MBrockway Posted 24 September , 2014 Share Posted 24 September , 2014 I suspect it's 'MG' within the wreath, this would be the battalion machine gun (Vickers) section. I think this may date the photo pre October 1915. If need be Mary you can email the photo to me and I can crop etc. Jon And since he is NOT wearing a Machine Gun Corps cap badge, the two LSGC chevrons suggest he must have had pre-war service, either as a Regular or in the TF. Guessing (highly speculatively!) he could be a London-based 'terrier' and working off the blurry blow-up higher up, I'd say the London Rifle Brigade (5/LR) and the Hackney Rifles (10/LR) are two good candidates, with the former probably the favourite as the Hackney Rifles were only founded in 1912. Can't remember if the LRB wore blackened buttons, but even if they generally did, absence of blackened buttons never rules out a man being in a rifles unit. Here's hoping the new scans come up trumps! London Rifle Brigade (5/London Regt) Hackney Rifles (10/London Regt) For the other chap, the Civil Service Rifles (15/London Regt) were of course a TF unit. Their badge ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jay dubaya Posted 24 September , 2014 Share Posted 24 September , 2014 But that shoulder title doesn't fit with the Londons so I'd be more swayed with a regular battalion Jon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MBrockway Posted 24 September , 2014 Share Posted 24 September , 2014 Curved shoulder title probably not a TF unit <snip> Jon The LRB shoulder title was definitely curved in the form T/5/CITY OF LONDON (stacked in three rows with the bottom row curved into an arc) but it was usually blackened. Cannot find detail on the Hackney Rifles, but the County of London LR battalions generally followed the form T/<bn number>/LONDON, again with the bottom row curved. The CSR shoulder title was likewise in the form T/15/LONDON, again curved and again blackened. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MBrockway Posted 24 September , 2014 Share Posted 24 September , 2014 But that shoulder title doesn't fit with the Londons so I'd be more swayed with a regular battalion Jon Sorry - our posts crossed. I certainly agree it is hard to make out the additional two 'rows' showing the T and the battalion number above the curved part, so you may well be right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mary Robinson Posted 24 September , 2014 Author Share Posted 24 September , 2014 MG it is! Jon - I would like to e-mail the pdf's to you if you wouldn't mind. I've had no joy here with them. The cap badge for my standing chap is now clear enough I think (on 400% resolution) for identification by anyone who may be familiar. Many thanks M Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jay dubaya Posted 24 September , 2014 Share Posted 24 September , 2014 Mary, if you click on my avatar you'll find my email address lurking within Jon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mary Robinson Posted 26 September , 2014 Author Share Posted 26 September , 2014 Thanks for your interest. I have only just now succeeded in sending the scanned pictures through to Jon. Hopefully he will be able to make something of them for me. M Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muerrisch Posted 26 September , 2014 Share Posted 26 September , 2014 two good conduct badges do not mean 6 years service but 5. Therefore he could have anywhere between 5 and almost 12 years service, and even more if he had periods of naughtiness. Regarding TF service, the GC badge was not applicable but somewhere I have a record of TF men being granted the wearing of badges at some time into the Great War. I fear I have mislaid my reference. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevinrowlinson Posted 26 September , 2014 Share Posted 26 September , 2014 Regarding TF service, the GC badge was not applicable but somewhere I have a record of TF men being granted the wearing of badges at some time into the Great War. I fear I have mislaid my reference. ACI 1582 of 13th Aug. 1916. Kevin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muerrisch Posted 26 September , 2014 Share Posted 26 September , 2014 Kevin, many thanks ....... I ought to have it somewhere ................. fumble, rustle, curse, dig, delve, rummage, curse ............. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jay dubaya Posted 27 September , 2014 Share Posted 27 September , 2014 They that grow old shall forget where they put things.... Mary has emailed the two photos and I've had a quick crop, from photo 1 and photo 2 The cap badge of the standing soldier in photo 1 strikes good for the East Surrey's and fits with the S/T in the 2nd photo, certainly a twice wounded Machine Gunner with 2 GC badges (see above), but as for the rifleman the cap badge is so indistinct I really couldn't say at present. What names do you have to go on Mary? Jon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MBrockway Posted 27 September , 2014 Share Posted 27 September , 2014 The shoulder title is clearly NOT the 'three-decker' London Regiment territorial style we discussed above. As well as eliminating the 5/LR and 10/LR, that also allows us to rule out 23/London Regiment despite that battalion using a variant of the East Surreys 'star' badge. I agree with Jon's conclusion - a member of the Machine Gun section of an East Surrey Regt fighting battalion. Jon - it might still be worth posting the rifleman's cap badge even if indistinct. Our collective eyes may be able to make some inferences even from a blurred pic and to be honest, he's my main interest - LOL! Are his ST's visible at all? Mary - with names, we might be able to connect two soldiers in the East Surreys and (possibly) the Civil Service Rifles. The East Surrey soldier is also likely to have been transferred to the Machine Gun Corps some time after late 1915/early 1916, That might make an MIC search a little narrower if your man has a common name. Also the fact he is twice wounded and has two LSGC chevrons up and is still in the East Surreys could suggest he is likely to be a pre-War regular. Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MBrockway Posted 27 September , 2014 Share Posted 27 September , 2014 The rate at which the men in the battalion machine gun sections were transferred into the brigade machine gun companies varied depending on how quickly those infantry battalions were equipped with Lewis guns As an illustration, in 14th (Light) Division, 7/KRRC lost its machine gun section on 18 Feb 1916, 8/KRRC on 15 Feb 1916, while in 20th (Light) Division the transfers were completed by 03 Mar 1916. It's not 100% clear, but the war diaries certainly seem to suggest the men changed regiment to the MGC at this time. Some digging in the Army List may well clarify this, but I won't have time for that till later! Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackblue Posted 27 September , 2014 Share Posted 27 September , 2014 Agree first man is likely East Surreys. The second looks like a blackened Devons badge or East Surreys without the scroll. I see East Surreys wore such a badge in the 1890s with QVC. Might thee have been an East Surreys Bn who carried on with no scroll and was affiliated with rifles? Rgds Tim D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackblue Posted 27 September , 2014 Share Posted 27 September , 2014 I see 21st and 23rd Bns London Regiment were affiliated. It does look like 23rd Londons...minus the scroll. They were formed from 4th VB East Surreys in 1908. Wonder if this is a VB badge? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackblue Posted 27 September , 2014 Share Posted 27 September , 2014 Bingo? Or is this a collar? http://www.germanmilitaria.com/OtherNations/photos/C035866.html Rgds Tim D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MBrockway Posted 27 September , 2014 Share Posted 27 September , 2014 I see 21st and 23rd Bns London Regiment were affiliated. It does look like 23rd Londons...minus the scroll. They were formed from 4th VB East Surreys in 1908. Wonder if this is a VB badge? Are you talking about the chap with the blackened buttons? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackblue Posted 27 September , 2014 Share Posted 27 September , 2014 Yes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MBrockway Posted 27 September , 2014 Share Posted 27 September , 2014 His cap badge is so blurred, to be honest I can't see a garter star shape there at all. I'll hold to see if Jon can post a better image. 21/London Regt - the First Surrey Rifles - had rifles traditions, but their cap badge was based on the KRRC's maltese cross, not the East Surreys' eight pointed star. Pre-Haldane, they had been the East Surreys' 1st Volunteer Battalion, but became part of the new London Regiment in 1908. They were re-affiliated back to tthe East Surreys in 1916, but insignia and titles were all unchanged. 23/London Regt also came from a rifle volunteer background (7th, 24th and 26th Surrey RVC) but I have no information suggesting they wore blackened buttons nor that their East Surrey star-based cap badge was blackened. All examples I have seen have NOT been blackened. K&K only mention versions in white metal/gilding metal, gilt-and-silver, bronze and brass [KK 1855]. All cap badge versions appear to have had a scroll. 13/London Regt - the Kensingtons - had a cap badge with an eight-pointed star without a scroll, but again no version was blackened [KK 1839]. The Kensingtons had been affiliated to the KRRC before Haldane and had maintained rifles traditions, but in Jan 1909 they reverted to a standard regiment of the line carrying colours etc. Indeed when the London Regimet battalions re-affiliated in 1916, the Kensingtons went to the Middlesex Regt not the KRRs. As far as I can ascertain, their buttons were standard GS brass. The 6th Bn East Surrey Regt had rifle volunteer traditions and had a blackened eight-pointed star cap badge but it had a scroll underneath [KK 1724]. Not sure about the suggestion of a pre-1908 VB badge - how is that compatible with wound stripes? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackblue Posted 27 September , 2014 Share Posted 27 September , 2014 Nothing to do with wound stripes. I wondered if a version of the VB Badge might still be in use. I have seen such a thing with other regiments. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jay dubaya Posted 28 September , 2014 Share Posted 28 September , 2014 Alas t'is the best I can do at present, and the badge is still indistinct although it could be a 'star' background. Hopefully Mary will throw some names in the bucket, the scans which Mary sent me were entitled 'Elson' which throws up a few hits for the East Surrey's. Should anyone want copies of the scans please let me know as I'm sure Mary wouldn't mind Jon the above image is from the seated rifleman who has no other identifying features Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mary Robinson Posted 28 September , 2014 Author Share Posted 28 September , 2014 Well, I've certainly missed lots of progress over the weekend. As to more details of what we 'know' about these boys, one is definitely grandfather William George Elson who we understood was in some kind of auxiliary unit and survived the war. We have some nice photos of him with engines and even a very smart staff car. Engineer type stuff. We have some kind of war service exemption certificate covering 1915 but he clearly moved on from there. He had a brother, Alfred Victor Elson, born 1896, who was killed in April 1917 and who was in the Essex regiment when he died. We were hoping to clarify whether it is Fred in the photos. From what you have discovered it is looking less likely than I had hoped now. Thanks to Jon for the work on the photos. M Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MBrockway Posted 29 September , 2014 Share Posted 29 September , 2014 (edited) Well from Jon's new image of the cap badge of the chap with the blackened buttons, we can 100% dismiss the Civil Service Rifles anyway! It could certainly be the star of the Army Service Corps and there is an MIC and a Service Record for a Pte William George ELSON, M/301063 a Steam Fitter in the ASC Mechanical Transport Section mobilised 15 Mar 1917. He was from 62 Gwynne Road, Battersea, so almost certainly Mary's grandfather. By coincidence that's only about 500 yds from an old flat of mine back in the 1980's! I'm at a loss to explain the blackened buttons though. Could they be the embossed leather buttons seen later in the War and not rifles buttons at all?? Any chance of a close up of the buttons Jon? Edited 1 October , 2014 by MBrockway Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MBrockway Posted 29 September , 2014 Share Posted 29 September , 2014 .... one is definitely grandfather William George Elson who we understood was in some kind of auxiliary unit and survived the war. We have some nice photos of him with engines and even a very smart staff car. Engineer type stuff. We have some kind of war service exemption certificate covering 1915 but he clearly moved on from there. M William's Service Record shows him attesting in Dec 1915 (probably under the Derby/Group Scheme) but not being mobilised until 15 Mar 1917. He then appears to have spent most of his time in ASC Repair Shops in Grove Park and at the BEF's MT Depot. As he was only in his very early 20s married but with no children, some sort of exemption due to specialist skills seems a good explanation to his not being called up with his age group in 1916. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackblue Posted 29 September , 2014 Share Posted 29 September , 2014 There you go. I'm sure most of us had considered ASC, but discounted due to buttons and darkened appearance of the badge! Maybe it's grease! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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