Cap badge identification please

[MBrockway]

two good conduct badges do not mean 6 years service but 5. Therefore he could have anywhere between 5 and almost 12 years service, and even more if he had periods of naughtiness.

Regarding TF service, the GC badge was not applicable but somewhere I have a record of TF men being granted the wearing of badges at some time into the Great War. I fear I have mislaid my reference.

8 November 1912 for East Surrey man according to SWB record. Two GC Chevrons suggests his photo is after 8 November 1917, so the photo must be after his repatriation.

Good thinking!

Pte. Alfred Victor ELSON, L/10571, 1st Bn., East Surrey Regiment was admitted to hospital at repatriation on 23 Feb 1918.

He's still in hospital blues for the Daily Mail photo published on 27 Feb 1918 (though the photo may be from days earlier).

He was discharged with a Silver War Badge on 29 Jun 1918 so would not have been able to wear uniform thereafter.

That brackets the photos of him with William Elson between 23 Feb and 29 Jun 1918.

Pte William George ELSON, M/301063, ASC has Home Leave listed in his Service Record between 10 Mar 1918 and 24 Mar 1918 - presumably to be with his repatriated brother.

I propose that is when these photos were taken.

[Blackblue]

Nice work. Two chevrons is 5 years, I made a typo with 6!

My former post is relevant. We are trying to establish who the 2 x men named Alfred Victor Elson are. One of the possibilities being pursued is that one of them was an unidentified brother who used the same name. All the other known brothers are accounted for are they not?

I am wondering if Alice might have had another son before her marriage to George in 1892. The Essex man looks older than early 20s to me.

[MBrockway]

This thread has certainly deepened with intrigue. The latest photo from Mary clearly shows a man with an Essex Rgt cap badge (Sphinx and castle very clear, there's also 2 children in the background) and this is certainly not the same man as the East Surrey one.

Elson essex.jpg

Elson east surrey.jpg

Jon - any sign of LSGC chevrons or wound stripes on his sleeves?

[jay dubaya]

No other distinguising features to be seen, but I will have another look later when back home

[MBrockway]

I think a Review of what we have discovered so far is in order at this stage!

We have a conundrum of two men called Alfred Victor Elson.

The first is Pte. Alfred Victor ELSON, L/10571, 1st Bn., East Surrey Regiment. Pre-War Regular and repatriated POW.

• Enlisted 08 Nov 1912
• Embarked in France on 16 Aug 1914
• No Service Record can be found.
• Appears in Red Cross POW records as Captured 08 May 1917
• Next of Kin details link him to the Frost family in Battersea (that of Mary's grandfather's mother)
• Repatriated and admitted to hospital in Blighty on 23 Feb 1918
• Appears in Daily Mail on 27 Feb 1918 in hospital blues with East Surreys badge
• Appears in family photos with William wearing East Surreys cap badge, 2 LSGC chevrons and 2 wound stripes taken in mid March 1918
• Discharged with SWB on 29 Jun 1918.

Then we have the second, Pte Alfred Victor ELSON, 3/2814, 11th Bn., Essex Regiment, KiA 22 Apr 1917

• based on Paul Nixon's Service Number Blog, enlisted circa Aug 1914 into 3rd (Reserve) Bn initially
• posted to 11th (Service) Battalion
• embarked in France 30 Aug 1915 with the battalion
• Writes to William as 'Your affectionate brother Alf' under address 'Pte A. Elson 3/2814, 11^th Batt Essex Regt, H.Q. Machine Gun Section, B.E.F.'
• In letter to William, with respect to the queue for Home Leave, mentions he is behind men who have not been home for over 12 months, suggesting Alf has been home more recently than that.
• appears in family photo in back garden with Essex cap badge, no LSGC chevrons,
• Killed in Action 22 Apr 1917
• Listed in The Times as Killed on 31 May 1917 (I haven't mentioned that yet as it didn't add much)
• Family receive Memorial Plaque ('Death Penny') inscribed 'Alfred Victor Elson' & Scroll, but Scroll has been lost
• Will's wife Florence Elson writes to War Office asking re location of grave of Pte A. Elson on 05 Dec 1918
• War Office reply saying the grave 'has not yet been located'

We have also noticed a strong family resemblance between these two men in the photos, strong enough to generate speculation about a younger brother enlisting.

I propose a much simpler solution: these two Alfred Victor Elsons are in fact the same man!

Here's what I think is going on ....

• Alfred Victor Elson is born in approx 1896 in Battersea.
• There are no other Alfred Victor Elsons in this period in any of the birth registers in the UK
• 08 Nov 1912 - Alfred joins up into the 1st East Surreys as L/10571
• 16 Aug 1914 - Alfred lands in France with the East Surreys as an Old Contemptible in 14 Brigade, 5th Division.
• He goes through all the heavy fighting in the autumn and gets a Blighty wound
• Back in Blighty, he gets transferred to the 3rd (Special Reserve) Bn., Essex Regt once he's out of hospital and given a new Essex Regiment Service Number.of 3/2814
• Still in Blighty he is posted to 11th (Service) Bn, Essex Regt. The Kitchener battalions were crying out for experienced men to 'leaven the bread' so to speak.
• Probably has his photo taken in the back garden with his Essex cap badge on while on leave.
• 30 Aug 1915 - lands in France with 11/Essex
• Writes to his brother William under the sending address 'Pte A. Elson 3/2814, 11^th Batt Essex Regt, H.Q. Machine Gun Section, B.E.F.'
• 22 Apr 1917 - is badly wounded near Arleux/Oppy and ends up in territory held by the enemy. Could be during a British attack that fails, or during an enemy attack that doesn't. As he was a machine gunner, being overrun in defence may be the more likely.
• His battalion report him Missing Presumed Killed. There is much confusion over the exact casualty returns.
• 08 May 1917 - he is appears in German Army paperwork as a Captured POW
• He gives his regiment as his original regular battalion - 1st East Surreys - and his Surreys Service Number of L/10571.
• Perhaps he wanted to confuse enemy intelligence gathering, or perhaps he wanted to obscure the fact he was a machine gunner - I believe MG men, like trench mortar specialists were 'not popular'.
• Perhaps he was in a very poor state and he was still wearing his East Surreys dog tags.
• Perhaps he only ever regarded himself temporarily with the Essex Regt.
• He gives his next of kin as a Miss Frost in Battersea. This might be his widowed mother Alice Kate Elson (nee Frost), his grandmother Mary Ann Frost (but probably wrong address for her) or possibly his maternal aunt Lizzie Mary Tozer, who may have reverted to her maiden name Frost at this time.
• He gives the Germans different birth dates
• Meanwhile, the War Office back in Blighty are continuing to treat Alfred Victor Elson, 3/2814, Essex Regt as being Killed in Action. Presumably the Red Cross reports all came through under his East Surreys number and the connection was not spotted. The family probably got news from Alf direct that he was safe as a POW and assume the War Office no longer regard him as KiA..
• 23 Feb 18 - He is repatriated via Holland to Blighty and admitted to the King George Hospital in SE1
• 27 Feb - he has his photo on the cover of the Daily Mail wearing hospital blues and an East Surreys cap badge
• 10-24 Mar 1918 - he has his photo taken with William back on Home Leave wearing East Surreys cap badge, 2 LSGC chevrons, 2 Wound stripes and an MG trade badge.
• 29 Jun 1918 - Alf is discharged due to Wounds with a Silver War Badge
• Late 1918 - the family receive the various forms connected with Next of Kin details for plaque and medal issue from War Office and Ministry of Pensions. Perhaps only now do Alf and the family realise his alter ego as 3/2814 11/Essex Regt is still regarded as KiA by the authorities.
• 05 Dec 1918 - Will's wife Florence Elson writes to the War Office asking for the grave details of Pte A. Elson
• 08 Jan 1919 - War Office replies confirming that no grave has yet been located for Pte A. Elson
• Some time after Dec 1918 a Death Penny for Alfred Victor Elson, 3/2814, 11/Essex arrives.

Basically the two Alfred Victor Elsons are the same man and the casualty listing and the plaque are an administrative mistake!

Alf was erroneously reported Killed and this was not corrected when the news came through he was in enemy hands because he had reverted to his old service number.

What do we think?

It certainly explains a lot (but not all) of our evidence.

A few mifits:

Essex 3/2184 Service Number would normally point to an enlistment of August 1914 according to Paul Nixon.

Jon nor I can see a wound stripe on the photo of Alf in the back garden with the Essex cap badge.

If my theory is correct then why would the family write to the War Office about a grave location when they knew perfectly well Alf was safe among them?

I'd say they wanted the re-assurance of knowing that the grave of the loved one of some other family was not incorrectly marked as Alf. Finding out that 'Alf' had no known grave proved to the family that another soldier was not being overlooked under an incorrect headstone.

In all other respects having a death penny when you're alive and kicking must have made a great story!

Right - time for me to stand back and let you all spot the flaws that I've missed! LOL!

Mark

[Blackblue]

Here's the 36 Parkham Street Frosts in the 1911 Census. Linked to the East Surreys man. Does this take us any further?

http://search.ancestry.com.au/cgi-bin/sse.dll?rank=1&new=1&MSAV=1&msT=1&gss=angs-g&gsln=Frost+&msypn__ftp=Battersea%2c+Surrey%2c+England&msypn=85379&msypn_PInfo=8-%7c0%7c0%7c3257%7c3251%7c0%7c0%7c0%7c5286%7c85379%7c0%7c&gskw=Parkham+&cpxt=1&catBucket=rstp&uidh=tg7&cp=11&pcat=ROOT_CATEGORY&h=3563777&db=1911England&indiv=1&ml_rpos=1

Rgds

Tim D

[MBrockway]

Here's the 36 Parkham Street Frosts in the 1911 Census. Linked to the East Surreys man. Does this take us any further?

http://search.ancestry.com.au/cgi-bin/sse.dll?rank=1&new=1&MSAV=1&msT=1&gss=angs-g&gsln=Frost+&msypn__ftp=Battersea%2c+Surrey%2c+England&msypn=85379&msypn_PInfo=8-%7c0%7c0%7c3257%7c3251%7c0%7c0%7c0%7c5286%7c85379%7c0%7c&gskw=Parkham+&cpxt=1&catBucket=rstp&uidh=tg7&cp=11&pcat=ROOT_CATEGORY&h=3563777&db=1911England&indiv=1&ml_rpos=1

Rgds

Tim D

Ripper! This is Frederick Oscar FROST and family, the youngest brother of William and Alf's mother.

The link converted to UK Ancestry: http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/2352/rg14_02192_0491_03/3563771?backurl=&ssrc=&backlabel=ReturnRecord#?imageId=rg14_02192_0493_03

Oops sorry link was wrong first time

Edited 1 October , 2014 by MBrockway

[Muerrisch]

LSGC is a bit of a misnomer. It usually refers to the Long Service and Good Conduct Medal, gained by exemplary service over many years.

Better to use good conduct badge or GCB.

[Blackblue]

I have actually been looking at the same thing Mark.

The clincher for me is the original East Surreys photo compared to the Essex photo. I don't think they are the same man. I think the Essex man has a longer chin and looks quite a bit older.

I don't know if he would have had time to discharge from East Surreys and join Essex Regt with such an early number?

Rgds

Tim

[MBrockway]

I think we need help from some East Surrey and Essex specialists who might be able to give some War Diary corroboration on the hypothesis.

LSGC is a bit of a misnomer. It usually refers to the Long Service and Good Conduct Medal, gained by exemplary service over many years.

Better to use good conduct badge or GCB.

Good point David - I'll aim to adopt that in future.

[Blackblue]

The 4 x photos.

[Blackblue]

And the brother....

[Mary Robinson]

I think it's a cracking theory but the enhanced photos to me are not of the same man. Whilst the nose pretty much matches there is no chin dimple and, most tellingly, the earlobe shape is different.

What a shame!

M

[jay dubaya]

Indeed Mary almost a plausible theory, but I too agree that the Essex Alfred is not the East Surrey Alfred, but he certainly has the look of the Elson clan about him. Maybe it's time to check over some local papers of the time

[Mary Robinson]

Of course the 'Uncle Alf' photo could be a red herring ...

M

[Mary Robinson]

You mention that there is no other Alfred Victor Elson birth in the appropriate period but 'Uncle Alf' looks quite a bit older to me.

Would there have been any financial advantage to maintaining the KIA story after East Surry Alfred turned up I wonder?

M

[MBrockway]

You mention that there is no other Alfred Victor Elson birth in the appropriate period but 'Uncle Alf' looks quite a bit older to me.

Would there have been any financial advantage to maintaining the KIA story after East Surrey Alfred turned up I wonder?

M

I was too discreet to mention that but a war widow would have been entitled to a pension.

So far I have failed to find a marriage for Alf though.

I don't think his mother would have had any entitlement as he was past his majority.

Were my hypothesis true, there would also have been a second set of medals. East Surreys Alf was entitled to a trio with 1914 Star. Essex Alf the trio with 1914-15 Star. The British War Medal was often sold on due to its silver content.

I'll be putting up a separate post requesting a VM/BWM medal roll look up for both Alfs.

It's a long shot, but there may be details of battalions and transfers shown and that might help us with our detective work.

I think we've already asked this, but does the family have any of Alf's medals?

[Mary Robinson]

Thanks Mark.

No medals I'm afraid.

Further photo attached of 'Uncle Alf'. Nothing written on the back of this one. Probably not helpful.

M

[MBrockway]

One further bit of (weak) support for the hypothesis is that 3/2814 Essex Alf is labelled as 'Dead' on his MIC rather than 'K.I.A.'

This is often used when a Missing In Action soldier has been officially Accepted as Dead on the basis of witness evidence and the absence of any subsequent contradiction from the enemy via the neutral powers.

[Colin W Taylor]

In response to the thread on the units section:

1 - The 11th Essex were in the Loos area on 22nd April 1917 - they were in Novel Trench and attacked Nash Trench. Not very near Arleux/Oppy

2 - No mention of rolls for the 11th Essex war diary on their arrival in France - a bit of a long shot though.

6 - No mention of the 1st E Surreys being in action on 22nd April though they moved into the line overnight ready for an attack the next day. They were east of Givenchy near Vimy - nearer but still not near Oppy/Arleux.

I'd suggest someone looking up the Red Cross enquiry lists to see who find who the British though was missing as opposed to who the Germans reported as PoW.

Kind regards

Colin

[MBrockway]

It turns out the War Diary for 1st Bn., East Surrey Regiment is available on-line here: http://www.queensroyalsurreys.org.uk/war_diaries/local/1Bn_East_Surrey.shtml

Looking at 08 May 1917, which is the day East Surrey Alf is recorded in the Kriegs-Ministerium reports as being captured in the Arleux/Oppy area, it emerges the battalion lost the village of FRESNOY during a very effective German counter-attack. 420 OR's were reported Missing. There's a full report of the 'Reverse' in the War Diary, running to 6 pages - see here: http://qrrarchive.websds.net/PDF/ES00119170508.pdf.

FRESNOY is E of Arleux and N of Oppy.

I also discovered this map of the position, Arleux-en-Gohelle is visible to the west and Oppy is just off the map to the S :

That's rather a blow to the hypothesis as it is clear that the Alf who was taken POW on 08 May 1916 was either with 1st Bn, East Surrey or the Brigade Machine Gun Company supporting the battalion and definitely not with the 11/Essex Regt.

For the hypothesis of the two Alfs being one and the same man to be true, the 11/Essex Regt Alf would have to have transferred back to the 1st East Surreys in time for this action at Fresnoy on 08 May.

With luck the medal roll look-ups may cast light on that.

I shall certainly re-examine the possibility that the 11/Essex Regt 'Alf' was another member of the family using Alf's name anyway.

[jay dubaya]

I shall certainly re-examine the possibility that the 11/Essex Regt 'Alf' was another member of the family using Alf's name anyway.

Has this Alfred Elson been discounted?

I applaud you work Mark, there are several points that would fit with it being one man and possibly without the photographs the theory would have legs but I believe we're dealing with 2 different men.

Annoyingly I'm on work overload at present so not much time for digging but enjoying the conundrum none the less

[MBrockway]

Has this Alfred Elson been discounted?

I applaud you work Mark, there are several points that would fit with it being one man and possibly without the photographs the theory would have legs but I believe we're dealing with 2 different men.

Annoyingly I'm on work overload at present so not much time for digging but enjoying the conundrum none the less

Jon - I'm not precious about the hypothesis - if it's wrong, it's wrong! And all the material is still darned useful to the family however it ends up.

Your link to another Alfred Elson launches the Australian version of Ancestry and my UK subscription is invalid there, so I just get the banner page inviting me to spend Aussie $s!

If you give some detail I should be able to locate him on the UK version and put in a link for us poms!

EDIT:

Manually editing the hyperlink to <dot>co<dot>uk gives this: http://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?rank=1&new=1&MSAV=1&gss=angs-c&gsfn=alfred&gsln=elson&gskw=wandsworth&cpxt=1&catBucket=rstp&uidh=i27&cp=11&pcat=35&h=4927626&db=uki1901&indiv=1&ml_rpos=7

... and yes, this is our Alfred at school in 1901. William is at the same school.

Edited 3 October , 2014 by MBrockway

[Mary Robinson]

The war diary sleuth work is intriguing. I can see no way through this at the moment and have quite literally lost sleep this week turning everything I've read over and over! I'm off for a gulp of sea air this weekend so will leave the deepening conundrum in your very capable hands.

Regards,

M

[Blackblue]

I have a theory.

How confident are we on Alfred's actual Date of Birth? Has his original Birth Certificate been obtained? The only record we can find of Alfred Victor Elson's birth on Ancestry appears to be 4th Quarter 1895 at Wandsworth. This appears more or less consistent with the 1911 Census and 1901 Census entries, so I think we can assume this is our man.

Despite the Essex man looking older perhaps he is the real deal. He might just have an old face! The family that inquires about his grave appears to be his brother/wife's family which I think is a likely Next of Kin in the circumstances.

The East Surreys man appears to list his Next of Kin as a Miss Frost - a cousin? When this man is a POW (despite apparently wounded) he gives two entirely different Dates of Birth a few days apart and both appear at odds with his known recorded Date of Birth. This is quite strange I would say. When men's Attestation Papers were filled out they did not usually have to give a Date of Birth (just an age) and I don't think there would usually have been call to remember one after that.

In addition to this we cannot confirm the whereabouts of either Alfred after 1918, nor a Death.

Perhaps the East Surreys man was a relative who used Alfred's details to enlist underage in the East Surreys in 1912?

Might the East Surreys Alfred actually be Percy...or perhaps even a Frost? Percy was of age to serve from around the start of 1916, and I think we can rule 3 of the 4 men with MICs out as enlisting too early in the war to be Percy using his correct age.

Rgds

Tim D