Partial Casualty Lists

[charlie962]

Brian,

the RGA soldier is Edward Clark 139450 who appears as the subject of this thread where a fair bit of analysis has been done. We believe he was actually wounded c 12/9/17. Other men on the same Daily Casualty List have CasList references like  HA 14009, HA 14059, HA 14076, HA 14114 hence the range I quoted above. Needle in a haystack but .....

 

Thanks

Charlie

[Niall McCoubrie]

On 3/15/2017 at 19:28, brianmorris547 said:

This partial list is difficult to date, 40190 Spr Percy McCoubrey (correct spelling) is named in the Times OCL 18/09/1916 under RE wounded. His service record however is pre war. The service record for 64291 George Lunn shows that he was in hospital in 1918 and at some time had suffered a GSW in the back. He was discharged on 17/09/1918. The service record of 136232 John Dalton shows that he was admitted to hospital on 09/07/1916 serving with 172 TC and was also in hospital in 1918.

Hello Brian

First of all, thank you very much for the information here on Spr. Percy McCoubrie, he was my great grandfather and I've spent many years trying to piece together his life story, so this is most welcome. Percy is still a bit of an enigma, as he disappeared off the radar in 1919 (leaving behind his wife and 9 yo son in Belfast) and was not seen again; we have no record of his death or even if he suffered long-term from his injuries in the great war or was shell-shocked. 

Spelling aside (McCoubrey / McCoubrie are the 2 main variants of the surname, and strangely, he used both throughout his life, finally settling on McCoubrie !), this is a real gem for me, as it opens up his WW1 service details, which I'd previously failed to locate. I have his medal roll details, but until now that was it, as contacting the Archives at Kew I'd discovered his WW1 service record and pension details were both lost in the blitz fires.

 

I have plenty of details around his pre-war service in the Royal Engineers from 1900 - 1912, where he spent several years in Gibralter, but nothing from 1914-18 and very little after 1918. He is mentioned on a church memorial plaque near to his home town in Co. Down as "Sgt. P McCoubrie RE - served in the great war", but again I have no way of telling if this is correct or not.

 

I shall now be able to look up the field diaries for RE 14/61 and try and track the activities of his company that way. I live down in Kent now, so may make a trip to the RE museum in Chatham too. 

http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C7352710

https://www.reubique.com/61fc.htm

 

I have a few questions if you don't mind, any information is very greatly received :

 

 - do you have the other half of this image, which might detail more information on the nature of his injuries and where he was hospitalised ?

 - do you know of any other resource (Times online or Hospital war records ?) which may help me follow up on this ?

 - if his details were reported in the Times on 18.09.16, presumably he was injured just prior to this and we can use this date against the activities of the 61st Field Co ? (they were at the battle of Flers-Courcelette from 11-22 Sept 1916, so am thinking he was injured during the 3rd phase of the Battle of the Somme)

 - am presuming that without his actual service record, there is no way to track his movement during the war and see if he changed division/company ?

 - is there any way of telling if he came back into service during the war ? ( I suspect they may not have been too severe, as he is recorded as a 'labourer' working in Belfast in 1919, but don't really know) 

 - were there any special payments or a pension for wounded personell over and above the normal soldiers arrangements ?

 

My thanks again for publishing this and all your background work.

 

Kind regards

Niall McCoubrie

[brianmorris547]

Niall

Glad the list could help. I initially did a FMP check on his service number on 14/03/2017 as he appeared in the Times OCL 18/09/1916 under RE wounded (as McCoubrey). The December 1915 War Diary of the Commander Royal Engineers,14 Div has Nominal Rolls for all the Field Companies and the Signals Co. 40190 McCoubrie P is named on the NR for 61 FC (and I checked the number again on 16/11/2017). His 1914-15 date 20/05/1915 is consistent with 61 FC who embarked on that date at Southampton and arrived at Havre the following day. I checked his pre war service record again under Percy McCoubrie 6399 Royal Engineers. This shows that he married Mary Patterson in 1908, check to see if it is your man.

You will need to book Chatham by appointment. It is some years since I was there.

No other half of the document is available unfortunately.

I will check FMP tomorrow to see if he is shown in a Hospital Admissions Book (MH/106).

You need to go back 4 to 6 weeks from the date of the OCL but I did not see his name in the WD of 61 FC. (I have not checked 1917 onwards).

If he was admitted to hospital for his wound it is possible that he may have been discharged to Base Details (No 4 General Base Depot, Rouen), and he could have then been sent to whichever Unit needed Reinforcements. He is shown as being discharged to the Z Reserve in 1919 so his wound would not have been serious and he may have rejoined his Unit after only a short time. Being discharged to the Z Reserve I do not think that he would have been entitled to a Pension. The Z Reserve would have been the first to rejoin the Colours had the Armistice collapsed.

Brian

[brianmorris547]

18 hours ago, charlie962 said:

Brian,

the RGA soldier is Edward Clark 139450 who appears as the subject of this thread where a fair bit of analysis has been done. We believe he was actually wounded c 12/9/17. Other men on the same Daily Casualty List have CasList references like  HA 14009, HA 14059, HA 14076, HA 14114 hence the range I quoted above. Needle in a haystack but .....

 

Thanks

Charlie

Charlie

I have checked all my lists, in particular the ones too faint to post, and no trace of 139450 (A) E Clarke RGA. An interesting two threads about the gentleman. I will check FMP at the Library tomorrow to see if he is named in a Hospital Admissions Book (MH/106). I also checked on the main Casualty List Thread for the first 20 pages but could not see him on there either. You may wish to double check or see if Diane (Bardess) might have listed him. It was SteveE who found the lists in the SWB Rolls and Stiletto-33853 the lists in Service Records. I found some more lists in SWB Rolls at Kew and Diane posted them for me on p 19. I started to post my lists on 01/06/2016 on p 21. 

Brian

[charlie962]

1 minute ago, brianmorris547 said:

I have checked all my lists,

Thats very kind of you and always a bit dispointing not to get the desired result. I have tried FMP, FWR  etc with no luck other than has already appeared on the thread. But the research itself is v interesting.

Charlie

[brianmorris547]

Charlie

The lists you quoted above HA 14009, 14059, 14076 and 14114. I presume you got them by checking the service numbers of the RGA OCL (on which 139450 is named) on FMP. I will pull them to see if there are any RE mentioned.

Brian

[charlie962]

19 minutes ago, brianmorris547 said:

lists you quoted above HA 14009, 14059, 14076 and 14114.

I got those references from the individual service files, the page that gives a correspondence summary or perhaps the service summary. I did not find any of the actual lists I'm afraid. I was hoping you had them !!

[Niall McCoubrie]

On 17/01/2018 at 13:44, brianmorris547 said:

Niall

Glad the list could help. I initially did a FMP check on his service number on 14/03/2017 as he appeared in the Times OCL 18/09/1916 under RE wounded (as McCoubrey). The December 1915 War Diary of the Commander Royal Engineers,14 Div has Nominal Rolls for all the Field Companies and the Signals Co. 40190 McCoubrie P is named on the NR for 61 FC (and I checked the number again on 16/11/2017). His 1914-15 date 20/05/1915 is consistent with 61 FC who embarked on that date at Southampton and arrived at Havre the following day. I checked his pre war service record again under Percy McCoubrie 6399 Royal Engineers. This shows that he married Mary Patterson in 1908, check to see if it is your man.

You will need to book Chatham by appointment. It is some years since I was there.

No other half of the document is available unfortunately.

I will check FMP tomorrow to see if he is shown in a Hospital Admissions Book (MH/106).

You need to go back 4 to 6 weeks from the date of the OCL but I did not see his name in the WD of 61 FC. (I have not checked 1917 onwards).

If he was admitted to hospital for his wound it is possible that he may have been discharged to Base Details (No 4 General Base Depot, Rouen), and he could have then been sent to whichever Unit needed Reinforcements. He is shown as being discharged to the Z Reserve in 1919 so his wound would not have been serious and he may have rejoined his Unit after only a short time. Being discharged to the Z Reserve I do not think that he would have been entitled to a Pension. The Z Reserve would have been the first to rejoin the Colours had the Armistice collapsed.

Brian

Brian

Thanks again for all your work and checking. If he does turn up in any hospital admissions book, I'd be very pleased to hear back.

Yes, he did marry Mary in 1908 in Belfast and my grandfather was born in 1910. As I mentioned before, we have no trace of him after 1919 and no idea where he ended up. But every bit of information helps, and this been a real nugget of a find.

I've just downloaded a copy of the RE field diaries today and am slowly working my way through 1915 and 16. The only mentioned of any casualties in the 6 weeks before the date of Percy's appearance on the OCL of 18/09/16 was on 15th September (attached), when there were 3 killed and 9 wounded due to an exploding grenade. So this could possibly be it, but then on your page/list there are no there others reported from the 14th Div/61st Field Co at the same time ? Anyway. I'll keep looking and see what I can find out.

 

Kind regards

Niall 

[brianmorris547]

Niall

These Casualty Lists do contain a lot of mistakes but in your case we have corroboration with his name being on the Nominal Roll in the 14 Div CRE WD.

He could not have been wounded on 15/09 and appear in the Times OCL on 18/09. I think it is much more likely that he was wounded in the Operations on 18/08/1916 near Delville Wood. The 61 FC WD for that date makes a brief mention and that one Officer was wounded. It also says Report Attached. This hand written report by Major Lees precedes the August WD. There is no mention of casualties but the WD of 14 Div CRE mentions that 7 men of 61 FC were wounded. The CRE WD has the report and also maps and map references of the strong points etc that the Company was working on. I did not find his name in the Hospital Admissions Books that have recently become available on FMP. There may be more info about 18/08/1916 in the WDs of the 14 Div HQ and the individual Infantry Brigades, I will have a look later.

EDIT: 61 FC were attached to 43 Infantry Brigade for the Operation on 18/08/1916. When the Infantry had taken their objectives 61 FC and the Div Pioneer Bn (11 Kings Liverpool) were to consolidate the trenches and work on erecting strongpoints (see WD CRE 14 Div for details and locations). 43 IB Operational Order 54 also refers to the work of the RE and Pioneers. Nothing further from the WD of 11 Kings Liverpool but WD of 14 Div HQ has good overall coverage.

EDIT no 2. 22/01/2018: I have just gone through the RE Wounded in The Times OCL 18/09/1916. Among those named is 36514 Spr G Harman. His Service Record shows that he was admitted to hospital in Manchester on 23/08/1916 where he had his eye removed. His admission records show that he was wounded on 18/08/1916 at Delville Wood serving with 61 FC. Not conclusive proof that your man was wounded on the same day but it looks favourite. 36514 G Harman is also named on the Nominal Roll for 61 FC in the December 1915 WD of the 14 Div CRE.

EDIT no 3. 24/01/2018. The entry for 18/08/1916 in the WD of 14 Div CRE records that 61 FC had 7 wounded. The handwritten report by Major Lees, OC 61 FC, records that, "The casualties were very slight, only about 10% of the RE employed". When I researched 20 Div RE wounded at Guillemont on 03 and 04/09/1916 I only found them in the Times OCL 11/10/1916. (see post 151 top of page 7). So if my theory is correct all of the 61 FC wounded on 18/08/1916 should be on the same list i.e.18/09/1916. I found 9 names that appear on both the 18/09/1916 OCL and the 61 FC Nominal Roll in the WD of 14 Div CRE:

42118 Armstrong G F (T on OCL correct name Thomas), 45848 Bolton G (W on OCL but correct name is George), 49235 Bradshaw W, 36514 Harman G, 89891 Hoare J, 40190 McCoubrey P, 59387 Partridge J, 42008 Rowe S, and 40888 Wilson J. Unfortunately I could not find any service or pension records to confirm when they were wounded but it must have been 18/08/1916 since that was the only action that the FC was involved in.

Brian

Edited 20 March , 2018 by brianmorris547
typo

[brianmorris547]

This partial list dates to December 1916. The Service Record of 1155 Spr W H (not A) Hockin shows that he joined 1/1 Devon FC from England on 27/11/1915. He was with the ADW Rouen and CRE Dieppe when he was admitted to hospital on 08/12/1916. He was discharged from 5 SH Dieppe on 12/12/1916. The Service Record of 107035 Pnr C Barthorp shows that he joined 61 FC from Base on 12/09/1916 ex 282 A T Co RE. He was admitted to hospital in September and on 03/12/1916.

[Niall McCoubrie]

On 1/21/2018 at 09:32, brianmorris547 said:

Niall

These Casualty Lists do contain a lot of mistakes but in your case we have corroboration with his name being on the Nominal Roll in the 14 Div CRE WD.

He could not have been wounded on 15/09 and appear in the Times OCL on 18/09. I think it is much more likely that he was wounded in the Operations on 18/08/1916 near Delville Wood. The 61 FC WD for that date makes a brief mention and that one Officer was wounded. It also says Report Attached. This hand written report by Major Lees precedes the August WD. There is no mention of casualties but the WD of 14 Div CRE mentions that 7 men of 61 FC were wounded. The CRE WD has the report and also maps and map references of the strong points etc that the Company was working on. I did not find his name in the Hospital Admissions Books that have recently become available on FMP. There may be more info about 18/08/1916 in the WDs of the 14 Div HQ and the individual Infantry Brigades, I will have a look later.

EDIT: 61 FC were attached to 43 Infantry Brigade for the Operation on 18/08/1916. When the Infantry had taken their objectives 61 FC and the Div Pioneer Bn (11 Kings Liverpool) were to consolidate the trenches and work on erecting stronpoints (see WD CRE 14 Div for details and locations). 43 IB Operational Order 54 also refers to the work of the RE and Pioneers. Nothing further from the WD of 11 Kings Liverpool but WD of 14 Div HQ has good overall coverage.

EDIT no 2. 22/01/2018: I have just gone through the RE Wounded in The Times OCL 18/09/1916. Among those named is 36514 Spr G Harman. His Service Record shows that he was admitted to hospital in Manchester on 23/08/1916 where he had his eye removed. His admission records show that he was wounded on 18/08/1916 at Delville Wood serving with 61 FC. Not conclusive proof that your man was wounded on the same day but it looks favourite. 36514 G Harman is also named on the Nominal Roll for 61 FC in the December 1915 WD of the 14 Div CRE.

EDIT no 3. 24/01/2018. The entry for 18/08/1916 in the WD of 14 Div CRE records that 61 FC had 7 wounded. The handwritten report by Major Lees, OC 61 FC, records that, "The casualties were very slight, only about 10% of the RE employed". When I researched 20 Div RE wounded at Guillemont on 03 and 04/09/1916 I only found them in the Times OCL 11/10/1916. (see post 151 top of page 7). So if my theory is correct all of the 61 FC wounded on 18/08/1916 should be on the same list i.e.18/09/1916. I found 9 names that appear on both the 18/09/1916 OCL and the 61 FC Nominal Roll in the WD of 14 Div CRE:

42118 Armstrong G F (T on OCL correct name Thomas), 45848 Bolton G (W on OCL but correct name is George), 49235 Bradshaw W, 36514 Harman G, 89891 Hoare J, 40190 McCoubrey P, 59387 Partridge J, 42008 Rowe S, and 40888 Wilson J. Unfortunately I could not find any service or pension records to confirm when they were wounded but it must have been 18/08/1916 since that was the only action that the FC was involved in.

Brian

Hi Brian

Many thanks again for your comprehensive research here, you have probably save me 6 months of effort , so I really am most grateful.

From your findings, I would agree that your theory is most probably correct and McCoubrie, P's wounds date from 18/08/1916 at Delville Wood. Reading reports of that particular phase of the battle, there was a huge amount of shelling and artillery raining down from the German side, so it's highly likley that during the work to 'consolidate the trenches and erect strongpoints' he was caught up in all that and injured.

On the bright side, Longueval and Delville Wood is reachable in a day for me, so if I can work out the positions / locations from the 14 Div diaries, I'll take a trip over there to the exact spot. 

All the very best and thank you once again.

Regards, Niall

[H Hocking]

Hi Brian

If you still have access to Sick and wounded could you please advise if you have anything on Royal Engineers Sapper George Parfoot (my grandfather) WR 273859 and his friend Ben Atkins both Railways, both survived WW1 but I am having trouble finding any Service detail.

 

[brianmorris547]

H

Neither appear on my RE index but Ben Atkins from Coventry has a service record under his original number 5601 Royal Warwickshire Regt. He attested on 11/12/1915, was mobilized on 07/06/1916 and was posted to various Bns of the RWs. He transferred to 54 Light Railway Operating Co on 20/06/1917 with RE number 343395 and was later a Brakeman with 232 LROC RE with number WR/175842 (and later WR/282711) in 1918.

Brian

[brianmorris547]

One for Terry

The two Special Brigade men on this partial list 146429 Albert Ernest Simmonds, wounded 20/04/1917 and 159514 Clement Cecil Clay. Pte Elliott injured 21/04/1917.

Edited 13 March , 2022 by brianmorris547
additional info

[brianmorris547]

This partial list required a bit of research. Luckily the names were not common and therefore easy to find. They have gone on to my RE Index as:

130548 James H Keeble, 130615 John Mycock, 129316 Charles Wharton (not Warton), 192851 Peter S Stoddard, 192504 John Fife, 156654 John Backhouse, 192511 William Grainger, 197226 Thomas A Rigley, 143015 William Callan, Possible 128248 Harrison Gowdy (later Labour Corps 632757), 129515 Ralph Creighton and 130414 Thomas Spruce.

Pnrs Wharton, Stoddart and Creighton were all gassed on 05/10/1916. 

All are Special Brigade men.

Edited 13 March , 2022 by brianmorris547
additional info

[H Hocking]

Hi Brian, Thank you very much for your information. I appreciate your time. 

 

Attached is a photo of Left- possibly Ben Atkins, Middle ??, Right George Parfoot

I think the cap badge on Ben and George are R.E. but I don't know about the middle guy.

 

 

Regards Heather

 

[brianmorris547]

8 hours ago, H Hocking said:

I think the cap badge on Ben and George are R.E. but I don't know about the middle guy.

Heather

Possibly Middlesex Regt but I don't know what the collar dogs are. 

Just had a look at Ben Atkins Service Record again. The WD for 232 Light Railway Operating Company can be obtained from TNA (WO 95/4046/3). There is no WD for 54 LROC so that Unit may not have served abroad.

Brian

Edited 18 March , 2018 by brianmorris547
additional info

[Pat Atkins]

I think they're Pioneer collar dogs. The Middlesex's 18th, 19th and 26th Battalions were Pioneers for the 33rd, 41st and 27th Divisions respectively.

 

Cheers, Pat

[brianmorris547]

Thanks Pat

Brian

[Terry_Reeves]

On 13/03/2018 at 19:23, brianmorris547 said:

This partial list required a bit of research. Luckily the names were not common and therefore easy to find. They have gone on to my RE Index as:

130548 James H Keeble, 130615 John Mycock, 129316 Charles Wharton (not Warton), 192851 Peter S Stoddard, 192504 John Fife, 156654 John Backhouse, 192511 William Grainger, 197226 Thomas A Rigley, 143015 William Callan, Possible 128248 Harrison Gowdy (later Labour Corps 632757), 129515 Ralph Creighton and 130414 Thomas Spruce.

Pnrs Stoddart, Rigley and Creighton have service records Pnr Creighton was wounded and gassed on 05/10/1916 and admitted the following day. His Unit was 3 Special Bn. The other records are more difficult to read but the list could relate to 1917or 1918. 

All are Special Brigade men.

Brian

 

Thanks for this and the list of 8th March. Much appreciated.

 

TR

Edited 18 March , 2018 by Terry_Reeves

[brianmorris547]

This partial list dates to December 1916. The Service Record of 115813 Pnr John Gerrard shows that he served in France 25/08/1915 to 31/12/1916 and his debility started in December 1916.

[brianmorris547]

69921 John Lanchester and 69922 Joseph Lanchester enlisted into the RE on 19/03/1915 at Wood Green, North London. Both have interesting Service Records. It was 69921 John who was gassed on 23/07/1917 serving with 152 FC.

[brianmorris547]

This partial list dates to August 1916 and is from Egypt/Salonika.

The Service Record of 65263 QMS Frank C Catherwood records that he was admitted to hospital on 26/08/1916. Sappers Harris, Ogston, Stuart and Dvr Grant also have Service Records but all are difficult to read.

Edited 13 March , 2022 by brianmorris547
additional info

[brianmorris547]

EDIT: Dates to July 1917.

 

Edited 13 March , 2022 by brianmorris547
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[brianmorris547]

These 1916 lists crop up occasionally. I have pages from C/793, C/795, C/896 and C/899. They seem to have been compiled from reports by the OC of the Units. This partial list is not numbered.

EDIT: Also posted by Charlie 962 on Casualty Lists p 23.

Edited 13 March , 2022 by brianmorris547
additional info