19th Motor Machine Gun Battery in India 1918 and 1919

[david murdoch]

I'm looking up more on Hargreaves. His NoK on his service papers and his address was his sister Edith Mayall (Hargreaves).  

Edith Hargreaves
BIRTH OCTOBER 1871 • Oldham, Lancashire, England DEATH JAN 1943 • Oldham, Lancashire, England

There are several family trees for her  and these show Thomas as a sibling.

1939 Register gives his date of birth as 18th January 1885 and occupation as aircraft fitter.

He married Ada Beaumont  on 9/9/1924 in Manchester

[mcassell]

Just found another 19 MMG soldier: 38629 Gunner A J Escott. Posted to 19 MMG 17 May 1918 but soon sent to Military Accounts Department at Poona. Ran a laundry in civilian life. Have his medals, an engraved id tag made from a silver shilling and Zeppelin-shaped piece of aluminium stamped 'L33'. Service record has survived.

[djbrown]

On 14/01/2022 at 19:52, david murdoch said:

My grandfather did not own a motorbike at that time (as he could not afford one). He was actually a buyer for Glasgow fruit market, but obviously had an interest and probably had ridden a friend's bike - he had to pass a practical to be accepted. The same with those enlisting through The Motorcycle - they were interviewed by the editor and with a few questions he would easily spot anyone bluffing it. The general newspaper adverts also certainly pushed the "elite" aspect of the formation. Not everybody would have to be a top end motorcyclist, but overall the recruitment was very selective and they were able to pick and choose as they had many more applicants than they had places for. They recruited a lot of men from the motorcycle industry and from the racing and trials riding scene. Really primarily you would be selected due to motorcycle aptitude then once at the training centre they would select men with an aptitude for the machine guns to be No.1 or No.2 gunners. From my research it's clear they took in quite a high proportion of people with technical backgrounds and also there is a high rate of commissions from the ranks, but really it was down to individual suitability. 

 

Thanks again David, this is fascinating stuff to learn now and brings up lots of questions that I'll sadly never get an answer to; but it's great to know despite that. Here is a photograph with my GF in the centre. Thats all I have for now but maybe it may be of value for someone looking for other individuals... Judging by the trees in the background I'd say it was taken in the UK?

[david murdoch]

1 hour ago, djbrown said:

Thanks again David, this is fascinating stuff to learn now and brings up lots of questions that I'll sadly never get an answer to; but it's great to know despite that. Here is a photograph with my GF in the centre. Thats all I have for now but maybe it may be of value for someone looking for other individuals... Judging by the trees in the background I'd say it was taken in the UK?

This is a very interesting photo - would you be able to post the whole picture? Given what you mentioned before about East Africa I think this is 1st A.M.B before they left the UK. There is a unit photo published in The Motorcycle February 1916 taken in UK just before they left for Africa. They were wearing tropical kit and you can make out the MGC badges on the front of tropical helmets. However in this you can see both MGC and Army Service Corps cap badges, but more significantly they are wearing large collar dogs  - I believe we are looking at 1st A.M.B badges - I've seen previously worn as cap badges. A re look at the old photo also can make out some collar badges. I think the chap with the regular cap is wearing one. The chap back left in the photo may be James Garth ASC.

Edited 20 February , 2022 by david murdoch

[djbrown]

Hi David, unfortunately that is the only part of the photo I have. You would reasonably assume that we must have had the original at some point to be able to select that part with my grandfather but my mother can't remember where the photo came from. The photo from "The Motorcycle" somehow looks familiar, I'm wondering if it was a copy of that which we had?

In terms of time-line; I am 100% certain that the paperwork I had mentioned Quetta (because I remember looking it up on an atlas {pre-google maps!!}) and the E Africa reference was with regard to him being down with Malaria. Therefore I always assumed that he had been at Quetta before E Africa? Was it the other way round and could he have recovered from Malaria and then gone on to the NWF? I remember having the impression that the Malaria was a medical discharge.

[pjwmacro]

43 minutes ago, djbrown said:

In terms of time-line; I am 100% certain that the paperwork I had mentioned Quetta (because I remember looking it up on an atlas {pre-google maps!!}) and the E Africa reference was with regard to him being down with Malaria. Therefore I always assumed that he had been at Quetta before E Africa? Was it the other way round and could he have recovered from Malaria and then gone on to the NWF? I remember having the impression that the Malaria was a medical discharge.

Great photo - thank you for sharing. In terms of timeline it would be East Africa first and then the North West Frontier - possibly via Mesopotamia/the Middle East.  But Armoured Car units were in West Africa 1916/17 before being pulled out and concentrated in the Middle East - the only formal MMGS unit in India until early 1918 was 22 Battery - 3, 14, 15 and 19 MMG batteries then went from France to India, departing France late 1917, arriving India late 17/early 18.

I think Malaria can also be caught in India - although it is more common in East Africa.

Regards, Paul

[david murdoch]

18 hours ago, djbrown said:

Hi David, unfortunately that is the only part of the photo I have. You would reasonably assume that we must have had the original at some point to be able to select that part with my grandfather but my mother can't remember where the photo came from. The photo from "The Motorcycle" somehow looks familiar, I'm wondering if it was a copy of that which we had?

In terms of time-line; I am 100% certain that the paperwork I had mentioned Quetta (because I remember looking it up on an atlas {pre-google maps!!}) and the E Africa reference was with regard to him being down with Malaria. Therefore I always assumed that he had been at Quetta before E Africa? Was it the other way round and could he have recovered from Malaria and then gone on to the NWF? I remember having the impression that the Malaria was a medical discharge.

There is a  separate thread for 1st AMB. 

There are some other ranks identified and also some have surviving records (mainly because they all had medical issues and pension claims!) If he was an original member he'd have  gone to Africa 7th February 1916 (arriving 16th March). The Battery pulled out of Africa in July 1917 to the Middle East. The unit was badly depleted by casualties and medical cases. Of those left some ended up with the Hejaz  armoured cars and other's I've seen to armoured car units in Palestine. There were several fatalities due to malaria and other's so severe they were returned to UK and discharged.  Quite how he found his way to 19th MMG is still unknown. 

[pjwmacro]

16 hours ago, david murdoch said:

If he was an original member he'd have  gone to Africa 7th February 1916 (arriving 16th March). The Battery pulled out of Africa in July 1917 to the Middle East. The unit was badly depleted by casualties and medical cases. Of those left some ended up with the Hejaz  armoured cars and other's I've seen to armoured car units in Palestine. There were several fatalities due to malaria and other's so severe they were returned to UK and discharged.  Quite how he found his way to 19th MMG is still unknown. 

Thanks David

[mcassell]

I think I have convincing evidence that Lieutenant W B Erlebach was OC 19 MMG during the Afghan War. I have the card index of the MGCOA (Motor section only, unfortunately) which lists Erlebach as:

Commd. from Cadet 5 August 1916 (LG 1 September 1916);

Lieutenant 5 February 1918 (LG 16 May 1918);

Acting Major from 6 May 1919 to 31 October 1919 commanding a Battery (LG 23 May 1921);

Relinquished commission 24 May 1921 (LG 23 May 1921).

This seems pretty convincing that Erlebach, not Captain Carnochan, was OC 19 MMG, at least during period of 3rd Afghan War.

[ghchurcher]

Super thread on 19MMG. Lovely photos. Thankyou for taking the trouble to share them.

I see Paul lists 815 Sgt Thomas Morris as he is on the Afghan Roll, is he identified to a Section ? Presumably one of the 2 that left Quetta so qualified for the medal. Is he named in any of the photos, as a Sergeant in 1918 on his WW1 pair he should at least be spottable with the stripes in the India photos ? 

I'm not so sure however I agree with the assertion that the IGS had to be applied for though by ORs. Yes this was the case for Officers in WW1, and I guess the 1919/20s GSM/IGS issues may indeed have followed that protocol but the OR rolls do appear to have been generated by the unit present at the engagement, albeit there is crossover with other units where the soldier had moved on, and there are subsequent omissions to one roll or the other , during the drafting stages usually, but also in as a correction on the "final" typed up ones. The medals and claps are often noted as being sent to the last known address, which would be at odds with application only issues, and others held pending disposal in the event of not locating the soldier to send to. Thus I think the ORs rolls are pretty full and accurate and include those where the medals were not ultimately issued or claimed. I take the point the MGC had gone so admin was done by the TC so there is that added complication, but the TC ACC rolls for example are definitely raised rather than added to by application. I'm sure there will have been efforts made to locate soldiers and running adverts for the issue of medals to encourage lost soldiers to come forward to claim their medal makes perfect sense. I cant find anything mentioned specifically on the IGS issue protocols, nor in Stiles Taming the Tiger or the like.    

Edited 7 March , 2022 by ghchurcher

[pjwmacro]

12 hours ago, mcassell said:

Acting Major from 6 May 1919 to 31 October 1919 commanding a Battery (LG 23 May 1921);

Relinquished commission 24 May 1921 (LG 23 May 1921).

This seems pretty convincing that Erlebach, not Captain Carnochan, was OC 19 MMG, at least during period of 3rd Afghan War

I am tempted to agree - particularly with regards Acting Major. Not clear what the MGCOA you refer to is though? Note his MIC includes the line " OC 19 MMG Battery Quetta forwards list if officers" which is not clear whether Eberlach is the OC concerned.

Regards, Paul 

[pjwmacro]

5 hours ago, ghchurcher said:

815 Sgt Thomas Morris as he is on the Afghan Roll, is he identified to a Section

Not so far as I am aware - but they aren't my photos. So I need to go back through those posted.

Regards Paul 

[mcassell]

15 hours ago, pjwmacro said:

I am tempted to agree - particularly with regards Acting Major. Not clear what the MGCOA you refer to is though? Note his MIC includes the line " OC 19 MMG Battery Quetta forwards list if officers" which is not clear whether Eberlach is the OC concerned.

Regards, Paul 

The MGCOA is the Machine Gun Corps Officers Association. I was given access to the index by the then owner (the Association had been dissolved in the 60s) but only had time to copy the Motors related cards (about 100 names). The cards basically include London Gazette entries for dates of commission and relinquishing commission and rank on retirement. Assume they were vetting applicants.

[mcassell]

Recently located LT FG Squire photo album 19 MMG India and have attached a few (cell phone) pictures that maybe of interest. Would be nice if someone recognizes one or more of the Battery NCOs from very nice picture of them.

[david murdoch]

Chap back left appears to be "Sgt. Burke" seen in the 22nd MMG photo. There is something unclear above his stripes - certainly not an "MG" patch but may be Artificer badge, making him ASC and the Battery Artificer Sgt. 

WO in the middle is WOII/BSM 514 Bryan Adair MiD,MSM (can see his MSM ribbon) but again no IGSM.  He was ex 9th Royal Irish Rifles, attended the 56th Vickers Course at Hythe  October/November 1914. He had been BSM of 7th MMG and swapped to 19th MMG  prior to them going to India. His MSM appears noted in Belfast newspaper November 1916 at which time he was 16th MMG and he had been mentioned in dispatches prior to that. 

Adair was actually Patrick Bryan Adair
Born 12th  January 1890 Belfast, Antrim, Northern Ireland Died 9th January 1941 Arthur Square, Belfast, Antrim, Northern Ireland. He joined the fire service in 1911 and became a senior officer. He was treasurer of Lodge 420 Pioneer and actually collapsed and died at a lodge meeting.  

Edited 25 March , 2022 by david murdoch

[mcassell]

11 hours ago, david murdoch said:

Chap back left appears to be "Sgt. Burke" seen in the 22nd MMG photo. There is something unclear above his stripes - certainly not an "MG" patch but may be Artificer badge, making him ASC and the Battery Artificer Sgt. 

WO in the middle is WOII/BSM 514 Bryan Adair MiD,MSM (can see his MSM ribbon) but again no IGSM.  He was ex 9th Royal Irish Rifles, attended the 56th Vickers Course at Hythe  October/November 1914. He had been BSM of 7th MMG and swapped to 19th MMG  prior to them going to India. His MSM appears noted in Belfast newspaper November 1916 at which time he was 16th MMG and he had been mentioned in dispatches prior to that. 

Adair was actually Patrick Bryan Adair
Born 12th  January 1890 Belfast, Antrim, Northern Ireland Died 9th January 1941 Arthur Square, Belfast, Antrim, Northern Ireland. He joined the fire service in 1911 and became a senior officer. He was treasurer of Lodge 420 Pioneer and actually collapsed and died at a lodge meeting.  

My thought on first seeing NCO picture above was the gentleman in the centre had to be BSM Adair - what seems like MSM ribbon (awarded 2 years before picture was taken) seemed to clinch it. However, the gentleman is wearing accoutrements of an RSM (WO1) Sam Browne belt, sword, no stripes! The only WO1 in MMGS/MGC (M) I am aware of is 163506 Victor Charles Maidment (an ex Hampshire Territorial) who spent his whole WW1 career in India! As the picture of BSM Ward on the 22 MMG Battery post shows (and similarly on pictures I am aware of of BSM J.R Moores, BSM F.E. Love and BSM Trotman - all who served in India) the arm insignia for WO2 rank is 3 chevrons with a device above. Wondering whether BSM Adair is the chap sitting on left of the apparent WO1?

[david murdoch]

3 hours ago, mcassell said:

My thought on first seeing NCO picture above was the gentleman in the centre had to be BSM Adair - what seems like MSM ribbon (awarded 2 years before picture was taken) seemed to clinch it. However, the gentleman is wearing accoutrements of an RSM (WO1) Sam Browne belt, sword, no stripes! The only WO1 in MMGS/MGC (M) I am aware of is 163506 Victor Charles Maidment (an ex Hampshire Territorial) who spent his whole WW1 career in India! As the picture of BSM Ward on the 22 MMG Battery post shows (and similarly on pictures I am aware of of BSM J.R Moores, BSM F.E. Love and BSM Trotman - all who served in India) the arm insignia for WO2 rank is 3 chevrons with a device above. Wondering whether BSM Adair is the chap sitting on left of the apparent WO1?

This is Adair in Fire Service uniform from 1930's  - he rose to be one of the senior officers in the Belfast fire service. Noting he has a row of medals  - he would have trio  plus MSM and likely a couple of civilian awards. In the 1918 photo, the other chap to the left certainly wearing WO rank but has no medal ribbons, could be quartermaster Sgt.

Edited 26 March , 2022 by david murdoch

[mcassell]

Another photo of same group of NCOs of 19 MMG. Chap on far left appears to be WO2 too. Seems right age for Adair, unlike the 'WO1' in centre. Will try to get some hi-res scans this week and improve contrast and resolution.

[pjwmacro]

On 19/01/2022 at 15:12, mcassell said:

Duki Column in Marri expedition

I have tracked this down - less a specific reference to 19th MMG.  Several sources including:

The Soldier's Burden (kaiserscross.com), The British Raj: Fighting The Marris And The Khetrans | Balochi Linguist (wordpress.com) both include the specific lines:

At Duki it was decided to forget about the motor cycles as there were no roads ahead of the column, so the machine gun sections were converted to pack-animal transport and the ammunition belts were carried in packing cases by mules and camels.  The former motor cyclist riders had worn the soles off their boots cornering on their bikes, and being in no condition to march a long distance they persevered as far as Kohlu where they stayed as a garrison. 

The reports refer to:  A Machine Gun Company, motor cycle mounted - which presumably (from your photograph album evidence) is 19 MMGB - although given the column left Duki on 18 March 1918 and 19MMG had only arrived in Bombay in late Dec 17/ early Jan 1918 the timings are pretty tight.

I am also finding the geography a little confusing - the column assembled at Duki and then marched on 18th March to Gumbaz. Wikipedia then says: "Hardy's column [The Duki Column] advanced through Marri-held territory burning their villages and crops and driving off livestock. He reached Kohlu on 23 March, having met no resistance. On 3 April Hardy's column reached Hadb where they met a force of 1,200 Marri, which were attacked and forced to retreat after losing 70–80 men killed and 100 wounded. The next day Hardy moved on Maiwand, by which time he considered that the main threat was over and the Marri limited to only minor raids against his men." So if they were left to garrison Kohlu 19 MMG had already marched past Fort Gumbaz. Kohlu lies about 100km ESE of Duki, with Gumbaz being pretty much between the two.

Regards, Paul

[pjwmacro]

@ghchurcher I have 815 Sgt Thomas Morris and 1187  Sgt Richard STORIE - but so far no confirmed identification in a photo or attribution to a section.

Regards, Paul

[pjwmacro]

On 25/03/2022 at 22:06, david murdoch said:

Chap back left appears to be "Sgt. Burke" seen in the 22nd MMG photo. There is something unclear above his stripes - certainly not an "MG" patch but may be Artificer badge, making him ASC and the Battery Artificer Sgt

David, I`d agree that is Sgt Burke - but we previously had gone back to thinking he was MGC! That said, gut feeling, no more, ASC would make more sense - simply because I think we would have "found" him if he was MMGS/MGC. So I think he still remains an enigma!

Regards, Paul

[pjwmacro]

On 25/03/2022 at 20:10, mcassell said:

Recently located LT FG Squire photo album 19 MMG India and have attached a few (cell phone) pictures that maybe of interest.

More great photos - thanks again for sharing - so definitely in 1918, No 1 section Franks, No 2 Section Squires and No 3 section Erlebach (who appears to have gone on to command in 1919). What a shame Squires didn't stay with 19MMG for the Third Afghan War!

 

Regards, Paul

[david murdoch]

2 hours ago, pjwmacro said:

David, I`d agree that is Sgt Burke - but we previously had gone back to thinking he was MGC! That said, gut feeling, no more, ASC would make more sense - simply because I think we would have "found" him if he was MMGS/MGC. So I think he still remains an enigma!

Regards, Paul

I have a possible for him Pte  David George Burke M2/120551 Army Service Corps. He's on the medal roll as Private, but he was in India and received IGSM with Afghanistan clasp. On that roll Pte is crossed out as is A/Mechanical Sgt Major  and final rank is A/WOII - He discharged 21/1/1920, which fits with MMG batteries winding up in India. Unfortunately does not not his actual unit.  I was put off previously as looking for a Sergeant in the medal cards. The other ranks are penned on his MIC.  

He was born 10/2/1883 Kirkdale, Lancashire  and died 1/7/1960 in Liverpool. On 1911 census his occupation was Motor Cycle Agent, Motorcycle repaired and Chauffeur.  On 1939 register Garage Proprietor and engine fitter. 

There is a very good family tree for him on ancestry, but no photo to cross reference. He had several children and has living grand children. The tree is managed by a grandson - I'll get in touch with him and see if he has any back ground information. 

[mcassell]

Thank you for tracking down the quote though neither article gives the original source of it.

Re 'geography':  The Squire album has 18 photographs under heading Marri expedition. 9 relate to Gumbaz Fort, incuding 1 titled 'garrison of Gumbaz': No.2 Section 19 MMG, 1 section South Lancs. The remaining 9 show Marri prisoners, captured camels, a picture of Colonel Gaussen, 3rd Skinner's Horse, etc. No places mentioned but presumably action at Kohlu. From this, I presume No 2 Section was dropped of at Gumbaz while remaining sections proceeded to Kohlu.

Finally, a comment about Captain Erlebach. I checked the London Gazette entry for his promotion to Acting Major and it doesnt actually mention him commanding a Battery. Looking at my hand-written transcription of original card, it could be Brigade. Possibly from information additional to Gazette available at the time, and consistent with appointment as acting Major. It is not often realized that Class A  Armoured Motor Batteries in India were formed into 4 (possibly 5) brigades, each with an attached MMG Battery. Thus:

1st (HQ) Armoured Motor Brigade - Nos. 1 thru 3 AMBs; 15 MMG; OC Major A. Clifton, Brigade Sergeant Major JR Moores.

10th Armoured Motor Brigade - Nos. 4 thru 7 AMBs, later also No.16AMB; 3 and 22 MMG; OC various, Brigade Sergeant Major FE Love.

6th Armoured Motor Brigade - Nos. 8 and 11 AMBs; 19 MMG; OC ? Major Erlebach??)

? (possibly 4th) Armoured Motor Brigade - Nos. 9, 10, 12 thru 15 AMBs (all operating in big Indian cities); 14MMG. OC???

[mcassell]

On reflection, I think 4th AM Brigade was No. 4 AMB and 3 MMG out of Kohat. Found a reference to a Captain Elmslie, IARO OC 4th AM Brigade and assumed it was mistake for No. 4 AM Battery.