Medals of the Central Powers

[Kimberley John Lindsay]

Dear Dave,

I am happy to be able to answer your question - but only after having had a look at the slim volume of "Die Orden und Ehrenzeichen der deutschen Bundesstaaten im Weltkrieg 1914-1918" (Melchior Historischer Verlag; Reprint 2011).

The ribbon is a new one in my experience - but the scan tells it all.

Kindest regards,

Kim.

[depaor01]

8 hours ago, Kimberley John Lindsay said:

Dear Dave,

I am happy to be able to answer your question - but only after having had a look at the slim volume of "Die Orden und Ehrenzeichen der deutschen Bundesstaaten im Weltkrieg 1914-1918" (Melchior Historischer Verlag; Reprint 2011).

The ribbon is a new one in my experience - but the scan tells it all.

Kindest regards,

Kim.

Excellent! Thanks Kim. I had given up.

I might purchase and reunite the correct ribbon with the correct order.

Dave

[trajan]

17 hours ago, Kimberley John Lindsay said:

... Nimmergut reference book, it seems as if your (looks silver?) Friedrich-August-Medaille is on a 'Friedensband' (as opposed to a Kriegsband which was yellow and black stripes), which would make it unusual. ... if you carefully nestle the rings and latch-devices behind the ribbons, and close the ribbons with a little needlework, it will be as original (see the Ltn Schneider EKII group, for example).

 

Many thanks again Kim for helping me through this unknown territory.

 

Nimmergut seems to be a good and useful reference work - does (s)he say anything on reasons for the individual awards as opposed to just describing them?

 

As regards the FA medaille, I thought it was something washed with a copper coat, but it is non-magnetic, and so not a '1918' copper-washed iron one so I guess it has to be tarnished silver. As we have the museum guy with the portable XRF machine in the department on Monday I'll try and get it checked by him - also the Kyff. medallion, as it would be interesting to see what metal was used for this. And I'll see if I can find a reliable seamstress!

 

best wishes,

 

Julian

[Kimberley John Lindsay]

Dear Julian,

Yes, just the thing: a seamstress or your local Istanbul tailor: a few stiches as decribed and Voila! Super group!

Perhaps beforehand polishing that FA to near-gleaming silver (it would be a II. Klasse, then, as opposed to a III.Klasse).

The reference book is a paper-back "Deutsche Orden und Ehrenzeichen 1800-1945" by Jörg Nimmergut (Bearbeiter: Gerd Scharfenberg); Battenberg Verlag, 2010. But, no, only the orders and medals are shown (a different volume has only ribbons), without much comment - but it runs to 896 pages, nonetheless... 

Kindest regards,

Kim.

Edited 31 May , 2017 by Kimberley John Lindsay

[bob lembke]

18 hours ago, GreyC said:

   

With their joining the Norddeutsche Bund in 1866 they relinquished their right to sport their own forces around 1867 and agreed to Prussian leadership in war as in peace. To compensate for the loss of military independence Bremen, Hamburg and Lübeck were granted "their own" Infanterie-Regiments:

Bremen

2. Oktober 1866 – Infanterie-Regiment Nr. 75 established

7. November 1867 – 1. Hanseatisches Infanterie-Regiment Nr. 75

5. September 1904 (Kaiserparade) – Infanterie-Regiment „Bremen“ (1. Hanseatisches) Nr. 75

Hamburg

30. Oktober 1866 - Infanterie-Regiment Nr. 76 established

7. November 1867 -   2. Hanseatisches Regiment Nr. 76

5. September 1904 - Infanterie-Regiment "Hamburg" (2. Hanseatisches) Nr. 76

Lübeck

1. April 1897 -  Infanterie-Regiment 162

5. September 1904 (?) - Infanterie-Regiment "Lübeck" (3. Hanseatisches) Nr. 162 (3rd bataillion in Eutin)

 

Awarded since 1915 all members of these three regiments, which mainly recruited from the cities they were named after (with the exception of the IR1 62), were eligible to get the Hanseatenkreuz.

 

 

I have a few questions in this general area. 

 

As as I said, the probably unspoken  deal that my father and other had with the flame regiment was that he got no medals during the war, except for his wound badge, and no promotion from Pionier (engineer private), despite later commanding a Flamm=Trupp, which should have been commanded by a low-ranking NCO. But no apparent punishment for shooting the company commander, in concert with others. (The officer was terrible.)

 

so so he got his EK II in 1921, from the Ministry. And later his Hindenburg cross. And Wound Badge. But he also told me that he was eligible for the "Hanseatic Cross". So I guess that his flame unit (perhaps a platoon) was sent to assist an attack by a Hanseatic unit, and some Crosses were awarded. 

 

What at about an Altoona unit? Was Altoona incorporated into Hamburg in 1918? I think IR 31 was an Altoona regiment, and I have the unit history, or one volume of it. My father's mother was a Danish woman living in Hamburg or possibly Altoona. (Don't ask. My grandfather had two wives. His wife poisoned him with Deadly Nightshade.)

 

I have begun "writing the book ". Any help with these questions appreciated. 

[GreyC]

Hi Bob,

now there are some interesting questions with regard to the history of the city of Hamburg and the State of Hamburg and Altona which were not always the same, as the State of Hamburg was almost always bigger than the city. Even until the 1990s there were small changes in the territorial size of the State. In the time in question Hamburg had different territorial boundaries. The city was surrounded by different provinces of the Kingdom, later State of Prussia, of which the province of Schleswig-Holstein was one. This province was itself a hottly contested piece of land between Denmark, Prussia and the dukedoms of Schleswig and Holstein (and others). Both came under Danish rule in 1460 under the provision that they (Schleswig and Holstein) were never to be seperated. The problem was, that the Danish king ruled in these two regions not as King of Denmark, but as Duke of Schleswig and of Holstein. Whereas Schleswig belonged to the Kingdom of Denmark, Holstein was part of the German Empire. The King of Denmark therefore as Duke of Schleswig, was not only his own boss but as the Duke of Holstein also liege to the German Kaiser. And here the drama unfolds... To cut a long story short: It got even more complicated and some wanted independence and all that, oh well! As a result of the first war of unification between 1864 and 1866, however, Danmark lost  Schleswig and Holstein which became Prussian territory. The province Schleswig-Holstein. So, Altona (not Altoona, that´s the spelling of a  city in the US which was founded by homesick emigrants from Altona who were to confused to spell it correctly ;-) ) previously the second largest city of the kingdom of Denmark, became a large city in the state of Prussia. As a result of the lost WW1, Danmark reclaimed and got parts of what was once lost. Altona, though, remained Prussian. When the National Socialists came to power, they by virtue of dictatorial powers, decided to change the map a bit not only worldwide, but also within Germany. They made what was called a Groß-Hamburg Gesetz in January of 1937 that came into effect in April of that year. It not only affected the territorial boundaries of Hamburg, but also those of other provinces. Lübeck even lost its independence after well over 750 years and became part of the province Schleswig Holstein. Hamburg profited the most (hence the name of the law) as, although it relinquished some territory, gained the former Prussian cities of Wandsbek, Harburg and Altona, among other bits of land.

So: Altona is only part of Hamburg and has been ever since that law. The IR 31 was Prussian. It was dissolved after WW1. Members of it were only eligible to a Hanseatenkreuz if they conformed to the "other" requirements stated in my previous post. Therefore your dad´s wife possibly  being Danish makes sense in this part of the world.

Hope I didn´t bore you all to death with my lengthy blabla.

GreyC

[trajan]

On 5/31/2017 at 21:44, GreyC said:

... Hope I didn´t bore you all to death with my lengthy blabla.

 

I doubt it! All interesting stuff. I face difficulty always in explaining to my students where the Nydam ship was found and where currently displayed - Schleswig Holstein yes, but Denmark or Germany?

 

Anyway, to immediately relavant matters, namely a medal pair to match the Feldspange in post no. 159 - which Kim corrected the identify thereof in post no. 161 as an EK II with a Hamburg Hanseatenkreuz. And here is the Ordensspange to go with it, thanks to some sleuthing on the part of others! The legend on the back of the Hamburg one is "Für Verdienst im Kriege 1914". No 'Hindenburger' in this group, and so pre 1934.

 

Julian

Edited 2 June , 2017 by trajan
Correction

[GreyC]

Hi Julian,

a nice pair!

GreyC

[trench whistle]

All this talk of German awards reminded me that I bought a Mecklenburg Schwerin war merit cross II class last year. Sadly it is broken and is missing the small loop the suspension ring passes through. Does anybody know if this is repairable? Iron crosses being silver framed are easy to mend with silver solder, but what is the Mecklenburg Schwerin made of? 

Jim 

[trajan]

On 6/5/2017 at 22:19, trench whistle said:

... Does anybody know if this is repairable?... what is the Mecklenburg Schwerin made of? 

 

I think Medaler might be able to help with the first, and Kim with the second... Is it this one, described as gilded bronze, and reproduced here for reference from: http://www.ehrenzeichen-orden.de/deutsche-staaten/militar-verdienstkreuz-2-klasse-1914.html

[Medaler]

Hiya,

I think Julian is crediting me with a greater knowledge than I have! If Jim could post a picture of his damaged "Mecklenburg Schwerin war merit cross II" - that shows the extent of the damage - I will do my best to advise. If all else fails, I know a guy who can almost certainly help, so just PM me for his details. Please note, I am not on commission, I just  know that if this guy can't help then probably nobody can!

 

One of the few repairs I have attempted was to a Kabul to Kandahar Star. It came to me at half price because one of the "pearls" in the inner points of the star had been broken off and lost. I made a mould using bluetack of one of the intact pearls, and filled it with melted candle wax. Trimmed the wax to fix, superglued it on, and painted it with humbrol enamels to match the tone of the rest of the medal. It worked a treat, and if I ever want to pass it on, all I need to do is snap the pearl off and, hey presto, its back to just as I found it. It's almost certainly not an approved restoration technique, but it does do the job, and is 100% reversible without damaging the original parts of the medal in any way.

 

For a suspension ring repair / replacement, which needs a strong means of attachment, you are almost certainly going to need to resort to soldering. If you do that on gilded bronze, I would imagine that you would also destroy some of the finish in the surrounding area. When they were made I would imagine that the rings were soldered on before they were gilded. A lot also depends on what you want to do with it afterwards and how much stress the new joint will be under.  Again though, I would point out that I am no expert on this.

 

Regards,

Mike

Edited 7 June , 2017 by Medaler

[AOK4]

On 31/5/2017 at 20:44, GreyC said:

The IR 31 was Prussian. It was dissolved after WW1.

 

Officially it was the 1. Thüringisches...

 

(but I don't know how that can be explained)

[trench whistle]

4 hours ago, trajan said:

 

I think Medaler might be able to help with the first, and Kim with the second... Is it this one, described as gilded bronze, and reproduced here for reference from: http://www.ehrenzeichen-orden.de/deutsche-staaten/militar-verdienstkreuz-2-klasse-1914.html

Yes that's the one. I tried to attach a photo of mine but got an error message. Anyhow mine is just the same but missing the entire suspension i.e the little loop at the top of the medal and the ring that passes through it. I once had a silversmith repair an EKII with the same damage which was a simple and cheap job, just solder on a new silver loop and ring. I would like to restore this medal in the same way so that it can be hung from a ribbon, however if they are gilded bronze I guess they maybe beyond repair.

Jim

[trajan]

1 hour ago, AOK4 said:

 

Officially it was the 1. Thüringisches...(but I don't know how that can be explained)

 

As I understand it, the regiment was attached to the AK IX based on Altona and so was in the Bremen region - but I don't mind being corrected on that!

[trajan]

3 hours ago, Medaler said:

... I think Julian is crediting me with a greater knowledge than I have! ... I know a guy who can almost certainly help, so just PM me for his details.

 

Not all all, you do have the experience and so  the contact!

 

44 minutes ago, trench whistle said:

 .. if they are gilded bronze I guess they maybe beyond repair.

 

No idea, but Medaler's mate might know - never despair!

[Medaler]

Hi Jim,

 

Thanks for the detail on the damage. The first thing you need to do is source the parts. I am sure that the lads on here who own examples would charge to your aid and tell you ..................

 

The outside diameter of the small ring.

The thickness of the wire that that it is formed from.

The outside diameter of the large ring.

The thickness of the wire that that it is formed from.

 

Sadly I can't do that as I don't own one!

 

Armed with that info, you might be able to source the parts from a jeweler. I think I would aim for plain bronze parts if I could find them. You could also ask about the viability of the repair. The medal itself will require prep to remove any left over solder from the attachment of the original ring to expose just enough of the material under the plating to give the strongest possibility of making a solid attachment. I think it should be a job that could be done competently by any good jeweler, and should not cost a fortune.

 

Warmest regards,

Mike

[trench whistle]

Thanks Mike,

I won't write off the possibility of a repair just yet. It seems from a quick search that bronze wire is available in a range of thicknesses so I just need to do a bit of research and have a chat with a jeweler. It would be good to bring it back to its former glory.

Jim

[Medaler]

7 minutes ago, trench whistle said:

Thanks Mike,

I won't write off the possibility of a repair just yet. It seems from a quick search that bronze wire is available in a range of thicknesses so I just need to do a bit of research and have a chat with a jeweler. It would be good to bring it back to its former glory.

Jim

 

You are most welcome Jim. I have had several medals "restored" by the contact I mentioned earlier, but they have all related to the fitting of suspenders and clasps on British medals. The only other thing I have attempted myself is fitting rings onto a couple of Victory Medals where they were absent.

 

Restoration is perhaps one of those things that divides the medal collecting fraternity as much as the clean/don't clean argument. The other thought of course is that any repair might push your investment beyond its actual value. To be frank, I don't let that worry me too much because I like to think that I am contributing towards saving the item for future generations. Quite famously I once bought a QSA at auction without its suspender, thinking that the bits would be cheap enough to make it a bargain. As it turned out, I somewhat underestimated the price of the bits. Still, the job has been done, the bits used were original parts, and the quality of the repair was excellent. It was nothing special, just a single clasp "Cape Colony", but I feel as though I have "done my bit" for both it and the memory of the lad who it was awarded to. You never know, if I live to 120, and inflation carries on, I might just about break even.

 

The interesting part of that story is that I was given the choice of an original swivel suspender or a fixed suspender intended for a BWM, which would have been a fair bit cheaper. Somehow fitting the wrong type of suspender felt like a crime, even though they do look very similar. That became a very easy decision to make. I would imagine that it would be impossible to source original parts for your medal, so you can only do the best that you can. A real expert on German kit might well give you a much better answer, they are not really my field at all. That is why you should take my opinion on this with a bit of a pinch of salt.

 

Warmest regards,

Mike

 

[Kimberley John Lindsay]

Dear Mike,

Yes, GWFs have diverging thoughts about To Clean/Not to Clean. But how about To re-mount/Not to re-mount? 

The group in question has a rapidly-disintegrating QSA ribbon, and a stressed 15 Star ribbon. The two aforementioned could be 1) replaced with new or used ribbons, or 2) the original QSA ribbon could be stitched together, and the 15 Star ribbon put back into place and the whole re-mounted.

Or, 3): just leave it as is!

The recipient (H. G. Webb), incidentally went to the same school (Oxford High School for Boys) as did T. E. Lawrence, their times crossing by one year.

His QSA and clasps was for Rifle Brigade service as an A-Sjt. Interestingly, he was commissioned into the Yorks and Lancs (France), and then went to India with the 1st Garrison Yorkshires, being attached to the Indian Munitions Dept. (Military clothing). In this capacity he oversaw factories in Madras, Calcutta, and Burma...

Kindest regards,

Kim.

[trajan]

5 hours ago, Kimberley John Lindsay said:

... To re-mount/Not to re-mount? ... 

 

Tricky one that... And much depends naturally on whether this is a group for display or one in the cabinet... In my opinion, it is nicer to leave original ribbons on, but those ones could do with a bit of careful needlework!

 

A nice group, though, and the Oxford High School for Boys yet stands, although now used as OxonU's History faculty HQ - and I walk past it everyday when working in Oxford! Oh, and there is a pub next door, named the Four Candles in honour of another former old boy, Ronnie Barker, famous for a comic sketch which begins with him walking into a hardware store and - dropping his 'aitches' - gets four candles when asking for "Fork 'andles", as in "'Andles, for forks"....

[Medaler]

Kim,

 

My vote on that group of 4 would be to leave the ribbons alone and not clean. The reasons being that they are toned rather than dirty, and the ribbons are not too bad. I think the stock phrase would be "showing signs commensurate with age and wear". I have seen plenty worse - and I am sure you have too!

 

Do I replace ribbons? - Yes - frequently, but I always save the originals. Unlike yourself I buy lots of singles and, on many occasions, the original ribbons are either not present, too short for display purposes, or really tatty and scruffy. When it comes to replacements however I must admit that I do use modern ribbon rather than try to seek out better examples of the original.

 

Do I clean? - Yes. I hate verdigris, and believe it to be the equivalent to "bronze cancer". I will always remove that - and then you have to clean the rest of the medal. I also buy many which are covered in white "Brasso" stains from poor cleaning in the past. To me, cleaning for those reasons is actually more in line with a restoration process. Some of the medals in my collection have been with me for 40 years and, amongst those, very few of them have ever been cleaned more than once. Many have never been cleaned at all. Its all about "balance" really and we all just do "the best that we can". Some of the examples that I have cleaned over the years are actually gaining a vastly superior patina to what they had when I found them, and are much more "even" than they were.

 

I'm not saying that what I do is "right", but at least there are logical (ish) reasons behind it. I think some of it may come from the fact that I collect to casualties, and therefore buy what interests me in that respect without being too concerned about the condition that I find them in. If I restricted myself to local casualties in EF condition I doubt I would ever get to actually own any!

 

Regards,

Mike

[Kimberley John Lindsay]

Dear Mike,

All that you have written makes sense and I agree, by and large - especially concerning 'balance' (which also applies to life in general).

Interesting is the fact that you collect to casualties, whereas that is an area I circumnavigate! Several of the Officers in my collection were wounded, however (including my grandfather).

I had to laugh at the 'bronze cancer', and thought it was an appropriate description, often ruining Victory Medals and thereby spoiling the group.

Thanks for your sympathetic response, also Julian...

Kindest regards,

Kim.

[trajan]

So, here we go with another nice if anonymous little group, as I work towards getting a representative selection of German medal groups! This one has an EK2, a Braunschweiger Kriegsverdienstkreuz 2nd Class (as http://www.ehrenzeichen-orden.de/deutsche-staaten/braunschweig-kriegsverdienstkreuz-2-klasse.html ) plus a combatant's "Hindenburger". Can't see who the EK maker was but the Hindenburger is marked "32 / RV. Pforzheim" = Reichsverband Arbeitsgemeinschaft Heinrich Vogt, Pforzheim. And there is also a nice buttonhole device to go with it all, marked - it looks to be - "C.W.&Co SOLIDE"! This is a known maker - see: e.g., http://www.ebay.com/itm/GErmany-WW1-3-Medal-Koniggratz-Cross-Ribbon-Lapel-1866-Prussia-German-Civil-War-/400985064310?_ul=BO and perhaps a connection with an erstwhile watch maker: http://www.global-horology.com/GHMB/viewtopic.php?f=48&t=7512 ????

 

 

[Kimberley John Lindsay]

Dear Julian,

Well done!

An excellent addition to your collection - the Braunschweig award being one which is seldom seen.

Kindest regards,

Kim.

[Sepoy]

Although I have a number of single WW1 Prussian and other German State medals, this is my only medal group. An Imperial German Red Cross Medal and a Prussian Merit Cross for War Aid.

Sepoy

Edited 10 June , 2017 by Sepoy