drawing that pension

I am in an area here where I do not understand the niceties of the bureaucracy

Am I right in thinking that he intially got a disability pension when he left the army on 7 Apr 1919

That pension was for a defined period. In other words something had to trigger an extension

That every so often he was/could be called upon for a Board, and that if they were satisifed that he still had the disability, then the award would be extended

Can we tell from these cards when the pension stopped

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

How interesting.

Corisande, did the Treaty wipe the slate clean for men like Barry?

During the War of Independence, he was a wanted man by the British, and there is no sign of a claim by him during that period, nor during the Civil War. Although there is no date of initial on this pension form, it looks as though he put in his claim in 1924?

Have you studied other men with a similar background to see if they also claimed?