19th Motor Machine Gun Battery in India 1918 and 1919

[mcassell]

While browsing through old notebooks for info on 14 MMG (very little), found this note re 19 MMG. Unfortunately was lax about origin. This is verbatim my note:

'It appears that men of 19MMG, as part of Duki Column in Marri expedition, had to give up m/cs as no roads; converted to pack transport. Poor shoes meant 19 MMG got only as far as Kohlu where acted as garrison.'

This may be well known to you all, would appreciate reference if known.

Also have note that only 'decoration' awarded to 19 MMG was Meritorious Service Medal to 1233 Gunner W.S. Collins for 'valuable services rendered in India' (dated 3 June 1919, gazetted 3 September 1920). Collins is not on IGSM roll. Hope of interest.

[david murdoch]

On 19/01/2022 at 11:12, mcassell said:

While browsing through old notebooks for info on 14 MMG (very little), found this note re 19 MMG. Unfortunately was lax about origin. This is verbatim my note:

'It appears that men of 19MMG, as part of Duki Column in Marri expedition, had to give up m/cs as no roads; converted to pack transport. Poor shoes meant 19 MMG got only as far as Kohlu where acted as garrison.'

This may be well known to you all, would appreciate reference if known.

Also have note that only 'decoration' awarded to 19 MMG was Meritorious Service Medal to 1233 Gunner W.S. Collins for 'valuable services rendered in India' (dated 3 June 1919, gazetted 3 September 1920). Collins is not on IGSM roll. Hope of interest.

I have Gunner William Stewart Collins on my spreadsheet as being 19th MMG. He was born in Edinburgh in 1891, by his number I have him enlisting  on/around 18th May 1915 (have service record for 1232). He enlisted Edinburgh/Leith due to targeted MMGS recruiting team in Scotland at that time. Other close numbers were in 18th and 19th MMGs. Looks like he was with 19th Battery all the way through. There is not much on him - just MIC, roll and the card for the MSM which notes him being 19th MMG. He was demobilised 19th December 1919. 

Edited 21 January , 2022 by david murdoch

[mcassell]

Yes, have 1232 Gunner Bruce on my database as 18 MMG then Tank Corps.

[pjwmacro]

On 19/01/2022 at 15:12, mcassell said:

'It appears that men of 19MMG, as part of Duki Column in Marri expedition, had to give up m/cs as no roads; converted to pack transport. Poor shoes meant 19 MMG got only as far as Kohlu where acted as garrison

Not seen anything to confirm this in the official history, Molesworth or Robson. Interesting though - and certainly fits - the motorcycles must have been ragged and very short of spares. Regards 

Edited 21 January , 2022 by pjwmacro

[pjwmacro]

On 18/01/2022 at 15:21, mcassell said:

First, the AC and AG India criteria for an award specify that to be eligible for the IGSM by virtue of service in Baluchistan one had have been involved in supporting troops of the East Persia Cordon. 19 MMG spent 1918 and first half of 1919 patrolling the vital Quetta-Hindubagh-Peshin road in support of the Cordon. However, only 2 sections were involved, according to OH, as previously noted. It seems a distinct possibilty that these sections were commanded by Lieutenants Ketley and Turner, who qualified for the medal. Other officers (including the likely CO, Captain Carnochan, may have remained in Quetta

Agreed - but it doesn't explain the anomaly that we know two sections (at least) would have qualified for the IGSM Clasp (36+ men) but the IGSM medal roll only accounts for about 1 section - 18 men.

Regards  Paul 

[mcassell]

While WW1 medals were issued directly to NCOs and men (officers had to apply), General Service Medals (including IGSM 1908, GSM 1918) had to be applied for by all ranks. As far as the MGC is concerned, awards of GSM bars 'Kurdistan', 'Iraq', 'N.W. Persia' reflect only about 25% of personnel actually involved. Same with IGSM 08, particularly bar 'Waziristan 1919-21'. The medal rolls are useful as far as who actually WAS there but doesn't reflect any units full complement. A former neighbour of mine in Bristol who was MGC MID Kurdistan - have his certificate - had no idea he was entitled to a campaign medal!

[MaureenE]

13 hours ago, mcassell said:

While WW1 medals were issued directly to NCOs and men (officers had to apply), General Service Medals (including IGSM 1908, GSM 1918) had to be applied for by all ranks. As far as the MGC is concerned, awards of GSM bars 'Kurdistan', 'Iraq', 'N.W. Persia' reflect only about 25% of personnel actually involved. Same with IGSM 08, particularly bar 'Waziristan 1919-21'. The medal rolls are useful as far as who actually WAS there but doesn't reflect any units full complement. 

Just so I am clear in my own mind, are you saying the the medal rolls mentioned only contain names of men who have previously applied for medals?

Maureen

[mcassell]

Yes, unless you saw newspaper announcement, heard from comrade, etc, and applied for GSM or IGSM, you would not be automatically issued with medal. Medal rolls are good for those who applied and were confirmed as entitled but not as source of those engaged. Lieutenant Ketley waited until 1939 to apply for his IGSM while my former neighbour had no idea he could have claimed GSM  'Kurdistan'. This could have been problem specifically with MGC, being disbanded in 1922, but think it result of WD policy about issuing non-WW1 medals. No claim, no issue.

[mcassell]

Have GSM bars Kurdistan and Iraq to a Captain Dyason, 207 Coy MGC (with rare packet of photos of Kurdistan campaign). His TNA Officer File contains a letter (1922) lamenting not having got his WW1 medals and having to APPLY for his GSM. He got his GSM obviously but WW1 medals, who knows. Bit off topic for thread but emphasizes fact that relying on IGSM (or any) medal rolls to collate personnel who served in particular campaign is a bit iffy.

 

[Kimberley John Lindsay]

Dear mcassell,

On the contrary: that is an important observation, hitherto unclear to me!

I have the medal group of an erstwhile 25 MMG Bty Cpl (Corbett), whose unit was disbanded in 1917. After a course at Zeitoun OCTU, Corbett was commd into the IARO and served with 2-69 Punjabis.

Kindest regards,

Kim.

[mcassell]

Nice group! At risk of being accused of hi-jacking thread, identity of IARO and IA officers attached to 'off the book' Armoured Motor Batteries is a worthwhile research pursuit. Have Armoured Motors training manual owned by Captain HL Taunton late 9 AMB (at Amritsar 1919), and photo album of Gnr Ivins MGC, late 1/25 Londons covering 1917 Waziristan campaign whose family said watched Amritsar massacre! Point for this thread - and wont contribute further - is medal rolls only provide names of those that got a medal, not all of those who were there.

[mcassell]

PS. Should have mentioned that, according to family, Gunner Ivins didn't get his medals!

[MaureenE]

On 23/01/2022 at 11:10, mcassell said:

Yes, unless you saw newspaper announcement, heard from comrade, etc, and applied for GSM or IGSM, you would not be automatically issued with medal. Medal rolls are good for those who applied and were confirmed as entitled but not as source of those engaged. 

Thanks for confirming mcassell.

Maureen

[mcassell]

I had forgotten I had a second album of photographs of 19 MMG in India made by J H Langford (see 2nd pic of front page). Not as good as Lieutrnant Squire's album but from an OR's perspective. Apologies for cell phone copies, dont have access to scanner at moment.

[david murdoch]

4 hours ago, mcassell said:

I had forgotten I had a second album of photographs of 19 MMG in India made by J H Langford (see 2nd pic of front page). Not as good as Lieutrnant Squire's album but from an OR's perspective. Apologies for cell phone copies, dont have access to scanner at moment.

 

 

 Gunner 79427 John (Jack) Hannam Langford Posted to 19th MMG on 7/12/1918. He appears to have been invalided back to UK leaving 19th MMG in June 1919 and admitted to Royal Victoria Hospital, Netly, Hants on 5/8/1919. He was demobbed 7/1/1920.

In his record his conduct sheet was signed off by  Lt. Erlebach 

BIRTH 14 OCT 1898 • Portsea Island, Hampshire, England

DEATH 27 NOV 1958 • Droxford, Hampshire, England

 

 

Edited 2 February , 2022 by david murdoch

[pjwmacro]

15 hours ago, mcassell said:

I had forgotten I had a second album of photographs of 19 MMG in India made by J H Langford (see 2nd pic of front page). Not as good as Lieutrnant Squire's album but from an OR's perspective.

Thank you for sharing. Would be great to see scans and the full album in due course. I make the 3 names on the bottom right photo (1st page you have posted) - with Spot the dog! - Hargreaves, Smith and Mellor. Is that correct?  (Just about to check the nominal roles at the start of the thread! Edit - just checked, not there, but will add Langford)

Regards, Paul

Edited 2 February , 2022 by pjwmacro

[pjwmacro]

11 hours ago, david murdoch said:

In his record his conduct sheet was signed off by  Lt. Erlebach

Which would appear to confirm Erlebach was still with the battery in June 1919. Either as Langford's section officer, or (and I suspect more likely) acting as the Battery 2ic - given 2 other officers who don't know the battery had been brought in as section commanders. It will be interesting to see if Erlebach's service record confirms this.

Regards, Paul

[mcassell]

Yes, Hargreaves, Smith and Mellor (and Spot).  I have Mellor as probably 1990 Gunner Norman Mellor, dis. 3 February 1920. Nothing definite stating 19 MMG , and didnt get IGSM. Am still wondering if one had to leave Quetta (or thought one had to) to qualify for IGSM: would explain why Erlebach didnt get IGSM tho was at Quetta during Afghan War. As a point, I have a list of 10 men of South Lancashire Regiment (from Regimental Mag) who transferred to MGC Motors at Quetta in September 1918 (presumably to 8 AMU). Only one these men (Pte/Gunner Frederick Titchmarsh) got IGSM - and then only in 1926 - though virtually whole of 1st South Lancs, which did leave Quetta, got the IGSM.

[pjwmacro]

16 hours ago, mcassell said:

have Mellor as probably 1990 Gunner Norman Mellor, dis. 3 February 1920. Nothing definite stating 19 MMG , and didnt get IGSM.

Thank you - I will have a look at him. 

Have just realised that I hadn't responded to your posts about the medal rolls. I too had not realised that "unless you saw newspaper announcement, heard from comrade, etc, and applied for GSM or IGSM, you would not be automatically issued with the medal."  Thank you for clarifying - although for all that, the medal rolls still are an excellent starting point for trying to produce a battery nominal roll.

Regards, Paul

[mcassell]

One caveat though, I suspect this issue may be peculiar to the MGC and other regiments (e.g. Irish ) and Corps disbanded in 1922 before most post-war campaign clasps were authorized, particularly if a soldier had gone back to civilian life and not continued in the Army.

[david murdoch]

2 hours ago, mcassell said:

One caveat though, I suspect this issue may be peculiar to the MGC and other regiments (e.g. Irish ) and Corps disbanded in 1922 before most post-war campaign clasps were authorized, particularly if a soldier had gone back to civilian life and not continued in the Army.

It's an interesting point. I'm pretty sure my grandfather would have been entitled to a GSM with Kurdistan Clasp. Having found a couple for his unit, I'm certain he would never have applied for it  and my mother said his war medals were still in the packet and never worn.  You can see on the GSM rolls when they were processed and as you say - after the MGC had ceased to exist. It appears they were administered by Tank Corps. 

[pjwmacro]

9 hours ago, mcassell said:

One caveat though, I suspect this issue may be peculiar to the MGC and other regiments (e.g. Irish ) and Corps disbanded in 1922 before most post-war campaign clasps were authorized, particularly if a soldier had gone back to civilian life and not continued in the Army.

I suspect you are right, but as david points out, the Tank Corps will have picked up those who did not discharge and who passed from MGC to Tank Corps,

Regards Paul 

[david murdoch]

1 hour ago, pjwmacro said:

I suspect you are right, but as david points out, the Tank Corps will have picked up those who did not discharge and who passed from MGC to Tank Corps,

Regards Paul 

Looking wider on the (IGSM) roll it looks like they were taking care of all MGC branches as they are all mixed together Infantry, Motors and Cavalry all represented on the roll for Afghanistan NWF, and not just men who stayed on and  transferred to Tank Corps. 

Edited 3 February , 2022 by david murdoch

[mcassell]

There are a considerable number of MGC men on the IGSM rolls who claimed their medals with units other than the Tank Corps so I suspect only those men who actually continued with the Tank Corps or who were on muster rolls in the possession of the Tank Corps got their medals through that unit. As far as 19 MMG is concerned, in my opinion, the issue is Quetta. One criterion for eligibility for the Afghanistan NWF clasp states one had to be under command of GOC Baluchistan Force (Generals Wapshare and Woodyatt). I am convinced that remaining part of the Quetta Garrison meant you were not part of Baluchistan Force and therefore ineligible for the IGSM. It would be nice to find someone, not just 19 MMG, who was adjudged ineligible for the IGSM because he spent the Afghan War enjoying the dubious comforts of Quetta.

[david murdoch]

On 02/02/2022 at 08:31, pjwmacro said:

Thank you for sharing. Would be great to see scans and the full album in due course. I make the 3 names on the bottom right photo (1st page you have posted) - with Spot the dog! - Hargreaves, Smith and Mellor. Is that correct?  (Just about to check the nominal roles at the start of the thread! Edit - just checked, not there, but will add Langford)

Regards, Paul

I'm pretty sure Mellor is 1990 Gunner Norman Mellor - he's the only Mellor I have on my MMGS spread sheet  (though I did not have a battery for him previously) His number is in the range for an original 19th MMG member and he has no 1915 Star.

Hargreaves without doubt is  36581 Gunner Thomas Hargreaves.  He has a service record . Aged 30 Years 4 Months  and a  fitter to trade he joined 15/5/1916. Posted to 19th MMG from Base Depot (Camiers) 31/5/1917. To India 29/11/1917 arriving 9/1/1918. He shows en route home 23/10/1919 and to reserve 19/12/1919  Record shows him being on strength at Quetta 15/12/1918 He appears to have come off a territorial contract to re enlist in MGC(M) first enlisting 10/10/1914 - previously with 2/10 Manchester regiment.

He has a couple of raps on his conduct sheet while in Quetta  - Witnessed by "BSM Adair". He was 514 Byron Adair MID,MSM from Northern Ireland  - he was another "Hythe " man and ex 9th Royal Irish Rifles. Original BSM with 7th MMG he swapped into 19th MMG before they moved to India.  Also witnessed by "Cpl. Chapman"  and punishment awarded by Captain  Carnochan.  The conduct sheet is signed off by Erlebach 17/10/1919 and by his signature possibly Acting Major by then.