19th Motor Machine Gun Battery in India 1918 and 1919

[david murdoch]

3 hours ago, mcassell said:

Attached are photos of (left) Lieutenant G.T. Turner and Lieutenant A.M. Ketley. The picture of Turner, formerly of the exclusive Royal East Kent Yeomanry, later commissioned in MGC (Cavalry) and MID for Mesopotamia, was included with paperwork accompanying medals. Though no specific mention of 19 MMG, a letter to his father dated 1 September 1919 indicates Turner was then at Deolali awaiting a ship to UK. The picture of Lieutenant Ketley comes from an annotated photograph album made by Lieutenant J.L. Wood MC of 8 LAMB in Mesopotamia. He was originally a POM in the RNAS before commissioning in MMGS. He did not apply for his medals until 1939 and hence his IGSM is a Royal, rather than Calcutta, Mint issue.

My feeling is that the officers with 19MMG in 1918 had all gone home by early 1919 - Baluchistan is not the healthiest of places with endemic malaria and dengue - and Ketley and Turner, on their way home via India, were co-opted as replacements and served in the Afghan War. Both men left India after the Afghan War and were replaced by Allnatt and others though admittedly the latter may not have claimed the IGSM for Afghanistan.

 

 

Lt. Wood is mentioned in L.A.M.B Brigade war diary 25th May 1918 with an immediate award of the MC. Wood is also seen signing off the 8th L.A.M.B war diary. Unfortunately the battery war diary is a bit shambolic and parts missing - including May 18 so not sure what action he won the MC for. Ketley is seen joining 8th L.A.B in France 24/2/1917 Wood was also 8th L.A.B and seen promoting to Lieutenant in April 1917 so both would have gone from there to Mesopotamia with 8th L.A.M.B. 

[david murdoch]

On 06/01/2022 at 17:32, mcassell said:

Few corrections and additions. The photo album was created by Lieutenant F.G. Squire (OC No. 2 Section) and presumably he took the top picture which shows the other two Battery section officers: on the left, with mustache, is Lieutenant W.B. Erlebach (No. 3 Section) and next to him with pipe is Lieutenant C. M. Frank. I can confirm that Captain (later Major) Archibald Gray was OC the original battery in France but whether he went to India is unclear. Two other officers are potential 19 MMG members: the MIC of Lieutenant W.L. Allnatt lists 19 MMG Battery but no details. He was in India in 1919, attached to No. 5 AMB; a Captain B. England, ex-19MMG Battery, is listed in the MGC Officers Association membership list for 1934.

The 1918 campaign in Baluchistan involved punitive actions against the Marri tribe who had made a serious attack on Gumbaz Fort on 19 February 1918, nearly capturing it (Gen Monro's despatch 13 September 1918 refers).

W.L. Allnatt  was William Leslie Allnatt  Born 7/12/1887 in Hurst Berkshire - died 26/08/1957 Victoria, Australia. There are some conflicting dates in his documents. By his MIC he was in Australia, but he married in UK in London in 1926 and he is on the England 1939 register occupation Bengal Pilot  Service (retired). He shows up in UK and Australian records and several ships passenger lists.

He was originally Sgt. 1207 MMGS and commissioned MGC(M) 23/9/1917. However he's also noted as being Lt in 2nd Kings African Rifles (and on their medal roll as such) and listed MG Corps. His original service number fits in with others being original 19th MMG battery member, and no 1915 Star as they only went to France February 1916. I'll need to check the war diary but likely will find him leaving 19th MMG in summer 1917. Probable after commission he ended up in East Africa and involved with armoured cars there and then to India with 5th A.M.B He would have got his original BWM/VM entitlement with 19th MMG in France. 

Benjamin England shows up as a Lieutenant with 19th MMG in France (in the war diary) Born 14th December 1897 Bolton Lancashire. Commissioned 2nd Lieutenant from Kings Own Yorkshire Light Infantry 15/9/1915 and attached MMGS. He was "retired" from K.O.Y.L.I  23/4/1918  and has a Silver War Badge dated 17/6/1918. After the war he is seen in the records as being a Mechanical Engineer. He died in Helston, Cornwall  18/12/1978.

 

[mcassell]

Captain Wood's MC is engraved '29 March 1919'. The actual date is 29 March 1918, as per Order of the Day 107 (26 May 1918) with medals. I think I may have the answer to 'shambolic' nature of 8 LAMB diary. When I first examined diary at then PRO in late 1970s, there was a note saying documents had been removed in 1936/1937. Did not mean much at the time until browsing through 'higher formations' records found that CO of 8 LAMB from January to September 1919 was Captain Michael C H Bowes-Lyon, brother of late Queen Mother, the Queen's Uncle. From what little I have researched, he was a POW until 1918 and was sent to Mesopotamia/Iraq to improve his lungs. 8 LAMB lost two RR armoured cars in Kurdistan while his eminence was breathing lovely air in Baghdad so wonder whether his record was 'weeded' at some time around his sister becoming Queen. Of note - though not to MMG battery enthusiasts - the grandfather of late friend was Royal Watchmaker to Scotland in early 1900s to 1930s. She said her grandfather was scared to go to Glamis Castle to do repairs because of insane brother of Queen Mother trying to shoot him! 

[david murdoch]

1 hour ago, mcassell said:

Captain Wood's MC is engraved '29 March 1919'. The actual date is 29 March 1918, as per Order of the Day 107 (26 May 1918) with medals. I think I may have the answer to 'shambolic' nature of 8 LAMB diary. When I first examined diary at then PRO in late 1970s, there was a note saying documents had been removed in 1936/1937. Did not mean much at the time until browsing through 'higher formations' records found that CO of 8 LAMB from January to September 1919 was Captain Michael C H Bowes-Lyon, brother of late Queen Mother, the Queen's Uncle. From what little I have researched, he was a POW until 1918 and was sent to Mesopotamia/Iraq to improve his lungs. 8 LAMB lost two RR armoured cars in Kurdistan while his eminence was breathing lovely air in Baghdad so wonder whether his record was 'weeded' at some time around his sister becoming Queen. Of note - though not to MMG battery enthusiasts - the grandfather of late friend was Royal Watchmaker to Scotland in early 1900s to 1930s. She said her grandfather was scared to go to Glamis Castle to do repairs because of insane brother of Queen Mother trying to shoot him! 

Actually it was a story that I'd had from my mother many years ago that my grandfather had served with a Bowes-Lyon. When I checked up on him I found he'd been a POW. He is noted in the Brigade war diary arriving Baghdad 8th April 1919 and proceeding  to 8th L.A.M.B. he was there until 4th September 1919. I was also told many years ago that some of the 8th War diary had been considered  "stolen".  Also there is another period missing, but the same months are missing from other battery diaries - so implies a package was lost or went astray. The L.A.M.B Brigade war diary is very useful as being headquarters it was typed so clear and legible. Its more concerned with battery/section movements , but there is a lot noted of officer movements especially after November 1918 there was a big turnover. Several officers and some men transferred to India, but being armoured car hands they mostly went to the existing A.M.Bs in India  - probably to beef up combat experience. There are also some who transferred from the MMG batteries to A.M.Bs (NCOs and by their low service numbers old MMGS hands with combat experience in France).  

[djbrown]

Very grateful for the information posted already, I have tried off and on over the years to find information about my grandfather who I knew served in the MMG.

We're quite sure that he's the chap in the photo partly obscured by the officer's shoulder. 

1996 Gunner James McMorran  from Carnwath, Lanarkshire.

Unfortunately I gave what info I had away to another family member a few years ago but I am presently trying to get hold of this again now, in the hope that it might be of interest to you folks on here. I had a photo of the Corp all together but it's not in theatre whether it's the 19th or a bigger group I will have to see it again and of course I will post on here as soon as I get it.  I also had a piece of paper which clearly mentioned Quetta and from memory he was medically discharged with Malaria but I have a funny feeling this was done in East Africa?   However I will endeavour to get back the info I had and as soon as I do I will post it on here.

[mcassell]

I have several more group pics of 19 MMG which may contain better image of your grandfather. If he served at Quetta it is most likely with 19 MMG. The only other MG related unit there was No. 8 Armoured Motor Battery which operated a single Willys 'armoured car' armed with a Victorian era Nordenfelt machine gun. I have some greasy, well-used Willys manuals given to me by the Battery Sergeant who said men were all Royal Sussex, not MGC. Certainly he wasnt, according to MIC.

[djbrown]

Thank you! The other photo I had was given to me by another relative so perhaps it’s already in the public domain but I will do what I can to get it and the other items to hand. His war medal was in there too with NWF on it I’m certain of that. By the way, apologies if I shouldn’t have used your photo for annotation without asking first. 

[david murdoch]

1 hour ago, djbrown said:

Thank you! The other photo I had was given to me by another relative so perhaps it’s already in the public domain but I will do what I can to get it and the other items to hand. His war medal was in there too with NWF on it I’m certain of that. By the way, apologies if I shouldn’t have used your photo for annotation without asking first. 

Here is the medal roll for the India General Service Medal, which notes his battery. By his service number I have him enlisting in Motor Machine Gun Service 27th July 1915, and through the travelling MMGS recruitment team who were in Scotland at that time. So within the MMGS there is a group of service numbers around his mainly Scottish. 2027 James Shaw Rennie   who died 6/8/1918 in  Quetta was from Paisley. Numbers next to his mostly ended up in armoured cars specifically 14th L.A.M.B in Mesopotamia and 1st A.M.B in East Africa. 

[pjwmacro]

@mcassell and @david murdoch Attempting to pull together some of the previous discussion as to the officers of 19 Bty MMG in India - which plainly changed between 1918 and 1919. 

So for 1918, I think we have:

OC - possibly still Capt/Maj Archibald Gray - but more likely Captain Ernest Henry Carnochan

2ic: potentially Carnochan or Lt Maurice Arthur Haines or Lt William Leslie Allnatt (although last appears to have commissioned, gone to East Africa and and then to India with 5th A.M.B)

No 1 Section Lt Charles M Frank (Gloucersters)

No2 Section: Lt FG Squire

No 3 Section: Lt WB Erlebach

And then for Third Afghan War 1919:

OC / 2ic: No clear clues, Carnochan probably most likely candidate - but none of Gray, Carnochan or Haines appear on the IGSM 1919 medal roll (at least not that I can find yet). And Allnatt was definitely with 5 AMB by this stage

Section Officers: Lts G.T. Turner and A.M. Ketley (IGSM medal roll evidence) and possibly Lt WB Erlebach (although he does not appear on the medal roll) - third section could have been commanded by a sjt.  

A brigade war diary might help if it includes monthly returns (60 Inf Bde's does for 22 Bty in the Kurram theatre and gives numbers of officers and men on strength).

Capt Benjamin England is a red herring - he was 19 MMGB in France, but so far as I can tell, never deployed to India.

 

[pjwmacro]

5 hours ago, djbrown said:

I had a photo of the Corp all together but it's not in theatre whether it's the 19th or a bigger group I will have to see it again and of course I will post on here as soon as I get it.  

Welcome to the forum. Look forward to seeing any photos etc you are happy to share.

Regards, Paul

[djbrown]

4 hours ago, david murdoch said:

Here is the medal roll for the India General Service Medal, which notes his battery. By his service number I have him enlisting in Motor Machine Gun Service 27th July 1915, and through the travelling MMGS recruitment team who were in Scotland at that time. So within the MMGS there is a group of service numbers around his mainly Scottish. 2027 James Shaw Rennie   who died 6/8/1918 in  Quetta was from Paisley. Numbers next to his mostly ended up in armoured cars specifically 14th L.A.M.B in Mesopotamia and 1st A.M.B in East Africa. 

Thank you so much David, that is amazing information to have. The very day he signed up! My mother thinks he signed up at the same time as a friend of his called Bob Robertson. I see in the list above (of the 19th) that there is a Robertson-Hay mentioned but the number is very different to my grandfathers. Also my mother is sure the chap in question wouldn't have had a double-barrelled surname either! (certainly was not known by it) Bob Robertson also made it home after the war and ran a wee shop/petrol pump whilst my grandfather was a painter & decorator. So if joining in 1915 he would have been in France too? Ive only ever had the reference to Quetta and possibly E Africa .

[djbrown]

2 hours ago, pjwmacro said:

Welcome to the forum. Look forward to seeing any photos etc you are happy to share.

Regards, Paul

Thank you. I'm really wishing I hadn't passed that stuff on now but at the time I had tried and failed to get any more information. On a very rare trip to London many years ago I tried to get to Kew but soon discovered that using the tube on a Saturday is a nightmare and simply had to give up. The photo I have is probably well known but I would dearly like to see the other bit of paper with Quetta and E Africa mentioned on it. I'm wondering if the unit went to E Africa after the NWF or if he would have been a medical transfer as he had Malaria?

[mcassell]

Another pic of 19 MMG at Quetta - hope better pic of yr Grandfather, Mr McMurran. Will try and scan whole album in near future. Re officer list for 19 MMG, do not think either Major Gray or Captain Carnochan went to India. I looked at embarkation rolls in TNA/PRO some years back and neither is mentioned as leaving with 19 MMG (though Lieutenant Squire is). Guess their service records will tell.

[david murdoch]

1 hour ago, pjwmacro said:

@mcassell and @david murdoch Attempting to pull together some of the previous discussion as to the officers of 19 Bty MMG in India - which plainly changed between 1918 and 1919. 

So for 1918, I think we have:

OC - possibly still Capt/Maj Archibald Gray - but more likely Captain Ernest Henry Carnochan

2ic: potentially Carnochan or Lt Maurice Arthur Haines or Lt William Leslie Allnatt (although last appears to have commissioned, gone to East Africa and and then to India with 5th A.M.B)

No 1 Section Lt Charles M Frank (Gloucersters)

No2 Section: Lt FG Squire

No 3 Section: Lt WB Erlebach

And then for Third Afghan War 1919:

OC / 2ic: No clear clues, Carnochan probably most likely candidate - but none of Gray, Carnochan or Haines appear on the IGSM 1919 medal roll (at least not that I can find yet). And Allnatt was definitely with 5 AMB by this stage

Section Officers: Lts G.T. Turner and A.M. Ketley (IGSM medal roll evidence) and possibly Lt WB Erlebach (although he does not appear on the medal roll) - third section could have been commanded by a sjt.  

A brigade war diary might help if it includes monthly returns (60 Inf Bde's does for 22 Bty in the Kurram theatre and gives numbers of officers and men on strength).

Capt Benjamin England is a red herring - he was 19 MMGB in France, but so far as I can tell, never deployed to India.

 

 

2 hours ago, pjwmacro said:

@mcassell and @david murdoch Attempting to pull together some of the previous discussion as to the officers of 19 Bty MMG in India - which plainly changed between 1918 and 1919. 

So for 1918, I think we have:

OC - possibly still Capt/Maj Archibald Gray - but more likely Captain Ernest Henry Carnochan

2ic: potentially Carnochan or Lt Maurice Arthur Haines or Lt William Leslie Allnatt (although last appears to have commissioned, gone to East Africa and and then to India with 5th A.M.B)

No 1 Section Lt Charles M Frank (Gloucersters)

No2 Section: Lt FG Squire

No 3 Section: Lt WB Erlebach

And then for Third Afghan War 1919:

OC / 2ic: No clear clues, Carnochan probably most likely candidate - but none of Gray, Carnochan or Haines appear on the IGSM 1919 medal roll (at least not that I can find yet). And Allnatt was definitely with 5 AMB by this stage

Section Officers: Lts G.T. Turner and A.M. Ketley (IGSM medal roll evidence) and possibly Lt WB Erlebach (although he does not appear on the medal roll) - third section could have been commanded by a sjt.  

A brigade war diary might help if it includes monthly returns (60 Inf Bde's does for 22 Bty in the Kurram theatre and gives numbers of officers and men on strength).

Capt Benjamin England is a red herring - he was 19 MMGB in France, but so far as I can tell, never deployed to India.

 

I'm pretty sure it was Carnochan who took the battery to India. He signed off as Captain and OC on the last war diary from France (September 1917). Gray came and went a couple of times prior to this. He was promoted Major in 14th July 1916 and  shows up on the Army List MGC(M) 1917 and 1918 in brackets "War Office" He seems to have taken quite a lot of leave and Carnochan filled in as OC. He (Gray) signed off August 1916, then 2nd September was granted 10 days sick leave, then 15th September has Carnochan returning from leave and assuming command of the battery, then 16th October officially promoted to Captain. 

I believe Gray, Allnatt and England have 19th MMG noted on their MICs as when the rolls were submitted they would have been with the battery at their respective dates of entry - not in India at the time the roll was submitted. Gray's date of entry is 6/2/1916 - the day the battery landed in France.

[david murdoch]

34 minutes ago, djbrown said:

Thank you so much David, that is amazing information to have. The very day he signed up! My mother thinks he signed up at the same time as a friend of his called Bob Robertson. I see in the list above (of the 19th) that there is a Robertson-Hay mentioned but the number is very different to my grandfathers. Also my mother is sure the chap in question wouldn't have had a double-barrelled surname either! (certainly was not known by it) Bob Robertson also made it home after the war and ran a wee shop/petrol pump whilst my grandfather was a painter & decorator. So if joining in 1915 he would have been in France too? Ive only ever had the reference to Quetta and possibly E Africa .

Yes I have  Gunner  807 Robert Robertson Hay on my spreadsheet. Identified as 19th MMG from the GSM medal roll. His surname is Hay born Gorbals 1895 died Partick 1958. By his number joined MMGS April 1916 possibly as a transfer from another regiment. I don't have a Robert Robertson with a close service number to your grandfather( 100 up or down). Right at that time the service numbers climbed very steeply due to targeted recruitment  - my grandfather enlisted the same week in Glasgow but was 2133 - basically dozens enlisting and straight down to Bisley. There are quite a lot of gaps on the MGC(Motors) roll  - often men transferred to Heavy Branch then Tanks. A possible for him is  Private  200057 Robert Robertson Tank Corps  who was previously  Gunner 1736 MMGS and ex 24th MMG Battery. He has a Silver War Badge record which gives his enlistment date as 15th July 1915. He was discharged from Tank Corps  wounded 26/4/1919. However he shows on a casualty list December 1917 as being from Greenock.  24th MMG went to France same day as 19th, but were disbanded in November 1916 and rolled into MGC Heavy Branch. The one you are looking for was likely born 1892 in Carnwath. You can see by this that in a couple of weeks MMGS took on 400 odd.

[david murdoch]

1 hour ago, mcassell said:

Another pic of 19 MMG at Quetta - hope better pic of yr Grandfather, Mr McMurran. Will try and scan whole album in near future. Re officer list for 19 MMG, do not think either Major Gray or Captain Carnochan went to India. I looked at embarkation rolls in TNA/PRO some years back and neither is mentioned as leaving with 19 MMG (though Lieutenant Squire is). Guess their service records will tell.

Interesting  there is one man at the back behind the officer is probably ASC by his cap badge. There are a couple on the right (looking at the picture) look to be wearing MMGS cap badges and possibly the Sergeant and a couple of others. Then one man clearly wearing a plain MGC badge.

[mcassell]

Still doubt Captain Carnochan was OC Battery in India. No mention in photo album which is well anotated. One of us should get his service record from TNA. Surprised by yr surprise at ASC badge - most MMG, LAMB, LACB, LCP and AMB had ASC drivers. Gentleman (Sergeant Peck, though dont quote me on name, it is over 50 years ago!) who gave me Willys manuals was ex Royal Sussex and ASC. He ran West Streatham Sidecar Club in 1950s (I was born raised in south London, Balham, Streatham, Brixton). Friend of his, neighbour of mine, ran a 5/6 hp Clyno with homemade canvas covered side car - got to ride in it! - in late 1950s. Have his long slider (puggaree) MMG cap badge. Wished had written down  his name as served in India. 

[david murdoch]

4 hours ago, mcassell said:

Still doubt Captain Carnochan was OC Battery in India. No mention in photo album which is well anotated. One of us should get his service record from TNA. Surprised by yr surprise at ASC badge - most MMG, LAMB, LACB, LCP and AMB had ASC drivers. Gentleman (Sergeant Peck, though dont quote me on name, it is over 50 years ago!) who gave me Willys manuals was ex Royal Sussex and ASC. He ran West Streatham Sidecar Club in 1950s (I was born raised in south London, Balham, Streatham, Brixton). Friend of his, neighbour of mine, ran a 5/6 hp Clyno with homemade canvas covered side car - got to ride in it! - in late 1950s. Have his long slider (puggaree) MMG cap badge. Wished had written down  his name as served in India. 

No surprise at the ASC cap badge - just pointing it out. Generally you can see ASC men in battery photos, but not section photos. Actually some batteries the ASC men were badged MMG, but used ASC shoulder titles and Motor Machine Guns shoulder patches. They were an integral and vital part of  an MMG battery about 20% of the compliment, in a L.A.M.B battery up to 60%. In the MMG batteries as well as drivers they were the mechanics/fitters and were earning 5x what a gunner earned. Artificer Sgt would be the highest paid other rank in the unit. Many of them were recruited through The Motorcycle newspaper for specific skill sets. They had to got to Grove Park, but then sent right back to Bisley to be allocated a battery. I'd be interested to see if there are any further photos showing MMGS cap badges in use. It was discontinued by the MGC at the start of 1916 to the disgust of the MMGS men. Especially when some were told to break the MMG letters off their existing badges. In some units  - for example 22nd MMG in India you never see them, but have seen in Mesopotamia and Syria (late 1918). Technically out of regs, but presumably condoned by certain COs. and would mark you as an old hand or a "1915 man".

Carnochan is on the Absent voters list for 1918. Address 10 Lowndes Avenue ,Bromley, Kent. Unit 19th Battery MGC (motors). 

He's also still on the Army List November 1919 MGC(Motors) as Lieutenant (Temporary Captain). Keeping the temporary rank implies he was still in a command position. He certainly never stayed on the Western Front  as he would show up in the 1st MMG Brigade war diary as all battery commanders and officers are listed. He also does not show up in the L.A.M.B Brigade war diary either. So it narrows down a lot where else he could have been for two years. By early 1919 only motorcycle units left were in India or  if moved to armoured cars either Middle East  or India. There is only a page and a half of Motors officers and most are now familiar names. He possibly moved sideways and took over command of an A.M.B as there were a number of them who were not involved in 3rd Afghan so do not show up with GSMs. His address on his MIC is in India and he's seen returning to UK from India as a civilian banker in June 1925 and returning there January 1926. Have not seen any record of him going to India as a civilian prior to this. 

His brother Douglas Stuart Carnochan was a staff captain with Royal Artillery during  3rd Afghan.  

 

Edited 11 January , 2022 by david murdoch

[djbrown]

15 hours ago, mcassell said:

Another pic of 19 MMG at Quetta - hope better pic of yr Grandfather, Mr McMurran. Will try and scan whole album in near future. Re officer list for 19 MMG, do not think either Major Gray or Captain Carnochan went to India. I looked at embarkation rolls in TNA/PRO some years back and neither is mentioned as leaving with 19 MMG (though Lieutenant Squire is). Guess their service records will tell.

 Thank you. Not seeing him in that one though. I'll let my mother have a look but fairly sure he's not in that one. The longer I look at these photos I keep seeing faces I recognise or people who look similar to others around today...if I didn't know differently I would swear that I played hockey at university with the chap second from the left in the front row; the likeness is uncanny.  (What a great advert for how a pith helmet keeps the sun off of the forehead!)

[djbrown]

13 hours ago, david murdoch said:

Yes I have  Gunner  807 Robert Robertson Hay on my spreadsheet. Identified as 19th MMG from the GSM medal roll. His surname is Hay born Gorbals 1895 died Partick 1958. By his number joined MMGS April 1916 possibly as a transfer from another regiment. I don't have a Robert Robertson with a close service number to your grandfather( 100 up or down). Right at that time the service numbers climbed very steeply due to targeted recruitment  - my grandfather enlisted the same week in Glasgow but was 2133 - basically dozens enlisting and straight down to Bisley. There are quite a lot of gaps on the MGC(Motors) roll  - often men transferred to Heavy Branch then Tanks. A possible for him is  Private  200057 Robert Robertson Tank Corps  who was previously  Gunner 1736 MMGS and ex 24th MMG Battery. He has a Silver War Badge record which gives his enlistment date as 15th July 1915. He was discharged from Tank Corps  wounded 26/4/1919. However he shows on a casualty list December 1917 as being from Greenock.  24th MMG went to France same day as 19th, but were disbanded in November 1916 and rolled into MGC Heavy Branch. The one you are looking for was likely born 1892 in Carnwath. You can see by this that in a couple of weeks MMGS took on 400 odd.

Thank you. My mother's recollection is that they "joined up together" but she wasn't born until 22 years later so its entirely possible that it wasn't exactly the same day. I suppose that if they had to travel to a major town like Lanark to sign up there could potentially have been hundreds of young men queuing up at the same time, pals split up sent to different desks etc etc. 1892 would be about right, grandfather was 1889.

[pjwmacro]

2 hours ago, djbrown said:

The longer I look at these photos I keep seeing faces I recognise or people who look similar to others around today.

It can be a very frustrating game at times!

[pjwmacro]

On 10/01/2022 at 11:03, djbrown said:

1996 Gunner James McMorran  from Carnwath, Lanarkshire.

Given your g/f shows on the medal roll for the IGSM for the Third Afghan War (NWF 1919) with 19 Bty MMGS, it would seem likely that he took part in the only specifically recorded occasion on which 19th Motor Machine Gun Battery was in action during that conflict. Two sections,(I don't know which!) were involved, north of Hindubagh and at Karezgi Fort, approx. 50 miles / 80 km NE of Quetta, in late July (26th-30th) 1919.

Regards, Paul

[pjwmacro]

15 hours ago, mcassell said:

One of us should get his service record from TNA.

That should help - and I have a long list which i would like to see! But sadly I am in the Netherlands for just over another year before retirement, so I cannot see myself doing a research visit anytime soon. If I hear of any friends going then I`ll make a request!  Regards, Paul

[pjwmacro]

@abowell97 @david murdoch @mcassell

Sjt Burke?? First Picture is from the 22 Bty thread.  I am pretty certain it's him in the middle of mcassell's pictures (does the sidecap indicate ASC rather than MMGS??). Less certain about last picture.

Regards, Paul

[pjwmacro]

On 07/01/2022 at 23:05, mcassell said:

Attached are photos of (left) Lieutenant G.T. Turner and Lieutenant A.M. Ketley.

Apologies - I hadn't thanked you for sharing these. Thank you.  The picture of Turner is particularly impressive. Regards, Paul