Kimberley John Lindsay Posted 16 May , 2017 Share Posted 16 May , 2017 Dear All, Here is a post-Great War example of a "Frackspange":- It shows a civilian wearing his war medals with white tie and tails, as a guest at a family wedding. Kindest regards, Kim. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kimberley John Lindsay Posted 16 May , 2017 Share Posted 16 May , 2017 (edited) Dear All, Here are two more examples of the so-called "Frackspange": the second one with "Nichtkämpferband" (non-combattant-ribbon... Comments from fellow-enthusiasts (or even the contrary!) would be welcome. Kindest regards, Kim. Edited 16 May , 2017 by Kimberley John Lindsay Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robins2 Posted 16 May , 2017 Share Posted 16 May , 2017 32 minutes ago, Kimberley John Lindsay said: Dear All, Here is a post-Great War example of a "Frackspange":- It shows a civilian wearing his war medals with white tie and tails, as a guest at a family wedding. Kindest regards, Kim. interesting they would wear the EK uppermost as opposed to the officer on left of photo wearing it first in line, also your photos of the diagonal wear on the Naval officers has the EK first in line, would this be a standard for wear with civilian clothing (EK uppermost) regards Bob R. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kimberley John Lindsay Posted 16 May , 2017 Share Posted 16 May , 2017 (edited) Dear Bob, Yes, the officer on left of wedding photo is wearing his EKII Ordenspange (medal group) in the conventional, furled mounted, way, on his normal-dress uniform. The Naval officer (Graf Luckner) wore his full-dress uniform, with the EKII Ordenspange mounted conventionally, but diagonal to the jacket-flap of the uniform, peculiar to the Marine. Back to the wedding photo. The civilian is wearing his white tie and tails (Frack), and - peculiat to this form of dress, the Frackspange mounted with the medals in reverse, and hanging diagonally, so that the EKII was uppermost, when worn under the jacket-flap of the coat. I am pleased that you asked! Kindest regards, Kim. Edited 16 May , 2017 by Kimberley John Lindsay Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Medaler Posted 16 May , 2017 Share Posted 16 May , 2017 (edited) 13 hours ago, robins2 said: I find that particular medal one of my favorites, not as common as the rest, although Kim (post 119) states it is post war issued?, it is a shame they did not name their medals, would make it a lot easier to research. regards Bob R. I don't think "post war issued" is a derogatory term, after all, most of the important campaign medals were not issued until well after the shooting had stopped. Off topic for this thread, but I have recently managed to at last get my hands on an example of the Belgian medal for the occupation of the Rhineland. It would perhaps be difficult to get more "post war" than that, but its still part of the story. Well, according to my view of things it is! Warmest regards, Mike Edited 16 May , 2017 by Medaler Hit "post" before I had done (eejut). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robins2 Posted 16 May , 2017 Share Posted 16 May , 2017 6 minutes ago, Kimberley John Lindsay said: Dear Bob, Yes, the officer on left of wedding photo is wearing his EKII Ordenspange (medal group) in the conventional, furled mounted, way, on his normal-dress uniform. The Naval officer (Graf Luckner) wore his full-dress uniform, with the EKII Ordenspange mounted conventionally, but diagonal to the jacket-flap of the uniform, peculiar to the Marine. Back to the wedding photo. The civilian is wearing his white toe and tails (Frack), and - peculiat to this form of dress, the Frackspange mounted with the medals in reverse, and hanging diagonally, so that the EKII was uppermost, when worn under the jacket-flap of the coat. I am pleased that you asked! Kindest regards, Kim. Very Interesting variations of wear, thanks for posting regards Bob R. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khaki Posted 17 May , 2017 Share Posted 17 May , 2017 Nothing to add to previous posts but here for your interest, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kimberley John Lindsay Posted 17 May , 2017 Share Posted 17 May , 2017 Dear Khaki and other GWF afficionados, While it seems clear that, say, an EKII and a Hamburg Hanseatenkreuz would have been awarded to a soldier (or sailor) from Hamburg; and an EKII, and a Baden Zähringerlöwe Order would have been given to an Officer from Baden (as in the case of my wife's maternal grandfather), what about other combinations? I asked a German expert (Dr Spath) about why some Imperial German EKII groups have additionally several different Principality awards. His answer:- 'That is a complex and complicated question. 1. A lot of the large military units during the final years of the Great War were mixed with people from different parts of Imperial Germany. The Divisions received a quota of awards from the various German states, and these went to their own people, but not exclusively. 2. Furthermore, if a soldier was wounded, and subsequently returned to the Field, there was no guarantie that he would be returned to his parent unit. He might then receive a further distinction, from his new unit's state. 3. Different companies or battalions, during a battle, were inter-changed with other (state) units, and therefore, a soldier might get a decoration from yet another state. 4. And so on...' While I was very pleased to get a reply from someone who had written a lengthy treatise on the Hessen Tapferkeitsmedaille, and thanked him accordingly, I must admit that I was really none the wiser. Surprisingly - for such an orderly-loving people - the Imperial German awards system seems to have been haphazard. Having said that, the Germans were obviously exceedingly liberal when awarding the EKII (perhaps on a par with the Croix de Guerre), whereas the British did not have anything comparable, as far as a widely-awarded and nonetheless highly coveted gallantry award was concerned... As usual, I would welcome comment, be it adverse or otherwise, on this subject! Kindest regards, Kim. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khaki Posted 17 May , 2017 Share Posted 17 May , 2017 (edited) As the Prussian army inclusive of other minor states was the largest formation and as the EK was in principle a Prussian award It would seem logical that the number of awards would outnumber any other award, similarly the KVK (Bavarian) and also the 2nd largest army formation was also widely awarded compared to for example Lippe. Possibly small states may have given strict guidelines on the number of their awards that could be awarded by other Kingdoms, Principalities and so on ? khaki Edited 17 May , 2017 by Khaki Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Medaler Posted 17 May , 2017 Share Posted 17 May , 2017 (edited) 26 minutes ago, Kimberley John Lindsay said: .......the Germans were obviously exceedingly liberal when awarding the EKII (perhaps on a par with the Croix de Guerre), whereas the British did not have anything comparable, as far as a widely-awarded and nonetheless highly coveted gallantry award was concerned... As usual, I would welcome comment, be it adverse or otherwise, on this subject! Kindest regards, Kim. Hiya, From my understanding we did have an equivalent, in the form of the Oak leaf for MID. Having said that though, they do seem to turn up rather less frequently than either the EKII or Croix de Guerre. This is however not something that I have studied in great depth! Actually, that is a bit of a sore point with me as I am fortunate enough to own a Victorian pair to a lad from our local village who fought on the North West Frontier and the Boer War. He was MID with the mounted infantry but, in his day, the Oak Leaf did not exist! Regards, Mike Edited 17 May , 2017 by Medaler Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khaki Posted 17 May , 2017 Share Posted 17 May , 2017 (edited) 10 minutes ago, Medaler said: Actually, that is a bit of a sore point with me as I am fortunate enough to own a Victorian pair to a lad from our local village who fought on the North West Frontier and the Boer War. He was MID with the mounted infantry but, in his day, the Oak Leaf did not exist! Regards, Mike Interesting, was the recipient given an award certificate? and the 14/18 oak leaf MID was not worn retroactive? khaki Edited 17 May , 2017 by Khaki Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kimberley John Lindsay Posted 17 May , 2017 Share Posted 17 May , 2017 (edited) Dear Mike, dear Khaki, dear GWFs, Yes, the MiD was widely-awarded (the Oak-leaf was very much an afterthought, only being sanctioned by GVR in 1920), but just look at the numbers:- Tamplin & Abbott have 141,000 Mentions in Despatches, 1914-20. Figures for the EKII run to 5 1/2 million, and even the EKI (principally awarded to Officers), has a figure of 218,000. Unfortunately, the numbers for the Principality awards are not easily seen - although Dr Spath gave a number of 30 to 40,000 for the Hessen Tapferkeitsmedaille... Kindest regards, Kim. Edited 17 May , 2017 by Kimberley John Lindsay Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Medaler Posted 17 May , 2017 Share Posted 17 May , 2017 (edited) 1 hour ago, Khaki said: Interesting, was the recipient given an award certificate? and the 14/18 oak leaf MID was not worn retroactive? khaki They are both good points - and something I actually can't give an "official" answer on. There may have been a certificate at some point, but I have never seen one. That may however be more down to me never having tried to see if such a thing existed! - He does get a mention for it in the London Gazette which is how I know about it. As for Oak leaves, I don't think they were backdated to previous wars / campaigns. All I can really say on that score is that, in over 40 years of collecting, I have never seen one on the ribbon of either an Edwardian or Victorian medal. That tends to point me down the road of thinking that they couldn't be claimed for anything that occurred before WW1. In addition, the dress regulations are quite specific. They state that the leaves were to be worn on the ribbon of the Victory medal. If the recipient didn't have a VM, it was worn on the ribbon of his British War Medal and, if he/she ddn't have one of those either, it was worn directly "on the coat where that ribbon would have been had he/she been entitled to one". No mention of it being worn on any other ribbons at all. All that leads me to treat the MID as if it was a separate medal in its own right, but that also touches on another pet subject of mine. When is a medal not a medal? There are lots of examples when I think about it. For example, the German wound badges shown in this thread. Medal, or not a medal? - Then our own "wound stripes", worn on the cuff - Medal, or not a medal? - It perhaps makes you think more deeply about it when you remember the French "Insignee du Blesse Miitaire" or the US Purple Heart which are obviously medals that were awarded for pretty much the same thing. All that is way off beam for this thread - Sorry for taking the space up on your thread Julian!! - but I find it an interesting and thought provoking subject. 1 hour ago, Kimberley John Lindsay said: Dear Mike, dear Khaki, dear GWFs, Yes, the MiD was widely-awarded (the Oak-leaf was very much an afterthought, only being sanctioned by GVR in 1920), but just look at the numbers:- Tamplin & Abbott have 141,000 Mentions in Despatches, 1914-20. Figures for the EKII run to 5 1/2 million, and even the EKI (principally awarded to Officers), has a figure of 218,000. Unfortunately, the numbers for the Principality awards are not easily seen - although Dr Spath gave a number of 30 to 40,000 for the Hessen Tapferkeitsmedaille... Kindest regards, Kim. There you have the edge on me Kim - I had no idea of the numbers! They make interesting reading now that you have quoted them. Again, sorry to have corrupted your thread Julian. I really can't add anything at all useful to a thread on German awards as I know so little about them. That however should not be taken as a sign that I don't find them interesting!! I fear my contributions here are more like the way a conversation might develop amongst us all if we were to meet up in pub somewhere! Warmest regards to all, Mike Edited 17 May , 2017 by Medaler Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 22 May , 2017 Author Share Posted 22 May , 2017 On 5/17/2017 at 21:37, Medaler said: ... All that is way off beam for this thread - Sorry for taking the space up on your thread Julian!! - but I find it an interesting and thought provoking subject. ... I really can't add anything at all useful to a thread on German awards as I know so little about them. That however should not be taken as a sign that I don't find them interesting!! I fear my contributions here are more like the way a conversation might develop amongst us all if we were to meet up in pub somewhere! Well, to one and all sorry not to have been involved in this thread the past few days - I am in the UK presently and was doing library research during the day and had a host of family matters to deal with every evening! So, this is my first chance on-line for a week and lots of interesting stuff above - many thanks to one an all for informing each and everyone of us! Which serves also to reply to Medaler - a place to learn and to play, Mike: and yes, a very suitable pub discussion topic also (says I, skiving off from Sheffield uni library to have a drink and catch up on GWF!)... However, fair warning lads... I got in contact with an ex-archaeologist who is now a dealer in German medals and associated items, and he has been feeding my desire to widen my own collection and knowledge of the topic, and so I promise you a few more to come from my side!!! So, perhaps I should re-title the thread? Any suggestions? Best wishes to all, Julian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martin Feledziak Posted 22 May , 2017 Share Posted 22 May , 2017 How about "Axis nations, medals, other awards and decorations. Martin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khaki Posted 22 May , 2017 Share Posted 22 May , 2017 A dedicated thread on the medals of the Central Powers would be very useful, no disrespect but isn't the term "AXIS" of WW2 provenance ? khaki Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 23 May , 2017 Author Share Posted 23 May , 2017 19 hours ago, Khaki said: ... but isn't the term "AXIS" of WW2 provenance ? It is indeed! I would like to keep something of the original title in for the thread to guide those who might have looked in occasionally (like myself recently!) and so propose "An EK 2/'Hindenburg' combatant's pair and other 'enemy' awards'. Oh, and yes, anything WW1 related counts in this context, but would propose a cut-off with WW2, as by then all the German and Austrian commemoratives had basically run their course - noting that there were/are (as far as I know) nothing issued after 1918 for members of the Ottoman army... Julian (currently enjoying an airbrau bier in Munich airport, well worth the 5 hour lay-over!) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
depaor01 Posted 23 May , 2017 Share Posted 23 May , 2017 Weimar Awards...? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kimberley John Lindsay Posted 23 May , 2017 Share Posted 23 May , 2017 Dear All, 'The Iron Time'...? Kindest regards, Kim. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kimberley John Lindsay Posted 23 May , 2017 Share Posted 23 May , 2017 Dear Julian and all the other Followers! Bad news regarding my just-acquired (Post 27; Post 109) EKII group of five. At first glance one would have thought that the recipient of such an array of 1914-18 decorations would have been an officer. Research has dictated otherwise! The Bavarian Military Merit Cross 3rd Class is the giveaway. Approximately 290,000 of the 3rd class with Swords were awarded (these were issued with certificates), including one to AH, for example. The award was the Kingdom of Bavaria's principal decoration for bravery during 1914-18... The original warrant read thus: '...zur Belohnung Außergewöhnliche Verdienste der Unteroffiziere, Soldaten und untere Militärbeamten' (to reward extraordinary merit by non-commissioned officers, soldiers, and lower-ranking officials). One is of course disappointed on the one hand (bearing in mind that my British Collection is almost exclusively "officers only"), but one is still attracted by the symmetry of the well-mounted and nicely-preserved EKII group to some unknown soldier or official. As far as the money outlay is concerned - by next month, this will be "water under the bridge" - and I have the medals! Kindest regards, Kim. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khaki Posted 23 May , 2017 Share Posted 23 May , 2017 I suggest simply Medals of the Central Powers. khaki Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 24 May , 2017 Author Share Posted 24 May , 2017 (edited) 15 hours ago, Khaki said: ... Medals of the Central Powers. ... I think you have it there and, to be sure, the OED gives this as one definition: "A metal object, usually of the size and form of a coin, struck or cast with an inscription, a head or effigy of a person, or other device or image on one or both sides; spec. (a) one intended to record, commemorate, or celebrate a person, institution, place, or event; (b) one awarded as a distinction to a soldier, etc., for bravery or other service rendered to a country, etc." So that would cover also those Freikorps commemoratives and the like. So, many thanks for the suggestion - already incorporated - and stand-by for another 'new' set from me! Julian Edited 24 May , 2017 by trajan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 24 May , 2017 Author Share Posted 24 May , 2017 17 hours ago, Kimberley John Lindsay said: ... Bad news regarding my just-acquired (Post 27; Post 109) EKII group of five. At first glance one would have thought that the recipient of such an array of 1914-18 decorations would have been an officer. Research has dictated otherwise! ... But it is still a nice group! I wonder if the order in which they are mounted has any direct relevance with regard to thee recipient? That is to say, this group once belonged to a Bavarian who after service with a Bavarian unit, then saw service in or attached to a succession of units that were home-based in / originated from: Oldenburg; Hessen; and Bremen, and who was awarded the Prussian EK along the way? Just a wild suggestion, and I am perfectly happy to be corrected! Julian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 24 May , 2017 Author Share Posted 24 May , 2017 My 'German medal man' contact has just informed me about an 13.05.1923 dated Urkunde for a EK I (with the medal) issued that day for service in, yes, WW1... This is on sale by a certain site we are not supposed to link to, but may I just note for the curious that it can be found by googling... However, my main point is that this gives some good firm evidence for what Bob Lemke mentioned in an earlier post, that EK's were being awarded substantially post WW1... Julian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khaki Posted 24 May , 2017 Share Posted 24 May , 2017 1 hour ago, trajan said: . However, my main point is that this gives some good firm evidence for what Bob Lemke mentioned in an earlier post, that EK's were being awarded substantially post WW1... Julian I certainly agree with Bob, it also may be supported by EK award documents that I have seen that do not have any reference to the Kaiser and are simple 'strips' of typed paper trimmed to fit in a soldbuch and signed by an officer. Some other (later) EK documents are very large and elaborate suitable for framing. khaki Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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