Tom Barry, Irish Politician, IRA Leader and ex-British Soldier

[corisande]

6 minutes ago, Gerry White said:

checked myself but failed to find any mention of a Barry from Bandon who was involved with the ex-servicemen's organisations -

 

Thank you, so we can be reasonably sure rather than absolutely certain

 

Putting it a different way - He was happy to be publicly associated with the ex-servicemen's organisation in 20 Jul 1920 , albeit in a sort of anti-British way. Are there any later references to him with that organisation - or he just fade away

 

Guerilla Days has him in IRA by May 1920. The membership of both organisations at the same time don't seem to fit !

 

[kildaremark]

A few more points worth noting.

 

There is a Bernard Barry from Roscarbery also in the RFA so we need to make sure that there is no confusion with this man (unlikely with initials).

 

T.B. Barry's Medal Index Card does not include pre-1916 service overseas.

I cannot find T.B. Barry in the Times casualty lists (so far). I believe gas does qualify as a wound (?).

I think the Ypres article is not consistent with the facts.

 

My hypothesis is that Bernard Barry of Rosscarbery  is who the article in January 1916 is about, but the newspaper confused him with Thomas Bernard Barry of Rosscarbery/Bandon and stuck in the wrong photo - cousins perhaps?

 

This then gets carried through numerous secondary sources and becomes a fact!  Lesson: always get two primary sources!

 

Mark

Edited 4 June , 2020 by kildaremark

[Gerry White]

15 minutes ago, Gerry White said:

I checked with a number of Bandon historians and checked myself but failed to find any mention of a Barry from Bandon who was involved with the ex-servicemen's organisations - as we know Tom Barry was. He is also mentioned in a number of newspaper reports.

 

[Gerry White]

Many (many) years ago I also met Barry (he was very old and I was young). He never mentioned having a brother who served. 

11 minutes ago, kildaremark said:

A few more points worth noting.

 

There is a Bernard Barry from Roscarbery also in the RFA so we need to make sure that there is no confusion with this man (unlikely with initials.

 

T.B. Barry's Medal Index Card does not include pre-1916 service.

I cannot find T.B. Barry in the Times casualty lists (so far). I believe gas does qualify as a wound (?).

I think the Ypres article is mot consistent with .the facts .

 

Mark

From what gather the info for those articles were provided by the subject.

 

[Ivor Anderson]

Thomas Bernard(ine) Barry's family on the 1911 Census of Ireland at 2 Fair Lane, Rosscarbery, Co. Cork.

Only 8 of 9 surviving children are listed in 1911 - a sister Margaret (one year younger than TB) on the 1901 census is not listed here.

http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/reels/nai001838954/

His Service Record documents give Convent Hill, Bandon in 1919-20. He was born at Killorglin, Co. Kerry n 1897. His father (Thomas) was from Milford, Co. Cork at marriage in 1894. TB Barry's grandfather was an Edward Barry. The Private Bernard Barry in the October 1915 cutting above may be an uncle or a cousin?

 

Edited 4 June , 2020 by Ivor Anderson

[Gerry White]

1 hour ago, Dai Bach y Sowldiwr said:

What's the date of this cutting?

Is it also the Cork Examiner?

 

How do the addresses in his service record, pension card and newspaper cuttings tie in with known documented biographical sources about him?

I think that article is from The Skibbereen Eagle dated 21 January 1916.

Just now, Gerry White said:

I think that article is from The Skibbereen Eagle dated 21 January 1916.

To clarify, the article with the photo. 

 

[Gerry White]

23 minutes ago, corisande said:

 

Thank you, so we can be reasonably sure rather than absolutely certain

 

Putting it a different way - He was happy to be publicly associated with the ex-servicemen's organisation in 20 Jul 1920 , albeit in a sort of anti-British way. Are there any later references to him with that organisation - or he just fade away

 

Guerilla Days has him in IRA by May 1920. The membership of both organisations at the same time don't seem to fit !

 

Have you read his IRA pension application? There is a dispute about when he joined the IRA. It appears that he joined in the summer of 1920. He attended Bourke's funeral in July 1920. 

 

[corisande]

1 hour ago, Gerry White said:

I wrote the piece in the Irish Times so  I thought I would 'drop in'.

 

I am getting confused now as to the personae involved. I thought Ronan McGreevy wrote that article citing your work. Are you the same person as Ronan?

[Gerry White]

No! The article was one of many that appeared in an Irish Times supplement that was edited by Ronan McGreevy!

[corisande]

2 minutes ago, Gerry White said:

There is a dispute about when he joined the IRA. It appears that he joined in the summer of 1920. He attended Bourke's funeral in July 1920. 

 

Yes, I know. And Guerilla Days is particularly vague !  I was just seeing if you had anything concrete that might fill the gap

[Gerry White]

I think the gap is best filled by when the Irish government pension board decided his membership commenced!!! 

 

Another book on the Kilmichael Ambush due out in November - by Eve Morrison.

 

BTW. Many (many) years ago, I met and spoke to Tom Barry on a couple of occasions. I was around 19 and he was very elderly. 

[kildaremark]

13 minutes ago, Gerry White said:

I think the gap is best filled by when the Irish government pension board decided his membership commenced!!! 

 

Another book on the Kilmichael Ambush due out in November - by Eve Morrison.

 

BTW. Many (many) years ago, I met and spoke to Tom Barry on a couple of occasions. I was around 19 and he was very elderly. 

... and you didn’t ask him “what did you do in the Great War“ !!!

[Gerry White]

1 minute ago, kildaremark said:

... and you didn’t ask him “what did you do in the Great War“ !!!

 

I was in awe Mark!

[kildaremark]

9 hours ago, Ivor Anderson said:

As you already know, his service record says that Thomas Barry served with 14th Battery, 4th Brigade RFA. According to the LLT site the 4th Brigade comprised numbers 7, 14 and 66 batteries and was under the command of 7th (Meerut) Division of the Indian Army in France and Mesopotamia, before transferring in January 1916 to the 3rd (Lahore) Division in Mesopotamia and Palestine. The 4th Division War Diary on Ancestry ends in December 1915 with them sailing from Marseilles by 23 December 1915. 

Thomas' service record states that he served at 'home' until 20th January 1916 and then Mesopotamia.

 

14th Battery, 4th Brigade did serve on the Western Front in 1915 so still makes it possible that Barry served overseas (4 days overseas service) mentioned in the newspaper article before he was gassed at Ypres). Despite the Natinoal archives description the War Diary for 4 Brigade goes up to the end of 1915.

 

Is it possible that as his service on the Western Front was so short and he went with the battery to Mespot, that the 'records section' forgot he had served on the Western Front. It would mean there is a medal out there to be claimed by the family!

 

Essentially, if the 14th Battery suffered a gas attack in November 1915, then the story matches up even if he didn't apply for a disability pension for gas. It can't be December as they were at rest and transported to Marseilles. Last action of the 4th Brigade was 8 November 1915 at Ferme du Bois. Some record of shelling by 15cm and 77s on them but no specific mention of gas in Sept/Oct/Nov/Dec 1915. Equally possible that a new draft arriving might have had to undergo gas training that didn't go well for Gnr Barry?

 

In retrospect, i don't think we can totally discount Barry being on the Western Front in late 1915.

 

We may be looking, however, for a different battery that arrived in France or went into action for the first time in early December 1915 and suffered a gas attack. 

 

Mark

Edited 4 June , 2020 by kildaremark

[BullerTurner]

On 03/06/2020 at 12:35, corisande said:

he was not radicalised by the Easter Rising as he had claimed, but was among the tens of thousands of Irish-born British soldiers who returned to Ireland with no prospects of employment.

It is perfectly possible that he was “radicalised” cumulatively by both the Rising and then the absence of a land fit for heroes, which was delivering what Redmond had suggested Irish involvement in the British services would?

[corisande]

Depending on how you view the evidence, Barry's  involvement  with the ex-soldiers organisation is either pro British (in as much as they were British ex-army) or else pro-Irish (in that he claimed he was helping the IRA in a loose sort of capacity in keeping the IRA informed of their activities)

 

His IRA Pension papers are long and cover both the application and his appeal.

 

As regards when he joined the IRA, the Referee awarded him pension for 1 months service prior to 1 April 1920 on the grounds that it was low level service, then continuous service after 1 Aug 1920 credited as full active service, The gap from Apr to Aug is not pertinent, it is because of the way the appeal worked.

 

He claimed he joined the ex-servicemen's Association in order to feed intelligence to the IRA. In his pension application theRefferee did not give much weight to his work for the IRA before 1 Aug 1920

 

 

 

He never mentioned his applications to work for the Civil Service in Ireland nor in India. This was the closest that discussions got to what BArry was up to.

[Gerry White]

Well...if he joined the IRA in April 1920, he was actively trying to form a branch of an ex-servicemen's organisation that June..

[Gerry White]

Of course, another possible explanation for the information contained in the two newspaper reports (with the photos) is that Barry himself (or someone else|) gave the wrong information. I think its highly unlikely that his service record would have no mention of time on the Western Front, gas wounds and was home on leave recovering. These documents are normally reliable.

 

As for the 'Bernard Barry' formerly of Rosscarbery. It is also possible that this report actually refers to Tom Barry. I believe he was also called 'Bernie' when he was young.

[Ivor Anderson]

27 minutes ago, Gerry White said:

As for the 'Bernard Barry' formerly of Rosscarbery. It is also possible that this report actually refers to Tom Barry. I believe he was also called 'Bernie' when he was young.

 

The difficulty with that article is that it gives his father's name as Edward 'late of Roscarbery' rather than Thomas. Edward was TBB's grandfather.

Edited 4 June , 2020 by Ivor Anderson

[Wexflyer]

52 minutes ago, Gerry White said:

Of course, another possible explanation for the information contained in the two newspaper reports (with the photos) is that Barry himself (or someone else|) gave the wrong information. I think its highly unlikely that his service record would have no mention of time on the Western Front, gas wounds and was home on leave recovering. These documents are normally reliable.

 

As for the 'Bernard Barry' formerly of Rosscarbery. It is also possible that this report actually refers to Tom Barry. I believe he was also called 'Bernie' when he was young.

 

If  Bernard Barry is a separate person, then should there not be a MIC for him, and possibly other records also - has anyone looked?

As for records being reliable, well... In general yes, but not absolutely so.
I did not have many relatives in the British army, but for the few I do, their records certainly include mistakes (not mistakes in info provided by the soldier). An example of a very fundamental mistake is where some army clerk misread or mistook my relatives name and proceeded to "correct" it throughout his record. So his record is indexed under the wrong name.

Edited 4 June , 2020 by Wexflyer

[Ivor Anderson]

There were lots of Thomas Barry's in Co. Cork at the time of a similar age. It is a big county and Barry is a common local surname.

The Barrys are said to be descended from a Norman soldier who came over c.1170 and got granted land by Strongbow.

There are many Barry MICs, e.g. for a Thomas B. Barry 906058 RFA, but I cannot find a service record to check place of origin etc..

It could also be that the newspaper report confused his grandfather Edward with his father, but Edward was deceased by 1894 (son's marriage). Also the newspaper report that mentions Thomas being wounded gives his father's name as 'Thomas E. Barry'. The E is likely to be for Edward after his father?

TBB's father Thomas was 50 in early 1911, so he was born c.1860, before civil registration of births. His grandfather Edward must have been born in the 1830s.

 

Edited 4 June , 2020 by Ivor Anderson

[kildaremark]

Looking more likely that Bernard Barry is indeed T.B. Barry. Enlistment date the same!

Mark

 

[Wexflyer]

17 minutes ago, kildaremark said:

Looking more likely that Bernard Barry is indeed T.B. Barry. Enlistment date the same!

Mark

 

 

 

If that is so, then it tends to discount the notion that he himself was the source of the 1915 and 1916 newspaper articles. He would hardly mistake his own father, and unlikely to vary his own name.

[Gerry White]

 

I would still think that's a possibility for the two articles that included the photos. I believe that, like today, the photographer would take info on the subject and submit it to the newspaper.  Or if not the photographer, then whoever submitted it. 

 

Its think its clear from the Bernard Barry articles that the info is from someone else. 

17 hours ago, Dai Bach y Sowldiwr said:

What's the date of this cutting?

Is it also the Cork Examiner?

 

How do the addresses in his service record, pension card and newspaper cuttings tie in with known documented biographical sources about him?

I think that article is from The Skibbereen Eagle dated 21 January 1916.

[kildaremark]

The next mystery is to find a Barry casualty in Dec 1915-Jan 1916 casualty lists. This would assist in determining if Tom Barry or another Barry was in France in 1915 assuming gas poisoning were recorded as casualties at that stage. I haven’t found a matching casualty so far..

Mark