Last ditch effort RGA

[Deb R]

Hello all, 

 

following a suggestion to post my questions here as I try to solve a bit of a family mystery.  I've had tremendous help on a different forum and there's possibly nothing more to be found.

 

I started out just trying to learn a bit more about what my great grandfather may have experienced during World War One.  My uncle had tried with not much success some years ago but was told Teds records were part of the burnt collection.  He did have one record that he believed was his and from that I've since found more.   

 

Problem being Ted was with RGA and therefor very hard to trace where he might have been. His last remaining son and my dad and my uncle have all told me the same story that Ted was a gunner and was on the big guns when they were shelled he was injured in the thigh and he was the only survivor.  I've no idea how many men man a big gun?  He was left for dead by a passing unit but was seen to move by either same unit or a different one possibly same day but not sure anyway he was rescued.  

 

Theory then is from other forum he may have then been sent to Clyde as that being in Scotland was quieter and then transferred to labour corps perhaps due to his injury? 

 

So I'm ok to just leave that there as it doesn't seem possible to find what Gloucestershire regiment he may have started with prior to RGA.  I paid a 25 pound donation to Gloucestershire soldiers but they can't help me either.  As they could only go by his RGA number. 

 

I also thought by sharing the family photo that graced the lounge rooms of his children might have given some clues only I wasn't prepared for the puzzle that raised.  I even took the photo to his last remaining son now in his 80's and asked him who the photo was of and he said oh that's dad.  However the photo is of a man in Boer War uniform, which then I noticed Teds age on records supplied by uncle are 1883, which suggests when ever Ted originally enlisted he's lied about his age as he was born in 1885.  There was no need to lie by the time WW1 broke out so it made no sense unless he did go off to the Boer war as a boy soldier?  The man in the photo despite the mustach is not very old.  I know boy soldiers existed as Teds wife Daisy's grandfather enlisted at 14 and 6 months but we have his records.

 

Ted was born Albert Edward Clark illegitimate son of Amelia Clark he also had a younger sister that died in 1898.  He went by Albert in the first census but seems at some point changed to Edward and then known as Ted to the family.  His marriage record has an e added to Clark sometimes that complicates things as I have to look check both spellings in order to find him. 

 

I know the man in the photo going by his uniform would habe been with the regiment for at least two years and had a good conduct badge and was a rifleman.  

 

The family are positive it's Ted perhaps I will never be able to prove it.

 

But I would like to try and find out what his original Gloucestershire regiment might have been and where he may have been sent in WW1? 

 

I even wondereded what the form numbers meant on one of the documents which is how I was directed back here.

 

Blessings 

Deb 

 

 

[Deb R]

I was also given this information as a possibility but going by the regiment number he woukd have been very young, haven't ruled it our entirely as yet.

 

The medal roll for the 2nd Batt Gloucestershire regt. has an A E Clarke, regt no 2976, entitled to a three clasp QSA medal (Cape Colony, Orange Free State and Trans.) together with the King's SA Medal with SA01 & 02 clasps, this could be your man. If you have access to Find my Past it might be worth checking, using the above details, to see if this man's record has survived and confirm/rule him out as your ancestor.

[Mark1959]

Can you say where he came from. Where born, lived etc.

[RaySearching]

4 hours ago, Mark1959 said:

Can you say where he came from. Where born, lived etc.

 

See Previous Thread Here

[petwes]

Could I suggest a search through casualty records might return something if the story of his wounding is correct (I think "The Genealogist" website has them but the subscription isn't cheap for a single search).  If you find a match for his service number he was probably wounded about 4 weeks before the date on the report.  I would then look for RGA deaths recorded on the CWGC site about this time and look for a block of men died on the same day from one battery to match the other part of the story.

 

Peter

Edited 13 January , 2018 by petwes

[ss002d6252]

Casualty list published 23 Oct 17 under his RGA number.
 

 

Craig

Edited 13 January , 2018 by ss002d6252

[ss002d6252]

See also -

Craig

[Deb R]

Oh my goodness that's him ... so perhaps the story told by his son of his wounding is correct?  

 

Is there any way of knowing where this may have happened? 

 

Blessings

Deb 

[Deb R]

I think we can rule out the A E Clark 2976 as it's looking like he was born in Poplar.  Ted was from Stroud Gloucestershire.

 

blessings

Deb 

Edited 13 January , 2018 by Deb R

[Deb R]

Teds Birth 

[petwes]

23 minutes ago, Deb R said:

Oh my goodness that's him ... so perhaps the story told by his son of his wounding is correct?  

 

Is there any way of knowing where this may have happened? 

 

Blessings

Deb 

In my opinion the highest probability would be Belgium during 3rd Battle of Ypres.  I look for likely batteries later.

Must dash late for York WFA meeting!

Peter

[Deb R]

14 minutes ago, petwes said:

In my opinion the highest probability would be Belgium during 3rd Battle of Ypres.  I look for likely batteries later.

Must dash late for York WFA meeting!

Peter

Thank you!  Your time is very much appreciated.  I had given up on ever finding where he might have been ... only had that small amount of information by older family members and they all said Ted didn't often speak of it.  

 

blessings

Deb 

[charlie962]

A casualt list dated 23 October 1917 normally suggests a wounding date about 3rd/4th week of Sept 1917.

[FROGSMILE]

This casualty entry in a newspaper is a great find Deb, it proves the family stories of his wounding are true.  Bear in mind that he would have been sent to a casualty clearing station and then a general or field hospital, followed by a period convalescing at yet another hospital facility at home.  It will be worth looking in Stroud local newspapers in the period just after he was wounded as they would often record the wounding of ‘local boys’.  I agree with petwes that the battle of Passchendaele (aka 3rd Ypres) seems the most likely time for him to have become a casualty.

Edited 13 January , 2018 by FROGSMILE

[petwes]

Here's a list of the number of deaths per day in RGA batteries for the probable period of Ted's wounding.

 

 

 

I'll have a look at service numbers to see if there are any men with similar numbers.

 

Peter

[FROGSMILE]

Brilliant stuff Peter, it’s very good of you to provide those statistics and a fascinating way to try and identify Ted’s likely unit.  It will be great if we can find the war diaries of the most likely batteries in due course and look for casualty incidents.  If family lore is correct it seems to have been a traumatic event with high casualties.  I imagine these might have been incidents of counter battery fire.

Edited 13 January , 2018 by FROGSMILE

[Deb R]

Fantastic!  Thank you feel like we are getting closer ... I've read a couple of memorials to the men of the 186th including this one - bit if a long shot but according to Fred if his memory is correct they were shelled although imagine most of them may have died this way.  How many men per gun? 

 

Gordon Parnall Kemp, born Edmonton 1887, killed in action 26 September 1917 during the Third Battle of Ypres (the Battle of Passchendaele).  Gunner of the Royal Garrison Artillery, 186th Siege Battery – from 5 September 1917 to 17 December 1917 the 186th Siege Battery was serving under 33rd Heavy Artillery Group.  From the Essex Chronicle, 19 October 1917:

 

Memorial Tablet -by Siegfried Sassoon (1918)
Squire nagged and bullied till I went to fight,
(Under Lord Derby’s scheme). I died in hell –

(They called it Passchendaele). My wound was slight,
And I was hobbling back; and then a shell
Burst slick upon the duckboards: so I fell
Into the bottomless mud, and lost the light

At sermon-time, while Squire is in his pew,
He gives my gilded name a thoughtful stare;
For, though low down upon the list, I’m there;
“In proud and glorious memory” … that’s my due.
Two bleeding years I fought in France, for Squire:
I suffered anguish that he’s never guessed.
I came home on leave: and then went west…
What greater glory could a man desire?

 

 

Edited 13 January , 2018 by Deb R

[Deb R]

33 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

This casualty entry in a newspaper is a great find Deb, it proves then family stories of his wounding are true.  Bear in mind that he would have been sent to a casualty clearing station and then a general or field hospital, followed by a period convalescing at yet another hospital facility at home.  It will be worth looking in Stroud local newspapers in the period just after he was wounded as they would often record the wounding of ‘local boys’.

I know! Feel like we may be getting a bit closer to at least finding out where Ted was when injured.  Might not solve our photo of the soldier in Boer war uniform but if the family story has some truth to it I will be happy.

 

my grandfather was born in 1910 and Ted bought the family to Australia in 1927 this picture is probably taken not too long after they came so my grandfather William Alfred John Clark AKA Jack would probably still have been a teen and I can see some similarities to the soldier in the photo (particularly the eyes) Jack though had Daisy's colouring of dark hair but had blue eyes like Ted.

 

 

[clk]

Hi Deb,

 

If you've got a bit of time on your hands, you could probably narrow the likely date of his wounding to within a couple of days. What I'd be tempted to do is to take the surname and service number of the RGA men that appear in the newspaper casualty report. You could then search (it's really easy to do on FMP) to see if they have surviving service papers. If they do, then I would think that you may find a commonality of wounding dates (within a day or so) in their records.

 

Much more of a long shot would be to note the unit of the men that you did find files for. Then on the big assumption that your man wasn't the only one that was wounded/killed on that day from his unit, you might be able to establish (by frequency of men noted) an order of war diaries to look at, in the hope that they were (uncommonly) written up in sufficient detail so as to actually name casualties.

 

Regards

Chris 

[petwes]

Chris

Regarding the first part of your suggestion, great idea, but not a simple job.  I am carrying out a similar exercise for the following month for RGA wounded. These are the results for the casualty list for 21st November 1917 showing actual date of wounded from surviving service records.  I am only half way through the total but obviously finding matching service records is a bit of a lottery (although a greater number of records survive than I expected).

 

 

This gives the most frequent date as 35 days before published.  I think the distribution is distorted by the small size of my sample plus the fact that casualties occurred 7 days a week but suspect the "daily" published reports might have been Monday to Friday; perhaps someone with more knowledge can advise?

 

 

Peter

Edited 13 January , 2018 by petwes

[Deb R]

Thank you for the tips I have find my past membership so even if time consuming I will have a look.  Also just googling the different RGA seige battalions throws up a few names so I can see if they too have surviving redords.

 

if there is some truth to the family story then I might look at the days where large numbers are killed like the 9 killed on the 26th.  Which is why I was curious as to how many men man a gun?  I thought I read somewhere the number 10 but I also understand the number can vary?  

 

Its worth a shot to see to see if any stands out. 

 

Also see if there is is a way of looking at Stroud newspapers for that time, I could ask the Gloucestershire family history centre to look  for me. 

 

I should also hopefully receive a copy of my great uncles birth certificate he was Teds 4th son and born in sept 2016, In the hope it might have something concerning Teds whereabouts at that time seeing as he was called up in December 1915.

 

im very thankful for the next piece in the family puzzle 

blessings

deb 

[petwes]

Deb

If you have FMP maybe looking for men with service numbers close to yours might build up a pattern. 

 

If you want to be drawn deeper into the arcane arts of RGA research also look at this Gold Dust.

 

[Deb R]

1 hour ago, petwes said:

Deb

If you have FMP maybe looking for men with service numbers close to yours might build up a pattern. 

 

If you want to be drawn deeper into the arcane arts of RGA research also look at this Gold Dust.

 

Thanks again I had been in touch with Kevin once before when looking at the Boer war soldier number and he was helpful so will look again thanks :-) 

 

will be sure to post if I find anything 

blessings 

Deb 

[Deb R]

4 hours ago, petwes said:

Deb

If you have FMP maybe looking for men with service numbers close to yours might build up a pattern. 

 

If you want to be drawn deeper into the arcane arts of RGA research also look at this Gold Dust.

 

Thanks again I had been in touch with Kevin once before when looking at the Boer war soldier number and he was helpful so will look again thanks :-) 

 

will be sure to post if I find anything 

blessings 

Deb 

[Deb R]

Have one more question - on above papers it also says he was signaler - what might this have entailed?  I ask because I decided to start with deaths and had made good start when I came across a post from some years ago.  So I wondered if there could be a connection.

 

blessings 

deb 

PS their regimental numbers are all over the place so that might not help me.  I did find another man from Gloucestershire with the 186th but he was not there that day. 

 

James Connolly was acting bombardier