19th Motor Machine Gun Battery in India 1918 and 1919

[david murdoch]

3 hours ago, djbrown said:

Thank you. My mother's recollection is that they "joined up together" but she wasn't born until 22 years later so its entirely possible that it wasn't exactly the same day. I suppose that if they had to travel to a major town like Lanark to sign up there could potentially have been hundreds of young men queuing up at the same time, pals split up sent to different desks etc etc. 1892 would be about right, grandfather was 1889.

The service numbers do not always run  by date.  Sometimes can find a higher number with an earlier enlistment date. At this particular point in time the MMGS was projecting and recruiting for "up to 40 batteries". Men were being recruited through advertising in The Motorcycle newspaper and also MMGS had a mobile recruiting team travelling to specific areas. The men going via The Motorcycle would either send the form from the newspaper and then if called would travel to Coventry for an interview, or travel directly to Coventry to one of the selection days. Via the army, there were adverts run in all the major newspapers at several times -  July 1915 being the third round of recruiting - in Scotland The Daily Record and Scotsman, but also local papers including the Hamilton Advertiser. I'd say a fair chance they went over to Hamilton. There are other MMGS men from Hamilton, Coatbridge and Cumbusnethen. From what I know of my grandfather's enlistment he went to the recruiting office in Hope St in Glasgow and was then sent up to Blythswood Square to the Royal Scottish Automobile Club where the MMGS had motorbikes  to do practical evaluation. You had to demonstrate not only that you could ride one around the square but show knowledge of how it worked and be able to carry out running repairs. I've looked at close numbers to my grandfather to see if there were any mates he joined up with or if he just saw the ad in the papers and went along. Once pre selected you were given a rail warrant  down to Bisley where your enlistment paper would be approved and you would receives service number. This also accounts for discrepancies in the numbering as some men enlisted, but others got to Bisley quicker. There were also men from quite out of the way places, who obviously travelled quite a way specifically to enlist in MMGS.  Also on one part of the medal roll it clearly goes alphabetical, which implies they had a lot of recruits at one time and divided them up by name for processing.

[david murdoch]

2 hours ago, pjwmacro said:

That should help - and I have a long list which i would like to see! But sadly I am in the Netherlands for just over another year before retirement, so I cannot see myself doing a research visit anytime soon. If I hear of any friends going then I`ll make a request!  Regards, Paul

 I'm still stuck in Brazil so limited to online/digital material!

[mcassell]

Re cap badges. First attached is pic of (presumably) 5MMg at Bisley October 1915, all wearing standard MGC badges. Pic came from album/collection of BSM Amos Hill (second pic), late No. 10 (Scotch) MMG Battery, C Battalion Heavy Branch, showing "full' MMGS badge set! Third is pic showing 'MMGS' shoulder title. Never seen one of these in 50 years despite badgering assorted badge collectors, always thought MGC Motors men had to break off the 'S' from shoulder title rather than cap badge.

[david murdoch]

2 hours ago, pjwmacro said:

@abowell97 @david murdoch @mcassell

Sjt Burke?? First Picture is from the 22 Bty thread.  I am pretty certain it's him in the middle of mcassell's pictures (does the sidecap indicate ASC rather than MMGS??). Less certain about last picture.

Regards, Paul

 

 

 

Put these together so can have a better comparison. In the picture on the left in the group photo are a couple who look to be wearing MMG cap badges and a couple more including him who may be. Obviously were certain units the CO turned a blind eye to the MGC cap badge regulation probably if he was originally MMGS himself and depending where they were. Looks like 22nd followed the regulation. Pretty sure left and centre are the same man - that makes Burke MMGS/MGC(M)  rather than ASC and section Sgt of No. 2 Section. If he's wearing an MMG cap badge then he would have to have enlisted/joined in 1915 so have a sub 3000 MMGS number, but I've never found a good match.

[david murdoch]

10 minutes ago, mcassell said:

Re cap badges. First attached is pic of (presumably) 5MMg at Bisley October 1915, all wearing standard MGC badges. Pic came from album/collection of BSM Amos Hill (second pic), late No. 10 (Scotch) MMG Battery, C Battalion Heavy Branch, showing "full' MMGS badge set! Third is pic showing 'MMGS' shoulder title. Never seen one of these in 50 years despite badgering assorted badge collectors, always thought MGC Motors men had to break off the 'S' from shoulder title rather than cap badge.

 

 

 

1st photo is not 5th Battery - they were in France by October 1915. Also their CO Major Alkin is well known.  October 1915 would have 17th to 28th  batteries in the UK. I'll try and match the officers and faces to other photos I have. They (5th) started off with RFA cap badges in December 1914 and it was one of their men who designed the crossed guns MMGS badge. There were letters of complaint to the editor of The Motorcycle regarding the hijacking of the badge by the MGC (from MMGS men in the field) and it clearly mentions breaking letters off the badge. It would appear many saved their original badge rather than do this. I have my grandfather's - he served until end of 1919, but kept his MMG badge and not an MGC one. In addition to this there were submissions of ideas for a new badge for the MGC(M) as they were keen to keep their own identity and "elite status". They did for sure keep using the Motor Machine Guns shoulder patches throughout the war.  Per the 22nd Battery thread, they used one as a puggaree badge, and also had individual battery shoulder titles.

[mcassell]

Always doubted it was No 5 MMG because of date. Thought maybe 5 LAB before going to East Africa. Have Boer War medals of 5 LAB CO, Scriven, very unsavoury character, got cashiered for embezzeling Battery funds and 'familiarity with a native'??! Pic of 'No 5' came in a box of ephemera relating to No. 10 (Scotch) Battery and Amos Hill though enclosed 'muster' shows few Scotsmen, most with addresses in Coventry, Birmingham and Wolverhampton. Wonder how battery acquired the designation 'Scotch'?

[mcassell]

So glad of this thread and others related to MMGS/MGC Motors. Huge amount of unwritten history related to them, from Bowes-Lyon to escorting Edward POW in India, armoured cars at Jallianwala Bagh to disaster in Kurdistan, corrupt OC in East Africa to TE Lawrences Hedjaz ' rubies' and suicide of OC 17 MMG because couldnt get m/c s to run in desert. Have medals, ephemera, to Gunner Palphreyman, ran Paul Freeman's circus in Blackpool and MGC Motors concert party in Baghdad, the Magics

[mcassell]

Sorry, power went out before made full stop. Sincerely hope one of you writes definitive history of MMGS/MGC Motors.

[mcassell]

Didnt add coda to reference to the 'Magics'. One member was Oscar winner Victor McLagen! Mr Palphreyman was not chum Paul Freeman of clown Charlie Carioli, as per family rememberances, but did run circus in Blackpool.

[pjwmacro]

19 hours ago, david murdoch said:

so have a sub 3000 MMGS number, but I've never found a good match.

So Burke remains something of an enigma.

[pjwmacro]

17 hours ago, mcassell said:

writes definitive history of MMGS/MGC Motors.

Fully agree it is a task that needs to be tackled, but I think @david murdochis the man! David has a much broader knowledge and understanding than I do. I made a start with Action at Badama Post (but very 22 Bty/third Afghan war focused).   And then there is Bryan Perrett's British Armoured Car Operations in WW1 - which again is pretty thin on anything outside Russia and the Middle East.

Regards, Paul

[david murdoch]

8 hours ago, pjwmacro said:

So Burke remains something of an enigma.

Still searching for him. If this latest photo discounts him being ASC then he had to MMGS/MGC(M). There is  a Burke casualty to 19th MMG. Gunner 38659 Henry Coleman Burke  KiA  8th October 1917 aged 32. So I was wondering if related to Sgt. Burke  - he also being an older man.

He was one of three 19th MMG battery members killed that day  - The war diary last entry month  is September 1917 so still not sure what happened to them. They obviously died together and found in unmarked grave(s)  at map reference  J.25.b.3.7. (just south of Wytschaete)  then reburied together at Hooge Crater Cemetery. The same map area is in the war diary 

In addition Gunner Wolstenhulme was an original battery member enlisting 28/7/1915. Listed in The Motorcycle 29/7/1915. He is mentioned several times in the war diary, had been previously wounded in May 1917 and going on leave August 1917. He received a replacement headstone in 1993 with the following inscription "THE SEARCH HAS ENDED I KNEW NOT WHERE YOU LAY REST IN PEACE DEAR FATHER EDITH, 8TH OCTOBER 1993"  Edith Wolstenhulme was his daughter born June 1918 . She died 2004

I need to revisit and scour the 19th MMG war diary for names and numbers. I was sure I had done this one  but now seeing a couple of names I have not logged on my spreadsheet.  Also there is a war diary  entry 1st July 1917  stating "Lt England was severely wounded in both legs and sent down to No. 53 CCS". I suspect that put him out of the war and accounts for his being retired April 1918 and subsequent Silver War Badge. He was replaced in the battery by 2nd Lt F G Squire 

Edited 12 January , 2022 by david murdoch

[ss002d6252]

This is Burke's widows' pension claim.

https://www.fold3.com/image/668360490?terms=burke,38659

Craig

[pjwmacro]

On 10/01/2022 at 22:06, mcassell said:

(Sergeant Peck

I have tried a search - but it is needles in haystacks! I don't suppose you can recall a potential first name??

4 hours ago, ss002d6252 said:

This is Burke's widows' pension claim

Thank you for sharing.

[pjwmacro]

4 hours ago, david murdoch said:

Also there is a war diary  entry 1st July 1917  stating "Lt England was severely wounded in both legs and sent down to No. 53 CCS". I suspect that put him out of the war and accounts for his being retired April 1918 and subsequent Silver War Badge. He was replaced in the battery by 2nd Lt F G Squire

Thank you for this - which kind of confirms that, so far as officers in India are concerned, Benjamin England is definitely a red herring.

[david murdoch]

21 minutes ago, pjwmacro said:

Thank you for this - which kind of confirms that, so far as officers in India are concerned, Benjamin England is definitely a red herring.

From the war diary firing charts/instructions from late September 1917. 

OC Captain Carnochan

No.1 Section Lt Erlebach 

No.2 Section Lt Perry

No.3 Section Lt Harris 

[mcassell]

Except for Erlebach, no mention of Carnochan, Perry or Harris in 19 MMG album I have. Have a Lieutenant Perry mrntioned in photo album of No 7 AMB but never pinned him down.

[mcassell]

16 hours ago, pjwmacro said:

I have tried a search - but it is needles in haystacks! I don't suppose you can recall a potential first name??

Thank you for sharing.

Same here. Lived Conyers, Aldrington, Gleneagle Roads in Streatham area in 1950s. No joy with Censuses or MICs. Have packet of photos and medal (1914 Star) from Gunner Ernest Palmer who served with TEL in Hedjaz, found not a trace in records for 50 years. Maybe you or Mr Murdoch can run down men on-line.

[david murdoch]

9 hours ago, mcassell said:

Same here. Lived Conyers, Aldrington, Gleneagle Roads in Streatham area in 1950s. No joy with Censuses or MICs. Have packet of photos and medal (1914 Star) from Gunner Ernest Palmer who served with TEL in Hedjaz, found not a trace in records for 50 years. Maybe you or Mr Murdoch can run down men on-line.

I can have a look for sure. He's on a list I have of Hejaz people, but I don't have him being on my spreadsheet of original MMGS men. On saying that it was late on 1917 into 1918 and so quite a few replacements have later MGC(Motors) service numbers.  Probably best to post up on another thread.  These threads are really meant for the  individual MMG  batteries  (and specifically time in India). However there are some other threads of interest - there is a specific one for 5th MMG Battery. There is also long running thread on Rolls Royce Armoured cars which has been a good catch all for various units and previously unseen photos. There are also several TE Lawrence  threads. You can also message me direct with his service number. 

 

[david murdoch]

12 hours ago, mcassell said:

Except for Erlebach, no mention of Carnochan, Perry or Harris in 19 MMG album I have. Have a Lieutenant Perry mrntioned in photo album of No 7 AMB but never pinned him down.

Lt. Perry was James Armstrong Perry . He was  an early MMGS man and ex Gunner 383 with 1st MMG Battery  - went to France with them in December 1914 then commissioned in MGC 30/4/1916. He was from South Wales and seen getting married there in June 1920. His wife was still in Haverfordwest in 1939 married with two daughters - but he seems to have been elsewhere.  I don't have a death record for him. but his wife and one of the daughters later died in Haverfordwest..  Given his position with 19th Battery  just prior going to India and then he being linked to 7th A.M.B. Most likely  he went to India with the battery and then transferred  over to the A.M.B. There are other transfers from 3rd MMG - experienced NCO's going to A.M.B.s, and also they were bringing in experienced armoured car people from Mesopotamia. So it looks like with trouble brewing they were placing  combat experienced officers and NCOs into the A.M.Bs to bolster them and/or assist training them up. Also by the end of the war there were more MMG units in India than on the Western Front. There was obviously a decision to send them there taken in late 1917 rather than just  disband them and roll the personnel into the Tank Corps.  This was likely taken based on the performance of 22nd MMG.

[djbrown]

On 11/01/2022 at 14:41, david murdoch said:

The service numbers do not always run  by date.  Sometimes can find a higher number with an earlier enlistment date. At this particular point in time the MMGS was projecting and recruiting for "up to 40 batteries". Men were being recruited through advertising in The Motorcycle newspaper and also MMGS had a mobile recruiting team travelling to specific areas. The men going via The Motorcycle would either send the form from the newspaper and then if called would travel to Coventry for an interview, or travel directly to Coventry to one of the selection days. Via the army, there were adverts run in all the major newspapers at several times -  July 1915 being the third round of recruiting - in Scotland The Daily Record and Scotsman, but also local papers including the Hamilton Advertiser. I'd say a fair chance they went over to Hamilton. There are other MMGS men from Hamilton, Coatbridge and Cumbusnethen. From what I know of my grandfather's enlistment he went to the recruiting office in Hope St in Glasgow and was then sent up to Blythswood Square to the Royal Scottish Automobile Club where the MMGS had motorbikes  to do practical evaluation. You had to demonstrate not only that you could ride one around the square but show knowledge of how it worked and be able to carry out running repairs. I've looked at close numbers to my grandfather to see if there were any mates he joined up with or if he just saw the ad in the papers and went along. Once pre selected you were given a rail warrant  down to Bisley where your enlistment paper would be approved and you would receives service number. This also accounts for discrepancies in the numbering as some men enlisted, but others got to Bisley quicker. There were also men from quite out of the way places, who obviously travelled quite a way specifically to enlist in MMGS.  Also on one part of the medal roll it clearly goes alphabetical, which implies they had a lot of recruits at one time and divided them up by name for processing.

Thanks David, fantastic information. I'm wondering though, would they also recruit men just as gunners rather than riders/drivers? We have no knowledge to suggest that my gf had any experience of motorbikes at all (although there certainly has been a trait in the family in the generations since). Unfortunately my uncles who were a fair bit older than my mother are no longer with us either so no-one else to ask. I assume he would have started his trade by that age but a motorbike wouldn't do much for a painter & decorator!

[david murdoch]

33 minutes ago, djbrown said:

Thanks David, fantastic information. I'm wondering though, would they also recruit men just as gunners rather than riders/drivers? We have no knowledge to suggest that my gf had any experience of motorbikes at all (although there certainly has been a trait in the family in the generations since). Unfortunately my uncles who were a fair bit older than my mother are no longer with us either so no-one else to ask. I assume he would have started his trade by that age but a motorbike wouldn't do much for a painter & decorator!

My grandfather did not own a motorbike at that time (as he could not afford one). He was actually a buyer for Glasgow fruit market, but obviously had an interest and probably had ridden a friend's bike - he had to pass a practical to be accepted. The same with those enlisting through The Motorcycle - they were interviewed by the editor and with a few questions he would easily spot anyone bluffing it. The general newspaper adverts also certainly pushed the "elite" aspect of the formation. Not everybody would have to be a top end motorcyclist, but overall the recruitment was very selective and they were able to pick and choose as they had many more applicants than they had places for. They recruited a lot of men from the motorcycle industry and from the racing and trials riding scene. Really primarily you would be selected due to motorcycle aptitude then once at the training centre they would select men with an aptitude for the machine guns to be No.1 or No.2 gunners. From my research it's clear they took in quite a high proportion of people with technical backgrounds and also there is a high rate of commissions from the ranks, but really it was down to individual suitability. 

[mcassell]

After looking thru my MMGS/MGC (M) officers database, the IGSM rolls and MICs, I may have have found a possible answer to the discrepancy between known 19 MMG officers (and men) and those who received the IGSM.

First, the AC and AG India criteria for an award specify that to be eligible for the IGSM by virtue of service in Baluchistan one had have been involved in supporting troops of the East Persia Cordon. 19 MMG spent 1918 and first half of 1919 patrolling the vital Quetta-Hindubagh-Peshin road in support of the Cordon. However, only 2 sections were involved, according to OH, as previously noted. It seems a distinct possibilty that these sections were commanded by Lieutenants Ketley and Turner, who qualified for the medal. Other officers (including the likely CO, Captain Carnochan, may have remained in Quetta.

Second, AOs issued in 1919 required COs of all units to provide lists of their personnel who were eligible for medals for WW1 service. Thus, the poor old CO at Quetta would have had to provide lists of ALL Battery personnel qualified for medals, irrespective of whether they were still with the unit in India (e.g. Captain England).

[mcassell]

Sorry, should have read Quetta-Hindubagh/Peshin - New Chaman road. Forgot to mention important broad guage railway from Quetta to Fort Sandeman. According to OH (page 96), 19 MMG were Internal Security troops during 3rd Afghan War.

[david murdoch]

6 hours ago, mcassell said:

After looking thru my MMGS/MGC (M) officers database, the IGSM rolls and MICs, I may have have found a possible answer to the discrepancy between known 19 MMG officers (and men) and those who received the IGSM.

First, the AC and AG India criteria for an award specify that to be eligible for the IGSM by virtue of service in Baluchistan one had have been involved in supporting troops of the East Persia Cordon. 19 MMG spent 1918 and first half of 1919 patrolling the vital Quetta-Hindubagh-Peshin road in support of the Cordon. However, only 2 sections were involved, according to OH, as previously noted. It seems a distinct possibilty that these sections were commanded by Lieutenants Ketley and Turner, who qualified for the medal. Other officers (including the likely CO, Captain Carnochan, may have remained in Quetta.

Second, AOs issued in 1919 required COs of all units to provide lists of their personnel who were eligible for medals for WW1 service. Thus, the poor old CO at Quetta would have had to provide lists of ALL Battery personnel qualified for medals, irrespective of whether they were still with the unit in India (e.g. Captain England).

Yes it's a similar pattern also seen with 3rd 15th and 22nd Batteries  and obviously  depended on who was where at given times. There are a lower number of officers qualified, and this probably reflect sections being out under command of experienced Sergeants. In addition there are a few battery  ASC hands with IGSMs which  likely represents No.1 and No.2 drivers for a section's support truck and probably fitter/mechanic who went with them. Same appears to have been true in Mesopotamia with the armoured cars  after the war with all the demobilisations and change outs - a two car section could be commanded by a Sergeant with more experience than an incoming 2nd Lieutenant. 14th MMG were based at Jubbulpur (Jabalpur) so not in the conflict area. Proportionally there is a higher number in 3rd MMG of original MMGS men and some show up serving with A.M.Bs who must have transferred from the MMG batteries after arriving in India.

 

Edited 18 January , 2022 by david murdoch