trajan Posted 2 July , 2017 Author Share Posted 2 July , 2017 I came across this photo-card this morning at the monthly Antika Pazar, of some Turkish officers wearing the uniforms of the 1924-1933 period. I thought it might be of interest here as one of them, in the middle, has both the Eisenernes Kreuz II Klasse and a Harp Madlyasi, or Eisernes Halb-mond, and so is a WW1 'veteran' entitled to both. As I understand it the rank symbols are: three stars (in the middle) = Korgeneneral (Lt.General); two stars (seated left and right) = Tümgeneral (Maj.General); and one star (standing) = Tuggeneral (Brig. General). There is Osmanli script on the back which I will have to get translated, but the use thereof suggests this photo-card was made before 1st January 1929 when the Turkish law of 1st November 1928 came into affect, so changing the alphabet from Osmanli to 'Latin'. Julian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GreyC Posted 2 July , 2017 Share Posted 2 July , 2017 Hi Julian very intersting photo of high ranking Turkish military prsonnel. Haven´t seen these uniforms before. GreyC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 2 July , 2017 Author Share Posted 2 July , 2017 (edited) 3 hours ago, GreyC said: Hi Julian very intersting photo of high ranking Turkish military prsonnel. Haven´t seen these uniforms before. GreyC It is interesting - and also intriguing... The hat law, which banned the fez and the turban for public wear, and so other brimless headwear, came into force on 25th November 1925, but it seems that the Turkish army evaded this restriction until later as these guys in what is said to be the 1922-1933 uniform, have brimless Kaplaklar kalpaklar. I freely confess I know almost nowt about Turkish army uniforms and regulations, and I got the information for the date on the uniforms here from a Turkish WW1 and later 'fan'. The cap they are wearing was introduced in 1919 to replace the ridiculous kabalak or enverie they wore in WW1, and so I thought this might be from the 1919-1922/25 period, but according to my source, no! Note also that the Lt.General has something over his right as we see it breast pocket... Looks like it might be one of the clasps that went with the Liyakat Medal? Can't be for the Harp Madalyasi as does were parallelograms... And can't be a battle / war award as it lacks the crossed swords beneath it... But, there again, an entirely unfamiliar area for me! Julian Edited 2 July , 2017 by trajan spelling and clarification (IN BOLD) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GreyC Posted 7 July , 2017 Share Posted 7 July , 2017 (edited) Hi Julian, some more info w. regard to your documents of Rudolf Krüger of RIR 84. The EKII award-certificate was signed by Oberst Balthasar who led the RIR 84 from 2nd. Aug. 1914 until KIA 2nd Sept. 1916, exactly one month after having signed the certificate on 2nd. Aug. 1916 when he was exactly two years in office. His successor was Oberstlt. v. Schuckmann who led RIR 84 from 3rd Sept. 1916 - end of war. So this is the name on the VWA document. GreyC Edited 7 July , 2017 by GreyC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kimberley John Lindsay Posted 7 July , 2017 Share Posted 7 July , 2017 Dear Julian and GreyC, Good work to document Oberst Balthasar! Was he perhaps the father of Major Wilhelm Balthasar (born Fulda, 2-2-1914; KiA 3-7-1941), a successful Lutwaffe fighter pilot, shot down by a Belgian ace...? Kindest regards, Kim. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GreyC Posted 7 July , 2017 Share Posted 7 July , 2017 (edited) Hi Kim, WIKIPEDIA states that his father died in Flandres. So it won´t be Benno Balthasar, born 23.11.1865 in Langensalza (what a place of birth for professional soldier) KIA 2nd Sept. 1916 in the trenches Cite´ St. Pierre. That´s in France. The German Verlustlisten have an August Balthasar (IR135) who died in 1914. In WIKIPEDIAs article on the Balthasar familiy the father´s name of Wilhelm seems to be given as August, so I guess it must be him. GreyC Edited 7 July , 2017 by GreyC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GreyC Posted 7 July , 2017 Share Posted 7 July , 2017 Benno (whose other name was indeed Wilhelm) and August seem to have been cousins. GreyC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GreyC Posted 7 July , 2017 Share Posted 7 July , 2017 (edited) Hi all, here is more biographical information on Benno Balhasar and his successor: *23.11.1865 in Langensalza. Father August B. at that time Premier Lieutnant with the 16. Ulanen Regiment. He later died in the Franco/Prussian war in 1871. Educated in Kadettenanstalt Oranienstein and Hauptkadettenanstalt Groß Lichterfelde. As a member of the Selekta-Klasse (Elite-Kadetten who were allowed to enter the army as Sekonde-Lieutnants, not as ensigns, as was usual practice) he became part of IR 30 on 15th April 1884. Changed to Füsilier Reg. 40 (Cologne) on 22nd March 1887. 27th Jan 1893 Premier-Lieutnant. Regiment changes to Aachen in April 1895. From Jan. 1898 as assistent teacher Royal Rifle School Spandau. Back to FR 40 in September as Hauptmann. Sept. 1905 changed to IR 84 2nd Btln in Hadersleben (today Haderslev). May 1907 promoted major, short time member of staff IR 84, commander 1. Btln IR84 until Oct 1913. Promoted to Oberstleutnant 1913 same month and back to staff IR 84. 1st August 1914 commander RIR 84. Oberst 18th Oct 1915. Married at time of death almost 25 years. Shot in the head by English soldier while on inspection of trenches in St. Pierre. New commander of RIR 84 as of 3rd. Sept. 1916 Major von Schuckmann (later Oberstleutnant), hitherto comander Reserve Jäger Btln. 16. In peace time officer in Füsilier Reg. 86. Hope that helps, GreyC Edited 7 July , 2017 by GreyC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 10 July , 2017 Author Share Posted 10 July , 2017 On 7/7/2017 at 17:21, GreyC said: ... some more info w. regard to your documents of Rudolf Krüger of RIR 84. The EKII award-certificate was signed by Oberst Balthasar who led the RIR 84 from 2nd. Aug. 1914 until KIA 2nd Sept. 1916, exactly one month after having signed the certificate on 2nd. Aug. 1916 when he was exactly two years in office. ... His successor was Oberstlt. v. Schuckmann who led RIR 84 from 3rd Sept. 1916 - end of war. So this is the name on the VWA document. On 7/7/2017 at 20:01, GreyC said: more biographical information on Benno Balhasar and his successor: *23.11.1865 in Langensalza. Father August B. at that time Premier Lieutnant with the 16. Ulanen Regiment. He later died in the Franco/Prussian war in 1871. Educated in Kadettenanstalt Oranienstein and Hauptkadettenanstalt Groß Lichterfelde. As a member of the Selekta-Klasse (Elite-Kadetten who were allowed to enter the army as Sekonde-Lieutnants, not as ensigns, as was usual practice) he became part of IR 30 on 15th April 1884. Changed to Füsilier Reg. 40 (Cologne) on 22nd March 1887. 27th Jan 1893 Premier-Lieutnant. Regiment changes to Aachen in April 1895. From Jan. 1898 as assistent teacher Royal Rifle School Spandau. Back to FR 40 in September as Hauptmann. Sept. 1905 changed to IR 84 2nd Btln in Hadersleben (today Haderslev). May 1907 promoted major, short time member of staff IR 84, commander 1. Btln IR84 until Oct 1913. Promoted to Oberstleutnant 1913 same month and back to staff IR 84. 1st August 1914 commander RIR 84. Oberst 18th Oct 1915. Married at time of death almost 25 years. Shot in the head by English soldier while on inspection of trenches in St. Pierre. New commander of RIR 84 as of 3rd. Sept. 1916 Major von Schuckmann (later Oberstleutnant), hitherto comander Reserve Jäger Btln. 16. In peace time officer in Füsilier Reg. 86. Many thanks GreyC! It all helps to fill in a mental picture of the Urkunden to go with that and the man who originally received these under what circumstances, and at arm's length but by extension the type of medal group that would be associated with such documents, as in post no. 213. Greatly appreciated! Julian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 10 July , 2017 Author Share Posted 10 July , 2017 Coming back to one of the points discussed in one of the earlier posts on this thread (e.g., nos. 2 and 2, etc.), those medal bars with - among others - an Ehrenkreuz combatants cross with crossed swords on the ribbon when this is not really needed as the actual cross is there... I have just noticed another example of this at: http://www.germanmilitaria.com/Imperial/01Imperial3.html and which I reproduce here below for reference. Note also that the same page has two examples of medal bars with the EK II and the Kyffhäuserbund 'medallion' with crossed swords on the ribbon, and which I would assume will be be pre-1934 groups, i.e., before the Ehrenkreuz was introduced - again shown here for reference. And for clarity, no I have no connection with the site or these groups! Julian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 17 July , 2017 Author Share Posted 17 July , 2017 I mentioned earlier how I am trying to get certificates to go with medals and medal groups for display purposes. So, although most serious collectors will probably know what the following two look for those who don't here are the certificates to go with Ehrenkreuzen for parents (same type of cross as for a widow) and for a 'war worker'. By the way, as I understand it, the first type of cross, the blackened one for parents and widows, seems to be the rarest of the three types. Now, any suggestions on how to remove the creases in those ribbons?! Julian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kimberley John Lindsay Posted 17 July , 2017 Share Posted 17 July , 2017 Dear Julian, Yes, these once-common awards to Parents and Widows are now quite scarce - especially with the appropriate paperwork. Well done! The second one is for a 'Kriegsteilnehmer': as I understand it, someone who took part in the War, but not in a combattant role - therefore sans Swords. Perhaps, for example, 'non-combattant' rather than 'war worker'. In this particular case, he seems to have had something to do with the Railways ('Reichsbahn'), although I cannot read the rest... KIndest regards, Kim. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 17 July , 2017 Author Share Posted 17 July , 2017 36 minutes ago, Kimberley John Lindsay said: ... Yes, these once-common awards to Parents and Widows are now quite scarce - especially with the appropriate paperwork. ... The second one is for a 'Kriegsteilnehmer': as I understand it, someone who took part in the War, but not in a combattant role ... Perhaps, for example, 'non-combattant' rather than 'war worker'. ... In this particular case, he seems to have had something to do with the Railways ('Reichsbahn'), although I cannot read the rest... Hello Kim! According to one website - http://quanonline.com/military/military_reference/german/imperial/hindenburg.html - the figures for the award of the three Ehrenkreuz categories are: Widows: 345,112, and Parents: 373,950, so 719,062 total, as opposed to Combatants: 6,202,883 and Non-combatants: 1,120,449. A noteworthy difference there in the numbers given how a common figure for the total of German military deaths in WW1 is around the 2,000,000 mark. There again, I can visualise a scenario whereby somebody who was involved as a combatant or non-combatant was more likely to advertise the fact than a bereft partner or parent... On which note, yes, "'non-combattant' rather than 'war worker'" is better - thanks! This Kriegsteilnehmer certificate is an odd one though... Other than the Reichsbahn part, I have been struggling with the rest of the 'dienstrang', except that the person was not a Bahnhofsmeister - never mind a Schwabische one! (in-joke for Germanophiles!), but all we have is his surname - "Friedrich", in - I think - "Loxstedt", Kreis Wesermünde... On other things, I do take your point (made elsewhere) that it is best to get a group with the certificates rather than my 'matching' approach to make up displays, but in all honesty, I do sometimes wonder if, unless they actually come as a group direct from the family, one can ever be certain the things offered on the web and elsewhere, from reputable auction houses, really all belong together. And even then, how many examples of his own personal awards did Galland dispose of before he died? Each one guaranteed, yes, but not necessarily the one he was awarded with... Shades of Goering and his many sets of medals here, there, and everywhere! Best wishes, Julian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AOK4 Posted 17 July , 2017 Share Posted 17 July , 2017 Reichsbahn-Sekretär Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 17 July , 2017 Author Share Posted 17 July , 2017 8 minutes ago, AOK4 said: Reichsbahn-Sekretär Vielen dank! But what comes after the "Sekretär" - is that a forename before the "Friedrich"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kimberley John Lindsay Posted 17 July , 2017 Share Posted 17 July , 2017 (edited) Dear Julian, Maybe Reichsbahn-Sekretär Heinrich Friedrich in Lorstedt...? KIndest regards, Kim. Edited 17 July , 2017 by Kimberley John Lindsay Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robins2 Posted 17 July , 2017 Share Posted 17 July , 2017 re: creases, try a damp cloth with steam iron, do the underside first to ensure the colors do not run/mix regards Bob R. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GreyC Posted 18 July , 2017 Share Posted 18 July , 2017 (edited) 12 hours ago, Kimberley John Lindsay said: Dear Julian, Maybe Reichsbahn-Sekretär Heinrich Friedrich in Lorstedt...? KIndest regards, Kim. Hi, almost there. Reichsbahn-Sekretär Heinrich Friedrich in Loxstedt. The village still exist. It is near Bremerhaven. Wesermünde during that time was the county seat for this area. Wesermünde didn´t exist very long in this form under that name due to intricate geopolitical circumstances. In 1924 the independent cities Lehe and Geestemünde (both Prussian) merged to Wesermünde, surrounding Bremerhaven, which belonged to the State of Bremen. With the allmighty powers of the NSDAP the city of Bremerhaven was snatched from Bremen (except the harbour area itself which remained with the State of Bremen) and given to Prussia in 1939 under the new name Wesermünde, now comprising all three formerly independent cities. In February 1947 the USA, who had occupied Wesermünde as enclave within the British occupation zone, as they needed a North-Sea harbour for their supplies, decreed that Wesermünde would now be Bremerhaven and belong to Bremen. This is how it is to this day. But... until at least the 70s Bremerhaven housed the governing bodies for the non Bremen county to which Loxstedt belonged (before, during and after the war). So what you have is a document with a city´s name that in this specific constellation lasted only between 1924-1939 (and as a tripolis till 1947). GreyC Edited 18 July , 2017 by GreyC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kimberley John Lindsay Posted 18 July , 2017 Share Posted 18 July , 2017 Dear All, and Julian and GreyC, This is a fascinating case of the Document being more important/interesting than the medal itself! Well done, GreyC... Kindest regards, Kim. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 18 July , 2017 Author Share Posted 18 July , 2017 15 hours ago, robins2 said: re: creases, try a damp cloth with steam iron, do the underside first to ensure the colors do not run/mix Thanks Bob, I'll give it a go... 6 hours ago, GreyC said: ... Reichsbahn-Sekretär Heinrich Friedrich in Loxstedt. ... So what you have is a document with a city´s name that in this specific constellation lasted only between 1924-1939 (and as a tripolis till 1947). 2 hours ago, Kimberley John Lindsay said: ... This is a fascinating case of the Document being more important/interesting than the medal itself! 'Tis indeed, Kim - and thanks GreyC for that background! Also noteworthy is how the Landrat Wesermünde were quick on getting a swastika-decorated ink stamp - 6th September 1935! On an associated note I was somewhat surprised to see in the local 'Antika Pazari' recently some 1947-dated German residency and registration papers that were signed and stamped and so authorised as official but using swastika-embossed ink-stamps... Evidently conditions were such that even local bureaucrats could not yet replace the out-of-date ones. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GreyC Posted 18 July , 2017 Share Posted 18 July , 2017 (edited) Hi Julian, "Evidently conditions were such that even local bureaucrats could not yet replace the out-of-date ones." That is correct. However, rubberstamps were modified by cutting out the swastica. Others were scratched out. I have seen many of these make shift seals, but none with swastica after May 1945. GreyC Edited 18 July , 2017 by GreyC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
depaor01 Posted 14 August , 2017 Share Posted 14 August , 2017 I hope nobody minds my posting this here. Although not a medal, it's an item I picked up on a certain site and I believe would correspond with the British Memorial Plaque. The "Gedenkblatt für die Angehörigen unserer gefallenen Helden" or "Remembrance Certificate for the relatives of our fallen heroes". I think it's quite beautiful. As far as I can gather from German Wikipedia it was designed by graphic artist Emil Doepler. It measures 44 cm x 32 cm and was commissioned on 27 January 1915 by Kaiser Wilhelm II on the occasion of his birthday. One was issued to next of kin of every man killed. Mine commemorates Musketier Christian Kemmerle of 6. Bad. Inf-Regts. "Kaiser Friedrich III." Nr. 114. He fell at Vermelles and Volksbund states he is buried in Lens-Sallaumin but not in a marked grave. If anyone has any further info I'd be very happy to receive it. Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 1 September , 2017 Author Share Posted 1 September , 2017 On 15/08/2017 at 01:48, depaor01 said: I hope nobody minds my posting this here. Although not a medal, it's an item I picked up on a certain site and I believe would correspond with the British Memorial Plaque. The "Gedenkblatt für die Angehörigen unserer gefallenen Helden" or "Remembrance Certificate for the relatives of our fallen heroes". I think it's quite beautiful. It is indeed a very attractive piece - I have not seen anything like it before so thanks for showing it to us all. And interesting to see the man is shown with a 'short' knife-type bayonet, which began to be used by some units in early 1915 Back to medals as such, and so one recently received from a reputable German dealer, one of those non-magnetic EK I Klasse, a bowed version. I understand that there are two differing opinions on these. One, they were made with a brass or similar core for naval use; two, they were made late in the late war period as iron became scarcer. Of the two explanations, the first seems to me to be more likely - but (Kim will, I think, have the answer), I believe there is a German book on these? Whatever, a nice addition to the collection (with another EK II group to be posted anon!) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 2 September , 2017 Author Share Posted 2 September , 2017 And here is the 'new' EKII group I have acquired, with a combatant's Ehrenkreuz, a Kaiser Wilhelm I Zentenarmedaille (1897), and a Dienstauszeichnung 3.Klasse 1913 9 years service medal, the group coming with a 'field ribbon' for all four plus a stick pin as well. Interestingly enough, the Ehrenkreuz ribbon on the medal bar clearly had one of those small 'crossed sword' details pinned there once upon a time, and so yet another example of the wearer wishing to emphasize the combatant status of the award by means of the ribbon display. As the medals are detachable from the bar I do once again wonder if this was to show the status when the ribbon bar was worn on its own... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kimberley John Lindsay Posted 2 September , 2017 Share Posted 2 September , 2017 Dear Julian, Good find, keep it up! I cannot oblige with expertise vis-a-vis the EKI, however. Kindest regards, Kim. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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