Tom Barry, Irish Politician, IRA Leader and ex-British Soldier

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

39 minutes ago, corisande said:

 

I appreciate your point, but I would rather stick to Tom Barry and the British Army, otherwise we will go off at a tangent about a quite separate matter . It is always difficult to keep "Irish" threads on track

Agreed.

My apologies.

Edited 4 June , 2020 by Dai Bach y Sowldiwr

[corisande]

Hey, you took off the link to the WD , but happily I saw it and have now got the Brigade WD

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

6 minutes ago, corisande said:

Hey, you took off the link to the WD , but happily I saw it and have now got the Brigade WD

I took it off  because it was the wrong one😢 - that was 14 Brigade, not 4.

I was in the process of correcting it when.....

The correct link  for 4 Brigade is

https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C7356103

 

But it seems to end in October 1915 unlike the diary on Ancestry which seems to end December 1915.

 

 

More apologies...

Edited 4 June , 2020 by Dai Bach y Sowldiwr

[corisande]

OK Thanks, so we are no further forward on War Diaries for Tom Barry, as he landed in Mespot in Jan 1916

[Ivor Anderson]

The 3 (Lahore) Divisional HQ WDs are available - perhaps for some background Brigade/unit information?

Jan - June 1916: https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C4558247

July - Sept 1916: https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/1c886398168d43679b9f21dd54288388

Also HQ Branches & Services 1915-18: https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C4558250

 

Edited 4 June , 2020 by Ivor Anderson

[corisande]

Thanks, I will download them and see how much detail they give

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

Ah,

What's this then?

 

3 (Lahore) Indian Division

	WO 95/5100/1
	Divisional Troops: 7 Harriana Lancers; 4 Brigade Royal Field Artillery 1916 Jan - 1918 Apr   https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/521e390d315e4a2ca09906a1efd3ae81   (Please check carefully before downloading.....)

Edited 4 June , 2020 by Dai Bach y Sowldiwr

[corisande]

41 minutes ago, Dai Bach y Sowldiwr said:

(Please check carefully before downloading.....)

 

Well done there. Genius

 

 I have downloaded and they are the correct War Diaries, they reference 14 Battery.

 

Unless anyone knows otherwise , I guess there is no WD for 14 Battery

[kildaremark]

I downloaded diary also. 14th Bty saw plenty of action. Very few ORs mentioned.  Can't say it would have been a quiet time - they saw plenty of action.

14/9/16 Drivers Foley & McIntosh wounded.

 

I note that a lot of ORs got one month's leave in India at various times - strong chance that Barry would have spent a month in India which sheds more light on his request post-war to go to India.

 

His biography by Meda Ryan says that he was gassed in Iraq and was taken back to Bologna and then to the Royal Hospital in Woolwich before returning to his regiment. The reference is to the Cork County Eagle newspaper 22/1/16. Bunbury repeats this in his chapter on Barry.  The service record suggests that this is not correct so must be a different Barry assuming the reference is correct.

 

Mark

[corisande]

29 minutes ago, kildaremark said:

His biography by Meda Ryan says that he was gassed in Iraq and was taken back to Bologna and then to the Royal Hospital in Woolwich before returning to his regiment.

 

I cannot get either gas attacks in general from WD or his wounding in particular from his service record

[kildaremark]

I found the source of this which gives us a problem in January 1916 - is the service record wrong???

 

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

39 minutes ago, kildaremark said:

Meda Ryan says that he was gassed in Iraq and was taken back to Bologna

Newspaper says gassed near Ypres    "...and was taken back to Bologne (sic)"

 

Almost identical, apart from the typo.

(And the wrong country for gassing, and the wrong country for hospital).

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

There's also a discrepancy about his age in the first press cutting (?Cork Examiner Article, 10 Nov 1915 ).

It's headed 'Volunteered at Sixteen'.

He was born 1st July 1897, so would have been 16 from 1/7/1913 till 30/6/1914.

According to his service record, he didn't attest until June 1915.

[Just expanding the point raised by Wexflyer in Post #12]

 

 

Edited 4 June , 2020 by Dai Bach y Sowldiwr

[kildaremark]

I can't find his wounding (gas) in the Times on line which makes me suspicious..?

 

Mark

[corisande]

8 minutes ago, kildaremark said:

I found the source of this which gives us a problem in January 1916 - is the service record wrong???

 

Looking at this logically

 

1. Either the Service record as in post 1 above is wrong, or the newspaper report is wrong

 

 

 

His service record makes no mention of going to France and is internally self consistent. I do not think he went to France, and the newspaper report must be wrong

 

2. If the newspaper report had been correct , then he would have got a 14/15 Star. He did not get a Star

 

3. Gas was not used in Mespot. From Gallipoli & the Middle East by Edward Erickson

4. Could there be two men being referred to. I don't think so' His pension card (post 1 above) has the same name and address as this newspaper clip

 

5. Could he have joined up earlier, been gassed and then discharged for whatever reason, then re-enlisted in RFA. No -  he enlisted in RFA in Jun 1915, as the newspaper and his service record show,

 

6. If he had been gasses there would have probably been a mention of it on the disabilities on his pension card

 

7. Same man in paper in RFA  as the IRA commander

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

38 minutes ago, kildaremark said:

I found the source of this which gives us a problem in January 1916 - is the service record wrong???

 

What's the date of this cutting?

Is it also the Cork Examiner?

 

How do the addresses in his service record, pension card and newspaper cuttings tie in with known documented biographical sources about him?

Edited 4 June , 2020 by Dai Bach y Sowldiwr

[Gerry White]

Hi all,

 

Interesting discussion!

 

Kildare Mark just informed me that it was taking place. I wrote the piece in the Irish Times so  I thought I would 'drop in'.

 

First of all, apologies for the typo. His unit was, of course, the 14th Battery and not the 114th as stated in the article.

 

Here is the entry ion the record of civil service examination s that is held in Kew:

 

 

 

 

article.

[Gerry White]

Also, there is an entry on his pension card that intrigues me. If you look carefully, am I correct in saying that the date of discharge seems  to be crossed out and the notation underneath may read:  'Trans A2'

 

Thoughts?

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

Gerry,

That reads 'Trans. CL. Z'

Transferred to Class Z of the Army Reserve.

The standard class for men being demobbed.

[corisande]

I think it Transfer to Z Reserve

[Gerry White]

Here is the speech he made:

 

 

3 minutes ago, Dai Bach y Sowldiwr said:

Gerry,

That reads 'Trans. CL. Z'

Transferred to Class Z of the Army Reserve.

The standard class for men being demobbed.

Many thanks!

[Gerry White]

My main objective is writing the piece was to illustrate how the impact of service in the Great War might have influenced the decisions taken by Irish veterans.

[corisande]

Gerry

 

How can you be sure that the "Mr Barry" in the above Cork Constitution article is Tom Barry and not another Barry from Bandon, maybe a brother even?

[Gerry White]

Here is a report on the funeral of James Bourke from the Cork Examiner. Bourke was bayoneted by British soldiers during an altercation at the North Gate Bridge in Cork.

Note the rank 'sergeant'.  As we know, his service record would have mentioned this.

[Gerry White]

2 minutes ago, corisande said:

Gerry

 

How can you be sure that the "Mr Barry" in the above Cork Constitution article is Tom Barry and not another Barry from Bandon, maybe a brother even?

I checked with a number of Bandon historians and checked myself but failed to find any mention of a Barry from Bandon who was involved with the ex-servicemen's organisations - as we know Tom Barry was. He is also mentioned in a number of newspaper reports.