19th Motor Machine Gun Battery in India 1918 and 1919

[pjwmacro]

1 hour ago, david murdoch said:

I have a possible for him Pte  David George Burke M2/120551 Army Service Corps.

Well done David - that definitely looks like a strong possibility. Best, Paul

[pjwmacro]

1 hour ago, mcassell said:

1st (HQ) Armoured Motor Brigade - Nos. 1 thru 3 AMBs; 15 MMG; OC Major A. Clifton, Brigade Sergeant Major JR Moores.

10th Armoured Motor Brigade - Nos. 4 thru 7 AMBs, later also No.16AMB; 3 and 22 MMG; OC various, Brigade Sergeant Major FE Love.

6th Armoured Motor Brigade - Nos. 8 and 11 AMBs; 19 MMG; OC ? Major Erlebach??)

? (possibly 4th) Armoured Motor Brigade - Nos. 9, 10, 12 thru 15 AMBs (all operating in big Indian cities); 14MMG. OC???

I have never seen any reference grouping the MMG Batteries into the Armoured Motor Brigades in this way. Can you be more specific about your thoughts on this?

Worth noting that 22 MMG Battery War Diary is in WO 95/5392 at TNA - and in the same box as 1 Armoured Motor Brigade: Headquarters (1919 May - 1920 Feb), although 22 Battery are Kohat - Kurram Force: Force Troops, while 1 AMB is Lines of Communication Defence. When last in TNA I had a quick look at the 1AMB diary and don't recall seeing anything about either 15 or 22 MMG. 

10th Armoured Motor Brigade diary is in the Waziristan Force Box, WO 95/5399 and includes the following:

10 Armoured Motor Brigade Machine Gun Corps:

Headquarters (1919 June - 1921 Feb).

10 Armoured Motor Brigade Machine Gun Corps: 5 Armoured Motor Battery (1919 Aug - 1921 Aug).

10 Armoured Motor Brigade Machine Gun Corps: 7 Armoured Motor Battery (1919 July - 1921 Sept).

10 Armoured Motor Brigade Machine Gun Corps: 16 Armoured Motor Battery (1920 Aug - 1921 Oct).

10 Armoured Motor Brigade Machine Gun Corps: Brigade Armoured Car Company (1921 Nov - 1922 Feb).

Although I have never looked up this box.

[pjwmacro]

51 minutes ago, mcassell said:

On reflection, I think 4th AM Brigade was No. 4 AMB and 3 MMG out of Kohat. Found a reference to a Captain Elmslie, IARO OC 4th AM Brigade and assumed it was mistake for No. 4 AM Battery.

At considerable risk of getting off topic(!) the subject of Amoured Motor Brigades and Batteries is fraught with difficulties - but I don't think there was a 4th Armoured Motor Brigade - very happy to be proved wrong!

@ghchurcher and @david murdoch put some effort into trying to sort the confusion a couple of years ago in the form of media folders on the following FB page: (1) ROYAL TANK CORPS 1918-1939 Research & Collectors Group | Facebook

Quoting that site:

1ST ARMOURED MOTOR BRIGADE (1AM.BDE)

Comprised:-
1st Armoured Motor Battery (1AMB)
2nd Armoured Motor Battery (2AMB)
3rd Armoured Motor Battery (3AMB)

BACKGROUND TO ARMOURED MOTOR BRIGADES

In the operation from Shabkadar (North West Frontier) on 8 October 1915 "armoured cars were used for the first time in action in India and proved of great value". (LG 04/07/1916)

Armoured Motor Units began to form in the Spring of 1915 utilising vehicles donated by rich Indians and Europeans. This was overseen by Colonel Lord Montagu (Inspector of Motor Vehicles, India and later Brigadier General, Advisor on Mechanical Transport Services, India). Only No1 AMU had reliable vehicles - three Rolls Royce which, like the other cars, were armour-plated by Indian Railway Workshops off chassis sent from the UK, and this unit acted as a Brigade HQ for Nos 1, 2 & 3 AMUs, and being titled 1st Armoured Motor Brigade. Most of the other vehicles were unsuitable and it was not until 1918 that improved cars were made available.

The Units were re-designated Armoured Motor Batteries in 1917 and during this period, British and Indian crews were gradually replaced by MGC personnel. The British crews had originally been provided by Territorials from garrisons in India.

By 1919, 2nd & 3rd Armoured Motor Brigades were formed from Nos 9, 10 & 12 AMBs in 2AM.BDE and Nos 8, 11 & 14 AMBs in 3AM.BDE, whilst Nos 4, 13 & 15 AMBs remained un-brigaded.

At the commencement of the 3rd Afghan War however, 1st Armoured Motor Brigade was reorganised into five Regular and three Auxiliary AMBs which served in the Khyber and Chitral areas.

10th Armoured Motor Brigade was formed on the 1st July 1919 as part of a reorganisation of the armoured car batteries in India. It comprised Nos 5, 6, 7 & 16 AMBs and operated in Waziristan and Mahsud. Disbanded 30th September 1921 (RTCSH says November) when it was absorbed by 10th Armoured Car Company of the Tank Corps.

So if there was a 4th Armoured Motor Brigade my assumption is it was the Armoured Motor Batteries which appear to be unbrigaded: namely: No's 4, 13 and 15.

[mcassell]

I'll be brief so not to slip off topic. There is a 1917 letter at NA from Montagu to WO requesting 5 MMG Batteries to work with Armoured Motor Brigades - will try to find reference. Second, one of the Indian Army Lists of 1919 (August I think) shows structure as in my previous post, except 9, 10, 12-15 not brigaded, with MMG Batteries attached as shown.

[pjwmacro]

38 minutes ago, mcassell said:

I'll be brief so not to slip off topic. There is a 1917 letter at NA from Montagu to WO requesting 5 MMG Batteries to work with Armoured Motor Brigades - will try to find reference. Second, one of the Indian Army Lists of 1919 (August I think) shows structure as in my previous post, except 9, 10, 12-15 not brigaded, with MMG Batteries attached as shown.

Interesting and thanks for looking. I know there was a certain amount of movement of personnel from the MMG batteries to the AMU / AMB. But this is the first I have heard of them being formally brigaded. I wonder if it was requested but never really happened in practice - or if it did the practice was not uniform through the NWF. Certainly none of my 22 MMGB research has thrown up any indications of them working with the AMBs. That said, Robson (Crisis on the Frontier) appears to associate sections of armoured cars with both 19 and 22 MMG. Up til now I have always assumed it was a mistake.

Regards, Paul

PS - I`m going to flag this conversation onto the Motor Machine Gun Batteries on the North West Frontier and In India thread, to try and keep this one onto topic:

 

[david murdoch]

M2/120551 Pte. David George Burke  Army Service Corps.

I can now confirm I have a positive identification for “Sgt Burke” first seen in the 22^nd MMG photo and recently in the 19^th MMG photos, through contact with his grandson Chris and comparing to a 1920’s family photo.

He was born David George Burke  10/2/1883 Kirkdale, Lancashire to parents George Charles Burke and  Frances Owen. He was the eldest of six siblings.

He married  Elizabeth Jane Clark in 1904. They had four children prior to WW1 and two more after he returned from the war.

He appears to have been involved with motor vehicles from an early age. On 1901 Census he was an apprentice in a cycle shop. He was initiated into Lodge 594 (Downshire Lodge) in 1907 giving his profession as Motor Agent.

On the 1911 Census his occupation was Motorcycle Agent, Motorcycle repairer and Chauffeur. He had his own cycle repair business at his home address at 313 Stanley Road, Liverpool.

There is no surviving service record for him, but by his ASC service number and a close Silver War Badge record he enlisted on 8th September 1915 or a day or so after. Five consecutive numbers above his all went to France on 22^nd September 1915 ( from ASC 1915 star roll). There is a G. Burke listed in the MMGS recruitment list in The Motorcycle of 16^th September 1915, which is almost certainly him. He is listed next to P. Bolger (2398 A/Sjt Philip Bolger of 22^nd MMG!) Bolger was also from Bootle, Liverpool and a year older than Burke. Their addresses were walking distance apart so there is a very good possibility they knew each other and travelled to Coventry together to enlist in MMGS - In Burke’s case he would be picked out for ASC as a fitter/mechanic due to his background and then returned to MMGS and assigned to a battery. It’s probable he served the whole time with 19^th MMG as he has no 1915 Star but has British War Medal and Victory Medal. His official rank was always Private, so it’s likely he went to France with 19^th MMG in February 1916 and then on to India with them. On his medal index card and IGSM roll he is noted as Acting Mechanical Sergeant Major and Acting  WO II. So he likely took over the senior mechanic position with 19^th MMG while in India. His appearance in the 22nd MMG photo may have been on business in June 1918 in Rawalpindi - possibly to collect or trade spare parts for the motorbikes which would be an 1100 miles round trip from Quetta. He may have used this opportunity to meet up with Bolger who appears on the right of the photo. It’s also likely he would know of Alfred Fielder through The Motorcycle as he was a well known rider prior to the war. He then qualified for India General Service Medal with Afghanistan NWF 1919 clasp and was discharged 21^st January 1920 which fits in with the batteries being disbanded.

On his return to England he had two more sons born 1921 and 1923. His wife died in 1934. On the 1939 register he was living at 95 Merton Road, Bootle, Liverpool with five of his six children and running the family business. His occupation Garage Proprietor and engine fitter (internal combustion). His eldest daughter was cycle shop assistant and two sons one a motor mechanic and the other apprentice motor mechanic were involved in the business.

David George Burke died at the General Hospital, Waterloo, Liverpool on  1^st July 1960 aged 77. He was buried on 5th July 1960 in  Anfield Cemetery, Merseyside.

Edited 8 April , 2022 by david murdoch

[pjwmacro]

On 08/04/2022 at 22:31, david murdoch said:

I can now confirm I have a positive identification for “Sgt Burke” first seen in the 22^nd MMG photo and recently in the 19^th MMG photos, through contact with his grandson Chris and comparing to a 1920’s family photo.

He was born David George Burke  10/2/1883 Kirkdale, Lancashire to parents George Charles Burke and  Frances Owen. He was the eldest of six siblings.

Great stuff David. Congratulations on tracking it down in such detail. Do you know who is who in the family photo? And is grandson Chris now on the forum?

Regards, Paul

[david murdoch]

6 hours ago, pjwmacro said:

Great stuff David. Congratulations on tracking it down in such detail. Do you know who is who in the family photo? And is grandson Chris now on the forum?

Regards, Paul

According to Chris (Burke) the photo was taken as Aintree Racecourse in the 1920's the lady behind him is his wife Elizabeth. The other couple possibly  sister in law and her husband, as they are in another wedding photo. I sent Chris the links to both 19th and 22nd MMG threads, and also medal rolls, photos ect by email. I've just found another link between Burke and Bolger. Philip Bolger joined the same Masonic Lodge (594 Downshire) Initiation date  25th June 1914 (Burke having been there since 1907) So certain to have known each other prior to enlistment in 1915.  Chris has his father's medals from WW2 but was unaware of his grandfather's service in WW1. He (Chris)  is descended from one of the younger sons born 1921, so possibly Burke's medals and any memorabilia went to his eldest son George Edward born 1911.

Regards David

[djbrown]

Further to my prior post, I have been able to find the photos and information I have from my Grandfathers time in the 1st AMB and the 19th MMG.  I previously only had a small part of this photo to post but now i have the entire one...Would I be right in thinking this is the 1st AMB? I also have a copy of the photo posted above from the Motorcycle magazine but  it seems to be a copy of the original photo and doesn't have the adornments from the magazine photo.

[djbrown]

Bisley photo of 1st AMB but not from the magazine article, possibly easier to identify individuals? I can certainly see my grandfather in this one.

 

Edited 29 May , 2022 by djbrown

[pjwmacro]

43 minutes ago, djbrown said:

Would I be right in thinking this is the 1st AMB?

Great photos - many thanks for sharing. I am almost sure they are both 1st AMB - prior to embarkation (so late 1915 early 1916). Can I suggest posting them in a 1st AMB thread: 

Regards, Paul

 

[djbrown]

48 minutes ago, pjwmacro said:

Great photos - many thanks for sharing. I am almost sure they are both 1st AMB - prior to embarkation (so late 1915 early 1916). Can I suggest posting them in a 1st AMB thread: 

Regards, Paul

 

thank you, yes Ive copied them to the 1st AMB thread (although it's not been active for some time) along with a list of names I have. I now know that my grandfather somehow transferred from 1st AMB to the 19th MMG at some point as I have found the document that refers to him being retained in Quetta as part of 19th MMG.

[djbrown]

Possibly a very standard document but maybe the date/signature may be of interest...

[pjwmacro]

34 minutes ago, djbrown said:

a very standard document but maybe the date/signature may be of interest...

Thanks for sharing. Do you know when your gfather was released? Presumably not long after this was signed? Or did he renain in tge regular army?

Best, Paul 

[djbrown]

Thanks Paul, I have a document showing that he was transferred to the reserve on 19th December 1919.

Not very clear in that copy but top left is: M.G.C RECORDS Z.R 50/

called up to ROYAL FIELD ARTILLERY

officers signature looks like Drummond and address appears to be a street in SW1

refers to M.G.C.M   rather than just MGC?

[djbrown]

I have also found the 3 war medals and ribbon bar, and I did remember correctly seeing a 1st AMB badge as I have it but sadly no MMG badge to go with it. 

[pjwmacro]

2 hours ago, djbrown said:

have a document showing that he was transferred to the reserve on 19th December 1919

So he was discharged at much the same time as my own grandfather was discharged from 22 Bty. The MMGS officially was subsumed into MGC(M) when the MGC was formed in Oct 1915. So no surprise his discharge was overseen by MGC records office. The "retained in India' document, signed 11 Nov 191o, was probably signed literally as he left India. The signature appears to be on behalf of Qutta division GOC  so not MGC related.

Regards

[david murdoch]

From the list of original personnel for 1st A.M.B. There is another  who I have listed as being 19th MMG.

807    Gunner Robert Robertson Hay  (possible)  Served with 19^th MMG

1996  Gunner James  McMorran  Served with 19^th MMG

[pjwmacro]

23 minutes ago, david murdoch said:

From the list of original personnel for 1st A.M.B. There is another  who I have listed as being 19th MMG.

807    Gunner Robert Robertson

Thanks David- I have both on the list of 19th Bty MMG in India, at the start of this thread 

Regards, Paul 

[david murdoch]

2 hours ago, pjwmacro said:

Thanks David- I have both on the list of 19th Bty MMG in India, at the start of this thread 

Regards, Paul 

Seeing them transferring from 1st A.M.B to 19th MMG is interesting, as both left the UK around the same time  19th MMG to France on 6th February 1916 and 1st A.M.B arrived in East Africa mid March. Also for me knowing these guys were both  from Carnwath  is interesting - I've seen another couple of MMGS men from there.

[mcassell]

Attached are some improved pictures (mostly converting original panchromatic images to modern), Enhancement of NCO picture clearly shows centre gentleman with Sam Browne belt wears MSM ribbon and has WO2 crown on sleeve. Pretty definite is BSM Adair.

Better pictures of Lieutenant Frank (No.1 section) and Lieutenant Erlebach (No. 3 Section).

[delta]

Excellent images - thank you for sharing these

 

[pjwmacro]

4 hours ago, mcassell said:

Attached are some improved pictures

Thanks for sharing these. Not sure we have seen the bottom image before?

[david murdoch]

52 minutes ago, pjwmacro said:

Thanks for sharing these. Not sure we have seen the bottom image before?

They were just low resolution snap of the album page. Cap badges in view are certainly MMGS, also MGC(M) shoulder titles and Sgt Burke's artificer badge above his stripes. In the picture with the officer with glasses the corporal next to him has an MM ribbon - I may be able to identify him from that. 

Edited 7 June , 2022 by david murdoch

[mcassell]

Attached are a few nice pictures from the Langford album of 19th MMG in the Bolan Pass in 1918. I did notice the wearer of the MM ribbon some years back but could not pin him down.