trajan Posted 24 May , 2017 Author Share Posted 24 May , 2017 2 minutes ago, Khaki said: ... Some other (later) EK documents are very large and elaborate suitable for framing. ... The one I was looking at is of that kind, but a quick look back at it indicates it was issued by the Archives office in Dresden, and so seems to 'certify' the award rather than be an actual award certificate per se... Entschuldigung sie mir,, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khaki Posted 24 May , 2017 Share Posted 24 May , 2017 I think I have some of the simpler EK documents, I will look for them to post. khaki Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 26 May , 2017 Author Share Posted 26 May , 2017 As some of you will know and others have gathered, I am trying to build up a representative set of German medal groups, and so, here we go with a group bought on my behalf by my archaeologist-cum-dealer friend. An EK II (marked 'G' for Godet & Sohn of Berlin), a Württemberg' "Silberne Militärverdienstmedaille", and an EKFK with swords on the main ribbon (marked 'L/NBG' for Christian Lauer - Nürnberg ). These came with documents relating to a man who served with the FAR 76, otherwise known as the 5. Badisches Feld-Artillerie-Regiment Nr. 76. What with no appropriate reference books to hand, and Wikipedia STILL blocked in Turkey, and no VPN to get around that, I have not been able to discern how a man in a Baden unit qualified for a Württemberg medal (Kim having informed me in a PM that Baden-Württemberg is a 'modern' construct!) - but did the two states field a combined force in WW1? Julian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kimberley John Lindsay Posted 26 May , 2017 Share Posted 26 May , 2017 (edited) Dear Julian, Baden fielded Badische Truppen and Württemberg fielded Württembergische Truppen (Swabians)! They were neighbouring States. There was a Grand-Duke (I think) of Baden, and there was a King of Württemberg. Baden-Württemberg was a post Second War construct, arrived at following a referendum... Kindest regards, Kim. Your EKII, Silver Bravery Medal (showing the King of Württemberg on the obverse), and Hindenburgkreuz with swords, was almost certainly awarded to a Swabian... Edited 26 May , 2017 by Kimberley John Lindsay Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 27 May , 2017 Author Share Posted 27 May , 2017 11 hours ago, Kimberley John Lindsay said: ... Baden fielded Badische Truppen and Württemberg fielded Württembergische Truppen (Swabians)! ... Selbstverständlich! But I was wondering if one of the AK fielded both Baden and Württemberg units... And so to: http://wiki-de.genealogy.net/Militär/Formationsgeschichte/Deutschland/Erster_Weltkrieg/ from which I see that the FAR 76 were with the 29. Division of the XIV AK, essentially a Baden Korps, and at the start of the war the XIV AK was with the 7.Armee which also included the XIV. Reserve-Korps and its 26. Reserve-Division (Kgl. Württemb.). So, a tentative link... But I haven't been able to establish on what grounds the "Silberne Militärverdienstmedaille" was awarded, and/or if the German armies passed medals around the various State contingents, as a 'share' in the honours for some specific action, as it were, rather like the French would send off a few Croix de Guerre to a GB unit which had played a role in some French-dominated spat... Best, Julian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kimberley John Lindsay Posted 27 May , 2017 Share Posted 27 May , 2017 (edited) Dear Julian, I fear that there existed no hard and fast Rules about this. Even looking at Brits who got Croix de Guerre or even St Stanislaus awards: these often had nothing to do with France or Russia, but were in lieu of a british decoration. Someone should write a book about this! Back to the Germans. I knew the father of a friend named Eisele. A Swabian. He was a Dipl.-Ing. (diploma in engineering) pre-war and was a Leutnant der Reserve during 1914-18. Herr Eisele had the EKII, Silberne Militärverdienstmedaille (Württemberg), and EKI (and possibly a Wound-Badge) - common to thousands of Germans in those days. Whenever we met, the first thing he always said was: 'Ich war bei den Preussen!' (I was with the Prussians - i.e., as a Swabian, or Württemberger.) Therefore, he spent his war with the Prussians, and, as a Swabian, got the yellow and black ribboned MVM, in addition to the black and white ribboned EKII. Plus the EKI which was highly coveted, but liberally awarded to Officers. Voila! Kindest regards, Kim. Edited 27 May , 2017 by Kimberley John Lindsay Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kimberley John Lindsay Posted 27 May , 2017 Share Posted 27 May , 2017 Dear Adrian and other GWFs, Here is an interesting one! It just shows that one could manage to be brave (or useful) enough to be awarded a Silver Militärverdienstmedaille (Württemberg), but not quite enough for an Iron Cross. This, despite the fact that the EKII was almost certainly more liberally-awarded than was the "Swabian" silver medal... Kindest regards, Kim. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 29 May , 2017 Author Share Posted 29 May , 2017 While researching an unusual feldspange I have come across I have found what looks to be a reasonably authorative web-site detailing German 'ribbon bars' for the 1914-1945 period: This is at: http://www.wehrmacht-awards.com/related/ribbons/index.htm and it has what looks to be a well-researched section on 'Regulations' - but very annoyingly gives no references... Julian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 29 May , 2017 Author Share Posted 29 May , 2017 One of the things that led me to the site above was trying to work out this Feldspange... Well, thanks to it I understand that this is a 'Model 1915' type, i.e., it is 17 mm high, with ribbons 15 mm wide, mounted on a Feld-grau bar with the DRP mark. I am not quite certain what the second ribbon is - I think it is a Roter Adler Orden Kreuz 4.Klasse but would like confirmation. And note that as there no 'Hindenburg Cross' ribbon, then, as I understand it, this Feldspange dates to before July 1934 or so, when that medal was introduced. Julian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 29 May , 2017 Author Share Posted 29 May , 2017 On 4/20/2017 at 18:23, Khaki said: Two examples. the Kyffhauserbund medal, probably as meant to be worn ... Just for the record - i.e., before I loose it again! - I found this transcript posted by the Stadtgeschichtliches Museum Leipzig of the inscription on these... This is in advance of an anonymous Saxon group that I'll post later and which has one of these. Obverse: "Blank die Wehr Rein die Ehr 1914 -1918" Reverse: (surround) "Für Treue im Weltkrieg - Der Kyffhäuserbund" (Centre) "Aufrecht und Stolz gehen wir aus dem Kampf den wir über vier Jahre gegen eine Welt von Feinden bestanden / Hindenburg". Julian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kimberley John Lindsay Posted 29 May , 2017 Share Posted 29 May , 2017 Dear Julian, Your ribbon bar is EKII and Hanseatenkreuz (Hamburg). Further to ribbon bars. a varied collection (two confirmed: Ltn. d. R. Schneider, at top (2x); and Hptm Reinhard Moessmer, with tag - born 1894, his son Ernst, told me)... Kindest regards, Kim. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 29 May , 2017 Author Share Posted 29 May , 2017 1 hour ago, Kimberley John Lindsay said: ... Your ribbon bar is EKII and Hanseatenkreuz (Hamburg). Dear Kim, Thanks for putting me on to what is probably the right track! There seems to be some duplication with certain German medal ribbon styles / colours from state to state which is certainly confusing when having to rely on the internet sans Wikipedia (currently blocked in Turkey) in place of reference works (haven't yet ordered these for the university library!). For example, I am certain that when doing an internet search for this one I came up with a fire brigade long service award ribbon with the same sequence! Now, if that is a Hanseatenkreuz ribbon, I wonder if this could be a non-combatants award? Even so, the lack of the Ehrenkreuz ribbon still makes it pre-1934. Your little collection of German bars displayed above, and of German medals elsewhere here, though, is impressive, and belays the impression you sometimes give that the German Imperials are a side show to your main collecting habit! Best wishes, Julian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kimberley John Lindsay Posted 29 May , 2017 Share Posted 29 May , 2017 Dear Julian, Your EKII and Hanseatenkreuz (Hamburg) ribbon bar would have been a wartime issue to a combatant. Thanks for your kind words. As far as my collecting is concerned, it mirrored my various stages of matrimony. Young marriage in Germany: first Imperial groups and ribbon bars. Divorce: collection largely dispersed. Marriage (also a German): further Imperial groups. Children: Imperial collection largely neglected and (named) British groups discovered. Children raised: - British officer groups and (successful) research discovered. Children successfully through Universities: British officer groups. Articles published. Imperial German groups re-discovered (but in a minor way). Retired: Great War Forum discovered (enjoyable). Voila! Kindest regards, Kim. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 30 May , 2017 Author Share Posted 30 May , 2017 19 hours ago, Kimberley John Lindsay said: ... Your EKII and Hanseatenkreuz (Hamburg) ribbon bar would have been a wartime issue to a combatant. ... That's good to know! As for the disposing of collections, well, my mum threw all of my first German collection away when I was 15... She was a Quaker and disapproved... But, to other things, namely my 'new' but anonymous Saxon group with a Kyff. medallion. What we have here, as Kim and many others will know, is a Friedrich August Medaille in Bronze (1905), although I am wondering if this is a copper-washed version - I have a chance to check this with an XRF on Monday, inshallah!; then an EK II; then a Dienstauszeichnung, 1874-1913. III Klasse, fur den Soldatenstand nach 9 Dienstjahren Medaille, and finally a Kyffhausebund medallion, with text as above, no. 160. No 'Hindenburger' and so put together ostensibly pre-1934? Julian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martin Feledziak Posted 30 May , 2017 Share Posted 30 May , 2017 (edited) On 2017-5-29 at 15:37, Kimberley John Lindsay said: Dear Julian, Your ribbon bar is EKII and Hanseatenkreuz (Hamburg). Further to ribbon bars. a varied collection (two confirmed: Ltn. d. R. Schneider, at top (2x); and Hptm Reinhard Moessmer, with tag - born 1894, his son Ernst, told me)... Kindest regards, Kim. Is the first ribbon on the 3 item down the below medal ? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karl_Troop_Cross Edited 30 May , 2017 by Martin Feledziak Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kimberley John Lindsay Posted 30 May , 2017 Share Posted 30 May , 2017 Dear Julian, That is a very good, original group, to a Sachse (as you said); probably an Other Rank. Just checking my Nimmergut reference book, it seems as if your (looks silver?) Friedrich-August-Medaille is on a 'Friedensband' (as opposed to a Kriegsband which was yellow and black stripes), which would make it unusual. EKII. Then the Sachsen Dienstauszeichnung (as you said), III Klasse (9 Dienstjahre). Then the Kyffhäuser unofficial medal - which, together with all the other "Kriegs-Verein" awards, was replaced with the 1934 official so-called Hindenburgmedaille (awarded with a certificate). By the way, if you carefully nestle the rings and latch-devices behind the ribbons, and close the ribbons with a little needlework, it will be as original (see the Ltn Schneider EKII group, for example). Kindest regards, Kim. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kimberley John Lindsay Posted 30 May , 2017 Share Posted 30 May , 2017 Dear Martin, Yes. That particular bar was awarded to an Austrian. The first ribbon is as you have so cleverly shown (thanks!). By the way, the second ribbon is missing a Crossed-Swords emblem, which has unfortunately Gone Walkabout... Kindest regards, Kim. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
depaor01 Posted 30 May , 2017 Share Posted 30 May , 2017 Saw this recently for sale I cannot for the life of me identfy the ribbon or if the Wurttemberg medal is correct hanging from it. Would like an opinion. Thanks Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Medaler Posted 30 May , 2017 Share Posted 30 May , 2017 13 minutes ago, depaor01 said: Saw this recently for sale I cannot for the life of me identfy the ribbon or if the Wurttemberg medal is correct hanging from it. Would like an opinion. Thanks Dave A nice eclectic mix Dave.............. 2 x Japanese red cross medals? UN I can't identify Serving Brother St John Ambulance Brigade Can't help with the German medal ribbon mind! Regards, Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GreyC Posted 30 May , 2017 Share Posted 30 May , 2017 (edited) Hi Julian, you mentioning beeing blocked from accessing WIKIPEDIA reminds me of he days with two German States, FRG and GDR. The people of the GDR/DDR liked to watch West-German TV. Because of geographic reasons there was a part of the GDR that couldn´t pick up the West-German TV-signal. This region was called "Tal der Ahnungslosen", Valley of the Clueless". But now back to business: The Hanseatenkreuz was, as you will know, awarded by the Freien Reichsstädte Hamburg, Bremen and Lübeck in slightly different versions. (freie Reichsstädte means that the head of the city was subordinate to the German Kaiser only. Who was eligible to be decorated with the Hanseatenkreuz? Like Baden, Württemberg, Bayern, etc. Hamburg, Bremen and Lübeck had their own (little) independent armies. With their joining the Norddeutsche Bund in 1866 they relinquished their right to sport their own forces around 1867 and agreed to Prussian leadership in war as in peace. To compensate for the loss of military independence Bremen, Hamburg and Lübeck were granted "their own" Infanterie-Regiments: Bremen 2. Oktober 1866 – Infanterie-Regiment Nr. 75 established 7. November 1867 – 1. Hanseatisches Infanterie-Regiment Nr. 75 5. September 1904 (Kaiserparade) – Infanterie-Regiment „Bremen“ (1. Hanseatisches) Nr. 75 Hamburg 30. Oktober 1866 - Infanterie-Regiment Nr. 76 established 7. November 1867 - 2. Hanseatisches Regiment Nr. 76 5. September 1904 - Infanterie-Regiment "Hamburg" (2. Hanseatisches) Nr. 76 Lübeck 1. April 1897 - Infanterie-Regiment 162 5. September 1904 (?) - Infanterie-Regiment "Lübeck" (3. Hanseatisches) Nr. 162 (3rd bataillion in Eutin) Awarded since 1915 all members of these three regiments, which mainly recruited from the cities they were named after (with the exception of the IR1 62), were eligible to get the Hanseatenkreuz. Also former members of these units. In addition the crews of the navy vessels that bore the names of the cities SMS BREMEN; SMS HAMBURG; SMS LÜBECK. Eligible, too, were the citizens of the three cities that served in other units and with liberally managed exceptions, soldiers and more likely officers, that were neither citizens of the Hansestädte nor members of the mentioned regiments (like Manfred v. Richthofen, who had all three Hanseatenkreuze according to WIKIPEDIA). I have an example of a Hamburg Hanseatenkreuz stowed away but might find to post it. GreyC According to WIKIPEDIA: Edited 30 May , 2017 by GreyC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
depaor01 Posted 30 May , 2017 Share Posted 30 May , 2017 1 hour ago, Medaler said: A nice eclectic mix Dave.............. 2 x Japanese red cross medals? UN I can't identify Serving Brother St John Ambulance Brigade Can't help with the German medal ribbon mind! Regards, Mike Ah yes. The danger of the uncropped image. It was the German one I was after. Thanks for the reply anyway! Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kimberley John Lindsay Posted 30 May , 2017 Share Posted 30 May , 2017 Dear Dave, The correct ribbon for the Wuerttemberg Silver Bravery Medal is to be seen, with the medal, at my Post 157. The distinctive yellow with black stripes ribbon can also be observed on two of the Imperial ribbon bars at Post 161. Kindest regards, Kim. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kimberley John Lindsay Posted 30 May , 2017 Share Posted 30 May , 2017 (edited) Dear GreyC, Thanks for your helpful and correct contribution regarding the Hanseatenkreuze. However, it is fair to say that all three different Hanseatenkreuze were distributed far more liberally, beyond the guidelines you so ably set out. For example, look at the picture I posted in this thread, some time earlier, showing a relatively unknown Fliegergeneral - with two Hanseatenkreuze. Furthermore, also in this thread, the distribution of Reserve Artillerie Regiment Nr 66 is shown (first NCOs and Other Ranks, then Officers). There, the number of Hanseatenkreuze awarded is shown to this - I assume - Prussian unit. Perhaps someone has made a study of this? If so, let us know! Kindest regards, Kim. Edited 30 May , 2017 by Kimberley John Lindsay Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
depaor01 Posted 30 May , 2017 Share Posted 30 May , 2017 20 minutes ago, Kimberley John Lindsay said: Dear Dave, The correct ribbon for the Wuerttemberg Silver Bravery Medal is to be seen, with the medal, at my Post 157. The distinctive yellow with black stripes ribbon can also be observed on two of the Imperial ribbon bars at Post 161. Kindest regards, Kim. Thanks for that. I had spotted the ribbons in your posts and remembered seeing one with a different ribbon which is pictured in my post. The reason for my query was I haven't been able to verify if the ribbon in my pic is a variant of the official medal, or if the ribbon belongs to another medal. If the Wuerttemberg was never issued with a red and black ribbon then I'd be interested to know the ID of the ribbon in my pic. Thanks, Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GreyC Posted 30 May , 2017 Share Posted 30 May , 2017 Good evening Kim, thank you for your kind remarks and the nice photos. With regards to your remarks on the liberal distribution of the Hanseatenkreuz: quite right. That´s what I tried to express with "with liberally managed exceptions, soldiers and more likely officers, that were neither citizens of the Hansestädte nor members of the mentioned regiments." The amount of Hanseatenkreuze bestowed upon the RFAR66 is indeed puzzeling. Thank you for pointing that out. They seem not to have had mutual battle experience at first glance. GreyC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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