Cap badge identification please

[jay dubaya]

Sorry Mark don't know why you ended up with a link to the Aussie site, but yes it's the same link to what you converted.

Tim i think your theory is one that's worth pursuing and one that has already crossed my mind, but I'm resigned to the fact that the whole truth may never be known. Do we have any surviving AVLs or access to newspapers?

Jon

[Blackblue]

I see Percy mentioned in a tree on Ancestry, including the name of a daughter - Eileen Elson born 1927.

Perhaps that is worth pursuing with the tree's owner via Ancestry - Norma229? She was online 4 days ago.

Rgds

Tim D

[Blackblue]

Found these on Find My Past - Surrey Recruitment Registers. There are two for Albert Victor Elson...I am guessing probably the same person duplicated. I am guessing a typo for Alfred. Fibs about his age by the looks...even if it is Alfred.

First name(s) Albert Victor

Last name Elson

Service number - Age 18 Years 0 Months

Birth year 1894

Birth place Battersea

Birth county Surrey

Birth country England

Occupation Blind Fixer

Attestation year 1912

Attestation date 08 November 1912

Attestation place Kingston

Unit or regiment East Surrey Regiment

Regiment East Surrey Regiment

Height 5ft 3.75in

Weight in pounds 119

Eye colour Blue

Complexion Fresh

Hair colour Fair

Chest expansion inches 3

Chest size inches 35

Distinctive marks Moles

Remarks A Dubery 101 Harbet Road Battersea

Notes Regular Army enlistments. In this register, details of the mans employer have been added in the Remarks column.

County Surrey

CountryEngland

First name(s) Albert Victor

Last name Elson

Service number - Age 17 Years 9 Months

Birth year 1895

Birth place Battersea

Birth county Surrey

Birth country England

Occupation Blind Fitters Mate

Attestation year 1912 Attestation date 08 August 1912

Attestation place Kingston Unit or regiment East Surrey Regiment (3rd Batn)

Regiment East Surrey Regiment (3rd Batn)

Height 5ft 3.5in.

Weight in pounds 112

Eye colour Grey

Hair colour Light Brown

Chest expansion inches 2

Chest size inches 34

Distinctive marks Moles +

Remarks Mr A Dupan 101 Herbert Rd Battersea

Notes Recruitment register for 3rd [special Reserve] Battalion East Surrey Regiment This volume also includes recruits for the 4th (Extra Reserve) Battalion and the Special and Extra Reserve battalions of other regiments such as The Royal Sussex Regiment, Royal Warwickshire Regiment, Royal Artillery and others. Note that the abbreviation SWPC which appears on some records is probably an acronym for South-Western Police Court.

County Surrey

Country England

Rgds

Tim D

[MBrockway]

I have a theory.

How confident are we on Alfred's actual Date of Birth? Has his original Birth Certificate been obtained? The only record we can find of Alfred Victor Elson's birth on Ancestry appears to be 4th Quarter 1895 at Wandsworth. This appears more or less consistent with the 1911 Census and 1901 Census entries, so I think we can assume this is our man.

Despite the Essex man looking older perhaps he is the real deal. He might just have an old face! The family that inquires about his grave appears to be his brother/wife's family which I think is a likely Next of Kin in the circumstances.

The East Surreys man appears to list his Next of Kin as a Miss Frost - a cousin? When this man is a POW (despite apparently wounded) he gives two entirely different Dates of Birth a few days apart and both appear at odds with his known recorded Date of Birth. This is quite strange I would say. When men's Attestation Papers were filled out they did not usually have to give a Date of Birth (just an age) and I don't think there would usually have been call to remember one after that.

In addition to this we cannot confirm the whereabouts of either Alfred after 1918, nor a Death.

Perhaps the East Surreys man was a relative who used Alfred's details to enlist underage in the East Surreys in 1912?

Might the East Surreys Alfred actually be Percy...or perhaps even a Frost? Percy was of age to serve from around the start of 1916, and I think we can rule 3 of the 4 men with MICs out as enlisting too early in the war to be Percy using his correct age.

Rgds

Tim D

1. Alfred's Date of Birth

Not confident! My main sources are.same as yours - Birth Register entry for Q4 1895 Wandsworth RD and deductions from ages reported on 1901 and 1911 censuses. I've even found a reference to him being born in France! All I am sure of is, is that he is younger than his brother William George Elson and higher up, Mary mentions Will's Date of Birth from his Birth Certificate is 14 Jan 1894 and I have a pukka Baptism Register for William from Apr 1894 ...

UPDATE 17:30hrs Fri 03 Oct: Another source has come to light - their school Admission Register, which has Alf's Birth Year as 1895 ... but Will's as 1893, which is wrong!

2. Enquiries to the Graves Officer

The scan we have from Mary is a bit blurred, but the correspondence appears to be from Miss F. Elson, 62 Gwynne Road, Battersea, SW11, but she is addressed as Madam. Based on the initial and the address, I'm 95% confident this is Alf's sister-in-law, Florence Elson (nee Bird), wife of his brother William, despite the 'Miss'. They were married in Wandsworth Registry Office on 22 Dec 1914. Here's the Next of Kin entry from William's ASC Service Record:

Mary - could you confirm the exact address on the original?

3. East Surreys Alf's Red Cross Next of Kin

The German War Ministry has this as 'Miss Frost 36 Parkham St, Battersea, London'. That is the address of Alf's youngest maternal uncle Frederick Oscar Frost and his family, Alf's mother Alice Kate Elson (nee Frost) is listed at Frederick Frost's address in the 1901 Census a year after she was widowed in 1900. All the children (Alf and his siblings) are spread around relations or boarding at school.

Frederick's eldest son, Frederick Junior, was not born until ~1904, so he's not a strong candidate for an under-age enlistment. Frederick's eldest daughter was born in 1901, so doesn't seem likely for Alf's 'Miss Frost'. There's a slim possibility that Alf's only maternal aunt, Lizzie Mary TOZER (nee Frost) may have separated from her husband and reverted to her maiden name and may have been staying with Frederick, her youngest brother. This is little more than speculation so far though with very little positive evidence. If it's true, then Lizzie Tozer/Frost might be the 'Miss Frost' in Alf's Red Cross data.

4. Alf after the War

I've also been hunting high and low for Alf's death with no luck so far. That caused me to start looking at emigration records and there are some leads in the Canada and USA passenger lists, but to which my Ancestry subscription doesn't stretch! Still digging on all that.

5. The second Alf

I'm more inclined to think the Essex Regiment Alf Elson is the person under the alias. Paul Nixon has the Essex Regt 3/2814 service number pointing to an Aug 1914 enlistment and the 11/Essex Alf embarked with his battalion on 30 Aug 1915. That all fits well for an under age enlistment in the euphoria of the start of the War, whereas we know the East Surreys Alf enlisted as a regular in 1912. It's still possible he could be a 'fake' Alf under age, but I just don't think it's quite as likely. Definitely cannot exclude it yet though! Also the school Alf and William were attending when the 1901 Census was taken, had a very strong tradition of old boys enlisting into the services as regulars (albeit mainly into the Royal Navy).

6. Near relations who might be candidates for an Under Age enlistment

Yep - I'm on the same page as you there Tim and I think Jon's looking at this too. Here are my candidates ...

• Percy Arthur ELSON - Alf's next younger brother, born 1897-8 in Battersea. There is a death for a Percy A Elson registered in Q3 1952 in Surrey Mid Eastern RD, born ~1898, but we should not assume this is the same Percy Elson. I haven't yet t even found Percy in the 1901 census!
• Frank Valentine ELSON - Alf's youngest brother, born 1899-1900 also in Battersea. There is a death for a Frank V Elson registered in Q1 1950 in Kensington RD, born ~1900, but again, we should not assume this is the same man. Only 14 or 15 years old in 1914 though.
• Arthur Frederick TOZER - Alf's cousin, eldest son of Alf's maternal aunt, Lizzie Mary Tozer (nee Frost) that I mentioned under #3 above. Birth registered in Q2 1895, so he would likely have been old enough to enlist in Aug 1914 anyway.
• Charles George TOZER - Alf's cousin, 2nd son of Alf's maternal aunt, Lizzie Mary Tozer (nee Frost). Birth registered in Q4 1898 and 13 yrs old for the Census in Apr 1911. A good candidate for an under age enlistment.
• Any sons of Alfred James ELSON, and his wife Alice Rosetta ELSON (nee Wise). Alfred J Elson was Alf's paternal uncle, the eldest brother of Alf's father George Isaac Elson . I have found Ernest Elson, born ~1896 so far, but chasing cousins down is much more laborious. As Alfred was the eldest of his generation, his sons are less likely to have been under age, but at least they would have the Elson surname.
• Any sons of Arthur ELSON, Alf's paternal uncle, the youngest brother of Alf's father George Isaac Elson . I have not even found a marriage for Arthur as yet.

Alf's mother Alice Kate ELSON (nee Frost) declares on the 1911 Census form that she has had 5 children born alive from her marriage and that all 5 were still living. These are the five children we have already identified. Highly unlikely therefore to be any illegitimate half siblings on Alf's mother's side. She appears to have married again in Q3 1915 to a George M SAMPSON, but I haven't even begun to corroborate this properly yet, let alone investigate if this brought step-brothers onto the scene!

Alf's eldest maternal uncle, George ?William? FROST, born ~1868 was still single and living with his parents in 1901. I have not traced him in the 1911 Census yet - it's a very common name!

Alf's remaining maternal uncle Charles Henry FROST, born ~1877 (the uncle between Alf's mother Alice Kate Elson (nee Frost) and Frederick Oscar Frost) was still single and living with his widowed mother in 1911. I'm not seeing him as a likely line of research yet. The Charles Henry Frost who married Kathleen Price in 1904, appears to be outside this immediate Frost branch.

Alf's eldest paternal aunt, Alice Rosetta ELSON, did not marry until 1928, so I have assumed there were no cousins from her.

UPDATE 12:20hrs 05 Oct: Wrong! Alice R Elson married Russell William STEVENS on 08 Mar1914. I'm now checking for children and also the 1928 marriage.

Alf's youngest paternal aunt, Anne/Annie Elizabeth ELSON, throws up a lot of hits with such a common pair of names, so I've not got far with her.

All this genealogy stuff is worthwhile, but I can't help thinking we may get progress faster from the medal rolls, particularly if there is some detail on battalions, and the war diaires. Chasing down cousins through family history sources is a task that tends to grow exponentially and I've already gone down a lot of long culs de sac just to get as far as I have!

.... and I only got involved cos I thought William might be wearing rifle regiment buttons - LOL! Good thing I'm enjoying the conundrum

Edited 5 October , 2014 by MBrockway

[MBrockway]

Useful find Tim! Attestation date of 08 Nov 1912 ties up with the Silver War Badge roll data.

1911 Battersea Electoral Roll (prepared Oct 1910)

101 Harbut Road

DIV I - Arthur Henry DUPREE, Charles SMITH

DIV II - none

Lodgers - none

DIV III - John Ritchie GILLIES

No doubt the Census and Kelly's Directories will confirm Arthur Dupree is running a blinds business in this part of Battersea.

PS I cannot find Battersea 1918 or 1919 AVLs available on-line anywhere :-(

[Blackblue]

He's under Henry Arthur Dupree in 1911 Census at 111 Harbut.

Rgds

Tim D

[MBrockway]

Mark

I would say you are looking at two different men.

The records relating to the 1^st Battalion, the East Surrey Regiment, during WW1 are quite extensive and include two other ranks casualty rolls c.1916-1919 as well as Battalion Part II Orders 1915-1918. There is an ongoing project to produce a nominal roll for the battalion during the conflict. They also hold the Surrey Recruitment Registers that are also available on Find My Past.

According to the Surrey Recruitment Registers Albert Victor Elson enlisted on 8 August 1912 into the 3^rd (Special Reserve) Battalion, the East Surrey Regiment and then apparently transferred to the regulars on 8 November 1912. I would assume it was the same man as most of the details agree but there are slight differences between the two entries.

When he enlisted into the Special Reserve his date of birth was given as 1895 and a year earlier when he joined the regulars. Both entries state born in Battersea and his trade was originally given as Blind Fitter’s Mate and subsequently as Blind Fixer. His height, weight and chest measurements had all decreased slightly; however his eyes are given as blue and his hair is described as fair on initial enlistment and when joining the regulars grey and light brown respectively. This may well be just the personal perspective of the medical examiner. The remarks column both mention 101 Herbert Road, Battersea and the first entry gives an A Dubery and the second as Mr A Dupan.

L/10571 Private Albert Victor Elson, disembarked in France with the 1^st Battalion, the East Surrey Regiment. He was admitted to hospital on 29 May 1915 with a gunshot wound to his right leg and discharged from hospital on 1 June. He went to Machine Gun School in late 1916/early 1917 and also Grenade School. Albert was reported missing on 8 May 1917 during the action at Fresnoy.

The First World War battalion war diaries for both the Queen’s Royal West Surrey Regiment and the East Surrey Regiment are available to view on-line on the Queens Royal Surrey Regiment’s website www.queensroyalsurreys.org.uk at the following link http://www.queensroyalsurreys.org.uk/war_diaries/war_diaries_home_new.shtml.

regards

Bootneck

This is a post from Bootneck in reply to one of our Request for Help topics here: Essex & East Surrey Regiment experts - help us crack this puzzle

... but I've quoted it here so everything's together.

The East Surrey specialists are able to give a reasonably continuous service history for East Surrey Alf (L/10571).

He did get a Blighty wound in May 1915 from which he was discharged on 01 Jun 1915. That does not rule out a spell with the 11/Essex landing on 30 Aug 1915 as per the MIC for Essex Alf, and we do have a machine gun specialism with both men, but he was certainly with the 1st East Surreys in time to get captured at Fresnoy on 08 May 1917.

UPDATE 19:00hrs 04 Oct: I've stretched the evidence there - actually Bootneck does NOT say it was a Blighty wound, just that he was in hospital. Since he was only in for four days inclusive, it's much more likely this was a Base Hospital in the rear areas.

On balance, it seems more likely that we have two men, but we still haven't conclusively disproved the 'one man and an admin error' hypothesis yet.

Edited 4 October , 2014 by MBrockway

[MBrockway]

Here are the top and bottom of Essex Alf's letter to William ....

Note the address: 'Pte. A. Elson 3/2814, 11th Batt. Essex Regt, H.Q. Machine Gun Section, B.E.F.'

Note also that he signs himself as 'Brother'

The letter is undated, but he does explain the scrawl by saying he's freezing.

Mary has transcribed the full text of Alf's letter and attached it to this post higher up in the Topic but I'm sure she won't mind me pasting the full text again here for convenience. It's on four sides of a folded piece of blank paper and I can vouch for the accuracy of the transcription ...

Pte A. Elson 3/2814

11^th Batt Essex Regt

H.Q. Machine Gun Section

B.E.F.

Dear Will,

Just a few lines thanking you for your most welcome present of cigs. I can tell you they came in jolly handy, as a cigarette is a great comfort out here.

Well, Will, how are you getting on now. Are you still at the same place.

2

By the way, did you hear about young Pete losing his cushy job. Well, all fit men have been returned to their regiments, and their places taken by the unfit. Rather hard luck isn’t it? Nell tells me that the fellows in your house has been home on his second leave. He is lucky, I d’ont [sic] expect

3

another for some time yet, as we have chaps in our lot that have not been home for over 12 months, and they are to go first.

I had a line from Ma the other day, and she seems to be getting on alright.

Well, Will, I have tons to tell you which I cannot write in a letter

4

so I must wait & hope for another leave, so I will conclude wishing you & Doll the best of health & luck.

Your Affec. Brother

Alf

P.S. Excuse scribble as I am absolutely frozen.

[MBrockway]

Transferred across from one of our other Topics ...

(Edit by Mark - I've added notes ¹, ², ³ and ⁴ which cross-reference down to my later comments)
Guys,
As outlined in the other thread I agree it is highly unlikely they are the same man.

And just to clarify....I think the East Surreys man is the imposter (and a younger relative possibly his brother Percy)....not the Essex man. I acknowledge this is in no way comprehensive, but my rationale is as follows:

• Percy was the right age to fudge an underage enlistment in 1912 into East Surreys (born 1898).
• There are two attestations with details differing. ⁴
• The description of each man differs considerably. Whilst these are not completely at odds....might they be two different men?
• The name and address of the employer has been gotten wrong....twice....are these transcription errors or a lack of knowledge of correct details? ³
• Percy was of age to serve, but no record of him serving in WW1.
• The East Surreys man gets his own Date of Birth wrong when a PW in 1917...twice...in very short order. Very odd.
• There is no record whatsoever of Alf after the East Surreys man comes home in 1918.
• Percy appears to have survived (dying in 1952) and it appears unlikely he is any of the other men who served OS under Percy Elson according to MICs.
• Photo of Essex man is named by the family as 'Uncle Alf'.
• Family possess Alf's Death Plaque indicating it was more likely Alf who died....not someone else.
• Next of Kin for the Essex Alf listed is his closest brother William's address (wife). ¹
• Letter from Essex Alf to his brother William is signed off 'Your affectionate brother Alf'.
• The family would no longer have reason to hide a dead man's real identity. ²
• The family may well have had cause to hide the real identity of a survivor....who had used a false name. ²

Rgds

Tim D

Ditto ...

Tim,
I agree and gave pretty much the same list to Mary in an exchange of e-mails off the Board last night!

One additional factor for your list ...

• POW 'Alf' from the 1st East Surreys appears in formal posed studio photographs with the brother William Elson, ASC from March 1918. Far more likely that Percy or Frank (the youngest brother) would do that, than a cousin.

Nevertheless, despite my money now being on Percy, I'm still chasing down evidence to corroborate or destroy all three of our scenarios, viz. they are the same man; the second Alf is Percy; the second Alf is a cousin.
Mark

... and a wee bit more ...

Tim,
Few points arising from the above ...

Most important - ¹ in the Red Cross POW records, Essex Alf gives 'Miss Frost' at the address of his maternal uncle, Frederick Oscar Frost, NOT that of his brother William Elson and sister-in-law Florence (nee Bird). That's the main reason I'm still looking at the cousins on the Frost (Alf's mother's) side of the family.

When Will, Alf and Percy's father died in 1900, their widowed mother, Alice Kate Elson (nee Frost), appears to have been taken in by Frederick Frost while the children were all dispersed around the rest of the extended family, or (for Will and Alf) to the parish's District School. Good reason perhaps to presume 'Miss Frost' is actually his mother c/o her brother, Alf's uncle.

Next, ² Mary has now explained to me that the reason the true story has been lost to her generation is because William & Florence Elson (her grandparents) moved to Leigh-on-Sea and lost touch with the London family.

Lastly ³ the errors about Arthur Dupree etc in the Surrey Recruitment Registers on FMP are almost certainly due to transcription mistakes, and ⁴ the different attestation dates for East Surreys Alf are because he initially enlisted into the Special Reserve and only later converted to a standard Regular.

I ought to copy all this into the main Topic!

Mark

[MBrockway]

Also copied over from another of our Topics ...

Bootneck - do you have dates for Alf's time at the Machine Gun school? Do you know if it was the school at Grantham or somewhere In Theatre?

Lastly anything specific about him rejoining the battalion after hospital in Jun 1915?

Certainly very difficult for a man still in the East Surreys in Jun 1915 to land with the 11/Essex on 30 Aug 1915, be attending MG School as an East Surrey soldier in late 1916 and then be Killed In Action with the 11/Essex on 22 Apr 1917.

Cheers,

Mark

Mark

He returned from MG School 1 January 1917 & went to Brigade Bombing School 3 March 1917.

Bootneck

[jay dubaya]

I'm struggling to understand why there are no memorial NoK details for the Essex Alf, the family have contacted the authorities with regards to his grave but yet the CWGC hold no details of NoK, is it not unusual that a concerned family who have made contact regarding a casualty provide no details for his memorial? However I too think that Essex Alf is the 'real deal' and like Tim the finger points to Percy as being the East Surrey Alf. Whichever Alf attested in 1912 they fibbed about their age.

[Blackblue]

I guess there was plenty of that mate....grief does strange things. Maybe thought little point of providing details if no known grave? They may also probably assumed the Army knew who the NOK were from Service Papers and the correspondence.

TD

[jay dubaya]

I see your point Tim and agree but none the less still find it odd that no NoK details are provided, Ive had a look online for Battersea/Wandsworth memorials but nothing much is available online in that direction

[MBrockway]

I'm struggling to understand why there are no memorial NoK details for the Essex Alf, the family have contacted the authorities with regards to his grave but yet the CWGC hold no details of NoK, is it not unusual that a concerned family who have made contact regarding a casualty provide no details for his memorial? However I too think that Essex Alf is the 'real deal' and like Tim the finger points to Percy as being the East Surrey Alf. Whichever Alf attested in 1912 they fibbed about their age.

A quick 'straw poll' on my KRRC database (sourced from CWGC) shows over 40% of the records have no next of kin details.

[jay dubaya]

Thanks for that Mark, I must admit to be suprised by such a high figure.

[MBrockway]

Copied across ...

Cheers Mark,

In your point 4 I mean that the details recorded during each of the attestations appear to differ (not the dates).

Understood it is SR then Regular.

TD

[Blackblue]

I would have said even more across the board. Do some random Bns and have a look how many are missing. Maybe they didn't predict clowns like us would be looking up their rellies on the Internet in 100 years time!

[MBrockway]

Maybe they didn't predict clowns like us would be looking up their rellies on the Internet in 100 years time!

[Mary Robinson]

We'd like to thank everyone for their responses to what we initially thought would be a fairly innocuous enquiry but turned out to be an amazing journey, which has turned up fascinating family information which had been long lost. We've been staggered by the interest and enormous amount of time and patience that have gone into your researches. On balance, we have pretty much settled on Percy being the likely cuckoo in the East Surrey nest. We hope to follow up the lead which threw up in a family tree on Amazon to maybe learn more.

Sincere thanks again. You've done a marvellous job for us.

Kind regards,

Mary

[jay dubaya]

Mary please do keep us informed, it's threads like this one that I find greatly rewarding, and may you have good luck in your continued search/journey

Jon