Partial Casualty Lists

[brianmorris547]

For some time now I have been researching the RE wounded of 20 Div at Guillemont on 03 to 05/09/1916. I have the Field Service Post Card from my grandfather dated 05/09/1916 to notify that he was wounded and in hospital. He is named in the Times OCL 11/10/1916 under RE wounded. Having gone through all the Divisional WDs on Ancestry and the Army Troops Cos at Kew I feel that, on the balance of probabilities, he was wounded serving with 20 Div who had the most RE casualties in that period. There are conflicting totals given in the WDs of 83, 84 and 96 FCs and the 20 Div CRE with the WDs of the 20 Div A&QMG (WO 95/2099) and the account of operations in the WD of 20 Div General Staff (WO 95/2095) where the total is given as 42 wounded. At the end of the WD of the CRE there is a brief history of each FC and casualties and honours are named. The account of 84 FC also names the wounded and shows the date. I attach the relevant page. 44645 Cpl Stevenson, 45339 Cpl Vernon and 61887 L/Cpl Flegg who were wounded at the end of August are named in the Times OCL 02/10/1916 (Second List) under RE wounded. The 13 O/Rs wounded on 03, 04 and 05/09/1916 are all named in the Times OCL 11/10/1916 with the exception of 59345 Spr Bosher who is named in the Times OCL 04/11/1916. I have been through the Times OCLs from 02/10/1916 to 14/10/1916 looking for Service or Pension records and disembarkation dates of 22 to 25/07/1915 and the only date on which I found them was on 11/10/1916. In addition to the 12 from 84 FC I found 8 records for men in 96 FC and 2 from 83 FC. One more was wounded on 04/09 but no Unit was shown. I found 14 other names who had disembarkation dates compatible with 20 Div. I am persuaded therefore that the RE wounded for 20 Div at Guillemont were shown on this list. I started a thread on my gf which is linked to my more recent thread on 30 Division County Palatine RE in U&F. 

 

 

[brianmorris547]

In searching for these casualty lists that I have been posting here and on the main Casualty Lists thread in Other Grear War Chat Forum one of my priorities was to look for 20 Div RE wounded for Guillemont in September 1916. I have only found three lists for September 1916 which I posted on to the main thread. Five wounded Sappers from 20 Div are named on them.

List HA 2336 (post 521) names 47161 Spr Phillips C, 83 FC, gsw adm 11 Sty H Rouen 05/09/1916 and 44831 2/Cpl Croally T, 84 FC, To England ex 11 Sty H 05/09/1916. Both men are named in the Times OCL 11/10/1916. Thomas Croally has a service record, his A F B.103 shows that on 07/09/1916 he was admitted to the Beaufort War Hospital (Bristol). He is also named on the list in the previous post.

List H A 2739 (post 518) names 48683 2/Cpl Andrews F, 96 FC, gsw, and 94674 Spr Delaney J, 96 FC, sw. Both discharged to Base Details ex 3 Conv Dep Le Treport 22/09/1916. Both named in the Times OCL 11/10/1916.

List H A 2728 (post 519) names 45799 Spr Fisher G, 96 FC, gsw L leg amp , Trans to Havre for H S ex 2 Sty H 22/09/1916. He is also named in the Times OCL 11/10/1916.

To say that I am disappointed to have only found three is putting it mildly.

 

EDIT: This partial list dates to December 1916/January 1917. 80995 Dvr Batty A is named in an Establishment Table appended to the December 1916 WD of 130 FC. He was sent to hospital on 23/12/1916. 1979 Gnr Tate P G has a service record which shows that he joined 161 (S) Battery on 17/06/1916 and in January 1917 was in hospital with Cerebro Spinal Fever. 

Edited 13 March , 2022 by brianmorris547
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[brianmorris547]

EDIT: Dates to November 1917. 81760 Spr Thomas Lawson was an original County Palatine RE man (30 Div). He was wounded twice in 1916 and was named in the Times OCLs 04/02/1916 and 13/05/1916 under RE wounded. His service record shows that he was joined 2 Pontoon Park on 27/11/1917 and I.W.T. on 17/01/1918. He was renumbered WR 510016. 

Spr Cameron was removed to England on 10/12/1917. Spr Kenyon and Pnr Millard were admitted to hospital on 27/11/1917. 

EDIT: 92939 T Eastwood RGA was wounded on 29/11/1917 and died of wounds in December. 138306 A McLean was wounded on 27/11/1917 and invalided to Enland in December. 

Edited 11 October , 2022 by brianmorris547
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[brianmorris547]

Finding very few now that I have not already posted, but here is a partial that dates to December 1916. The Service Record of 151813 Spr Herbert Green records that he arrived in Basrah on 10/10/1916 and was transferred to 3 D S C on 21/10/1916. He was admitted to 32 BGH with malaria on 03/12/1916. His record shows that he was serving with 3 Indian Div Sigs Co not 3 Div Sigs Co which confused me at first.

 

[brianmorris547]

EDIT: Dates to October 1916. The service record of 115831 Albert Freeman shows that he was admitted to hospital on 04/10/1916. 

 

[brianmorris547]

This partial list dates to December 1916. 69740 Spr Catchpole and 65522 Gnr King have service records that show they were admitted in early December. Spr Catchpole appears on List HA 5006 that I posted on Casualty Lists (post 812) earlier this week.

[brianmorris547]

EDIT: Dates to October 1916. Pnr Laverton adm to hospital 29/10/1916 and to England 10/11/1916. Hospital Admission in MH 106/847 for S Hughes, 168 TMB 21/10/1916.

Edited 13 March , 2022 by brianmorris547
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[charlie962]

3 hours ago, brianmorris547 said:

struggling to date this partial list

Sgt Buckley is 395754. He has an SWB with a discharge date of 2/7/17 so that gives us an end date ?

Charlie

[brianmorris547]

Thanks Charlie

I was checking on numbers only.

Brian

[Terry_Reeves]

In fact both his numbers are correct. The RARE (SR) along with the RMRE (SR) had a number change. Instead of issuing a brand new group of numbers the former had  39 added and the latter 38

 

TR

 

 

[charlie962]

So that confirms that it is pre renumbering.

 

Laverton has a Service record . He was trfd to Labour Corps 31/7/17 and had number 292773;

 

In the record there is an entry for what looks like a hospital in Lancashire?

Admitted Hosp 11/11/16, Disch 24/11/16.  PUO  (notes) has had scabies. Nov 20th 1916. recovered from scabies. Nothing else wrong.

 

   

 

Is the casualty sheet you have shown possibly a UK sheet?

 

Charlie

 

 

[brianmorris547]

Terry

I have noticed the 38 and 39 additions before thanks for the clarification. Anyway, today's partial list can be dated to December 1916. The Service Records of 93787 George Benjamin Hall, 119525 James Burns and 176009 John Ellis show hospital admissions in that month. 

Edited 13 March , 2022 by brianmorris547
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[brianmorris547]

This list appears to be Sappers who were either sick or wounded in 1916 and who were transferred to the Commander Royal Engineers, Dieppe. The Service Records of four of them show that they went on to serve in Artizan Works Companies RE.

69561 George Taylor (s), 65158 Albert Cobb (w - 11/07/1916 Shell shock), 104532 Albert Griffiths (w - 15/09/1916 gsw hand) and 69846 Walter Frederick Bond (s).

[Terry_Reeves]

Brian, thanks again.

 

TR

[kildaremark]

Royal engineers casualties - 35th Division August 1916. Now why can't some of the other war diaries do that for us!!

Mark

the second page....

 

 

Edited 3 December , 2017 by kildaremark

[kildaremark]

Never saw one of these before...

[brianmorris547]

Mark

Thanks for these. I have noted that the WD for the CRE 35 Div (and 203 and 204 FCs) names names when I went through all the 1916 RE WDs for F&F some time ago. I am now going through them all again to make sure that I have not missed my gf and to put the names on to my RE index. I am on 14 Div CRE at the moment, the December 1915 WD has nominal rolls attached. I also posted one of those movement orders from CRE 35 Div on to the thread I started about No 4 General Base Depot.

There was no need to name O/Rs in the WDs since every Unit had to submit a weekly Field Return showing all comings and goings for whatever reason. Only a few survive unfortunately. I did get exited about those movement orders though but I could not find any more in the boxes at Kew that held the records of the Lines of Communication, Rouen.

Brian

 

[brianmorris547]

EDIT: Dates to July 1916. The service record of James Henry Hewing records that he was admitted to hospital on 16/03/1916 and again on 17/07/1916. The service record of 1805 Gnr James Hembling records that he was admitted to hospital on 14/07/1916 with pyrexia.

Edited 13 March , 2022 by brianmorris547
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[brianmorris547]

60122 (S for Stanley) Anscombe is named in the December 1915 WD of 14 Div CRE in a Nominal Roll for the Signals Company. His service record shows that on 04/10/1916 he was sent to England from 4 G H. On 11/11/1916 he was transferred to Haynes Park where he later qualified as a Field Telegraphist. On 02/03/1917 he arrived back in France with BZ Cable Company. Two others on the list 113965 P Hoyles and 70218 S Harris also became Field Telegraphists.

[brianmorris547]

This partial list dates to September 1916 Mesopotamia.

Service Records for 34769 William Kinchin (MEF 24/11/1915 and discharged on 08/01/1917), 77188 Charles Rockey (adm hospital Basrah with dysentry 10/09/1916) and 79824 Bdr George Cliff (invalided to India from Basrah 13/09/1916). 

[brianmorris547]

Last one this year.

This list dates to August 1917. 

EDIT The full list HB 7706 is on the main Casualty Lists thread p 35, thanks to Dink 999.

Edited 13 March , 2022 by brianmorris547
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[brianmorris547]

This partial list dates to February 1917.

The Pension Record of 199330 Dvr W D Bourne shows that he was admitted to hospital on 01/02/1917 from 3 Base Park. 

175881 Spr E Field is named on List HA 7013 (Casualty Lists post 703) which confirms that he was 172 TC and had myalgia. It records that he was discharged to Base Details ex 3 Con Dep, Le Treport on 21/03/1917.

Edited 13 March , 2022 by brianmorris547
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[brianmorris547]

EDIT: The Service Records of RE 73459 Frank Walter Surry and RE 66158 John Whitlie show that they were each admitted to St Patricks Hospital, Malta in October 1916 from Salonica. 

Edited 13 March , 2022 by brianmorris547
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[charlie962]

Brian,

Your extensive search for those random surviving casualty lists raises the question of whether you have a list of those you've found and can make sense of the reference numbers. Your RE lists often start with an RGA section. I have been following another thread where the OP is searching for an RGA gunner wounded mid Sept 1917. I have a feeling that his name may appear on a list numbered in the series HA 14001- 14080. Does this mean anything to you? Its outside your normal 1916 date-range I suspect but you may be able to point out where to look. I have already searched for the man on FMP so it isn't on the papers that FMP have already indexed. How many more exist that are not indexed do you think, and where are they?

 

Have all the sheets you've posted on this thread been indexed by FMP or is it worth the RGA searcher scrolling through this thread do you think?

Thanks

Charlie

[brianmorris547]

Charlie

The problem that I have is that although FMP has indexed all the names found on these Casualty lists, partial casualty lists and any other names on what has been described as Floating Documents (that appear at random in Service and Pension Recods) it has not catalogued the lists as far as I am aware. This means that I have no way of knowing how many there are. I have a schedule of all the H, HA, HB, HC and HD lists that I have posted in list date order and a schedule of all partail lists under the first two surnames on the RE men. I have only indexed the RE names. I was hoping that someone with an interest in the Artillery might be indexing RGA/RFA names. Have you tried Forum Member Bardess, Diane was indexing all names on the early lists but I do not know if she is still doing this.

I have found some names on faint lists that FMP has not indexed. The only HA 14--- list on the main thread is HA 14466 dated September 1917 which Forum Member Sfayers1 posted on 24/05/2017 (post 787).

The first lists on the main thread were found in a SWB Roll (WO 329/3035) and, taking this as my cue, I found some others in other SWB Rolls which I posted. As far as I know the names on the lists found in the SWB Rolls have not been indexed by FMP.

I also have some lists that were too faint to post perhaps you could pm me with details of the man you are looking for and I will go through them and also check the SWB ones.

Brian