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Remembered Today:

Cap badge identification please


Mary Robinson

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... He had a brother, Alfred Victor Elson, born 1896, who was killed in April 1917 and who was in the Essex regiment when he died. We were hoping to clarify whether it is Fred in the photos. From what you have discovered it is looking less likely than I had hoped now.

M

There's an MIC and a Silver War Badge roll entry for a Pte. Alfred Victor ELSON, L/10571, East Surrey Regt, enlisted 08 Nov 1912 (so a pre-War regular in 1st or 2nd battalion, as also demonstrated by his 'L' prefix), embarked 16 Aug 1914, discharged 29 Jun 1918 due to Wounds.

2/East Surreys did not embark until Jan 1915, so he must have been in 1st Battalion, East Surrey Regt (14th Bde, 5th Division, then 95th Bde, 5th Divn from Jan 1916).

His MIC is annotated in manuscript with what could be either 'P.O.W.' or 'D.O.W.' I can find no record of this soldier in the CWGC List of the Fallen, but there is a record for him in the Red Cross POW lists giving his Date of Birth 26 Oct 1894 in Battersea, London, Next of Kin as Miss Frost, 36 Parkham Street, Battersea. He appears to have been captured in the ARLEUX/OPPY area on 08 May 1917 with rifle bullet wounds in the left buttock/hip and left upper arm. He was in POW Camp at LIMBURG AN DER LAHN on 11 Aug 1917, then at HAMELN (=Hamelin) on 25 Aug 1917. He was repatriated due to the severity of his wounds and admitted to King George Hospital, Stamford Street, London SE1 on 23 Feb 1918. (His ICRC repatriation record is mis-filed as R51155 - it's actually R51157).

I also found an MIC and SWB roll entry for a Pte Alfred ELSON, M/349111, Army Service Corps, enlisted 12 Dec 1915, discharged due to sickness 04 Oct 1918. Like William Elson, this chap may also have been mobilised later.

There's also an MIC for the man you mention, Pte Alfred Victor ELSON, 3/2814, 11th Bn., Essex Regiment, embarked in France 30 Aug 1915, killed in action 22 Apr 1917, of Wandsworth.

Given that the man in your photo is a pre-War regular in the East Surrey Regt and given Pte. Alfred Victor ELSON, L/10571, 1st Bn. East Surrey Regt, has connections to Battersea, how confident are you in identifying your grandfather's brother Fred as Alfred Victor ELSON, 3/2814, 11th Bn., Essex Regiment, who fell in 1917? Do any of Alfred Victor Elson, L/10571's details match your great uncle Fred?

Cheers,

Mark

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A preliminary search for a service record for William a few weeks ago came up blank so news that there is one is exciting. I'll go back to the drawing board on that one! Would he have been in uniform prior to his mobilisation then? If not the window for the photos would have been very tight given that Fred was killed in April 1917.

William made it to France as we have a few postcards. One of the Moulin Rouge and another of a place called the 'Sugar House' which was his HQ for a while.

How best to obtain the service records for both boys? Do I need to subscribe to one of the family history websites or would I do better to go through National Archives if that is possible?

Many thanks,

M

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Mark - Thanks thanks for all the information above which I have only just read. Interestingly the 'Sugar House' which I have just mentioned is atat Arleux! The papers are all jumbled together and we had assumed the Arleux connection was to do with William. There is an old newspaper including a photo of a Private Ellison being repatriated from Belgium in early 1918 which I will look at again in fresh light.

M

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As regards your Great Uncle Fred, there appears to be TWO soldiers with the name Alfred Victor ELSON.

A. Pte Alfred Victor ELSON, 3/2814, 11th Bn., Essex Regiment, KiA 22 Apr 1917

B. Pte. Alfred Victor ELSON, L/10571, 1st Bn., East Surrey Regiment. Pre-War Regular and repatriated POW.

'B' fits the photo extremely well, has Next of Kin in Battersea and matches your family documents about a repatriated POW, however the Date of Birth in his POW records does not seem to match with Fred's age in the 1911 Census. 'A' is the man you mention as William's brother, and is from Wandsworth (close to Battersea) but in no other respect does he fit the information.

Is it possible that you have the wrong Alfred Victor ELSON and your great uncle was not KiA with the Essex Regt?

Here are the links to the source material, some of which will require subscriptions or one-off payments. See what you think.

A1. Pte Alfred Victor ELSON, 3/2814, 11th Bn., Essex Regiment

A2. MIC
Ancestry (subscription req'd):
http://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?indiv=1&db=MedalRolls&rank=1&new=1&MSAV=1&gss=angs-d&gsfn_x=NN&gsln=elson&gsln_x=XO&_F00061C3=essex&dbOnly=_F00061C3|_F00061C3_x%2c_F8007A65|_F8007A65_x&uidh=qzc&pcat=39&fh=0&h=56006&recoff=11&ml_rpos=1
National Archive (pay to download):
http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/D6394496


A3. Service Record
Ancestry (subscription req'd): NOT FOUND

His service number of 3/2814 suggests an enlistment into 3/Essex approx Aug 1914. 3/Essex were a reserve battalion from which he would have been later posted into a fighting battalion.
See Pal Paul Nixon's SN blog here:
http://armyservicenumbers.blogspot.co.uk/2009/07/essex-regiment-3rd-special-reserve.html

A4. Death Records (KiA 22 Apr 1917)
SDGW via Ancestry (subscription req'd):
http://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?indiv=1&db=UKsoldiersGreatWar&rank=1&new=1&MSAV=1&gss=angs-d&gsfn_x=NN&gsln=Elson&gsln_x=XO&dbOnly=_F0005787|_F0005787_x%2c_F0007D22|_F0007D22_x%2c_F0007D21|_F0007D21_x%2c_F0007CF4|_F0007CF4_x%2c_F0007D1B|_F0007D1B_x%2c_F8007A65|_F8007A65_x&_F0007CF4=essex&uidh=qzc&pcat=39&fh=0&h=224537&recoff=9&ml_rpos=1
CWGC record:

http://www.cwgc.org/find-war-dead/casualty/2941960/ELSON,%20ALFRED%20VICTOR

B1. Pte. Alfred Victor ELSON, L/10571, East Surrey Regt

B2. MIC
Ancestry (subscription req'd):
http://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?indiv=1&db=MedalRolls&rank=1&new=1&MSAV=1&msT=1&gss=angs-d&gsfn=Alfred&gsfn_x=NN&gsln=elson&gsln_x=XO&dbOnly=_F00061C3%7c_F00061C3_x%2c_F8007A65%7c_F8007A65_x&uidh=qzc&pcat=39&fh=3&h=56007&recoff=9+11&ml_rpos=4
National Archive (pay to download):
http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/D6394497


B3. Service Record
Ancestry (subscription req'd): NOT FOUND

B4. Silver War Badge & Discharge

Roll Ref E/610/1 (Hounslow). Badge No 422735
Ancestry (subscription req'd):
http://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?indiv=1&db=SilverWarBadgeMedals&rank=1&new=1&MSAV=1&msT=1&gss=angs-d&gsfn_x=NN&gsln=elson&gsln_x=XO&dbOnly=_F8007A65|_F8007A65_x%2c_F00061C3|_F00061C3_x%2c_F000678D|_F000678D_x%2c_F8006879|_F8006879_x&_F8006879=518789&uidh=qzc&pcat=39&fh=9&h=253718&recoff=&ml_rpos=10


B5. ICRC POW Records
Limburg Camp: http://grandeguerre.icrc.org/en/File/Zoom/E/04/01/C_G1_E_04_01_0069/C_G1_E_04_01_0069_0060.JPG/
Hameln Camp: http://grandeguerre.icrc.org/en/File/Zoom/E/04/01/C_G1_E_04_01_0071/C_G1_E_04_01_0071_0149.JPG/
Repatriation: http://grandeguerre.icrc.org/en/File/Zoom/E/01/03/C_G1_E_01_03_0007/C_G1_E_01_03_0007_0009.JPG/

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I think Mark has nailed it Mary. Everything fits the other man, including badges, good conduct chevrons, address and POW.

Rgds

Tim D

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I can't see the ASC cap badge nor would I say that he's got 'greasy' buttons, they're definately black. I'd clocked the MIC for Alfred Victor Elson L10571 and also maybe another relative James C Elson L10606, both embarked on same date for 1st Battalion, then served with the Northants and then Labour Corps

post-15439-0-54490400-1411992010_thumb.j

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I think the only think we can potentially agree on is that it's a star shape without a scroll. I don't think it's clear enough to say with confidence it's not ASC. I still think it might be some sort of East Surreys anomaly! The grease comment was a joke.......they are obviously plain black.

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William's buttons do not seem to have the strung hunting horn moulding that is usually (but not always) visible on rifles buttons. His buttons seem much smoother and a bit larger ...

Blackened Rifles buttons William's buttons
post-20192-0-58631800-1412000492_thumb.j post-20192-0-06982800-1412000503_thumb.j

I suspect they could be the compressed leather 'football' buttons, used mid war to save on metal ...
post-20192-0-35117800-1412000599_thumb.j
[picture courtesy of Pal ]

Here's a picture of 193 Coy of the Army Service Corps Motor Transport Section on guard in Bristol, the chap on the left has standard brass GS buttons, the other has the compressed leather style ...
post-20192-0-34286000-1412000621_thumb.j
[picture courtesy of Paul Townsend - see Flickr https://www.flickr.com/photos/brizzlebornandbred/5151158305/]

Here's another ASC group also showing both types of buttons ...
post-20192-0-08081200-1412000674_thumb.j
[picture courtesy of thardy1 - see Flickr https://www.flickr.com/photos/14684508@N02/15063239826/]

There are two even clearer examples of pairs of ASC soldiers side-by-side with the two styles of buttons in Chris Macdonald's (Pal @4thGordons) excellent 'I-Spy Guide' to photo interpretation, published for private circulation a few years back - but I know Chris had a lot of trouble with his images being misused without his permission, so I'm not going to reproduce these here.

Certainly I'm a lot more comfortable with an ASC man have 'darker' buttons now.

HTH

Mark



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Well I like it. ASC for me. I think the only other unit remotely close is Devons.

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... I'd clocked the MIC for Alfred Victor Elson L10571 and also maybe another relative James C Elson L10606, both embarked on same date for 1st Battalion, then served with the Northants and then Labour Corps

Just in case Mary misunderstands this, it was only James Charles ELSON, L/10606, 1st Bn. East Surrey Regt, who was transferred into the Northants Regt and then the Labour Corps. Alfred Victor ELSON was with the East Surreys right through to his capture in May 1917 and his subsequent repatriation and discharge.

James enlisted on 03 Jan 1913 and was discharged from the Labour Corps with a Silver War Badge due to Wounds on 04 Jul 1917. James' MIC mentions 'Transfer 15 Mar 1917' but not whether this was East Surreys to Northants Regt, or Northants Regt to Labour Corps.

I agree with Jon - such close enlistment dates strongly point to Alfred Victor Elson and James Charles Elson being relatives.

Mary - any sign of a James Charles Elson in your family tree?

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Thanks for all this excellent stuff today, particularly the record links which will save us loads of time moving forward.

A couple of bits for completion:

William's exemption certificate to cover employment with an engineering company between 30 January 1917 and 03 March 1917 indicates War Service Badge number J(?)6659

There are two copies of a Daily Mirror cover dated 27 February 1918 with a photo of 'Private Ellson' captioned 'Just back from Holland'. He has a label on a string round his neck plus a second placard captioned 'God bless you all. Neutral Holland's thoughts and heartiest wishes follow you back to your mother country'. The smiling soldier is headed 'The Blighty Smile'.

I am pretty convinced that the chap in the photo with William is the East Surrey Alfred. The spanner in the works is that we have the bronze death penny for Alfred Victor Elson, brother of William. So, how on earth did William come to be photographed with a second Alfred Victor Elson?

M

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The spanner in the works is that we have the bronze death penny for Alfred Victor Elson, brother of William. So, how on earth did William come to be photographed with a second Alfred Victor Elson?

M

Glad to help Mary!

Could you possibly post the exact inscription from the 'Death Penny' here on the Forum? Certainly looks like there's still a story to uncover!

My investigations into births for Alfred Victor Elsons only turned up two -

ELSON, Alfred Victor - Q4 1895, Wandsworth Reg District (RD)

ELSON, Alfred Victor - Q2 1904, Cardiff RD

The Alfred born in Cardiff would definitely be too young.

The Alfred who was a POW is recorded in the Red Cross database as born in Battersea, London.

I need to start hunting for the various variant spellings methinks. Alternatively the other Alfred Elson may have been born overseas.

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Intrigue and confusion, Like Mark says could you post the details of the 'Death Penny' and any other details you may have Mary. From what I can see for the Battersea man there were 4 brothers on the 1911 census, William George 17, Alfred Victor 15, Percy Arthur 13 and Frank Valentine 11. Can I assume I have the right family?

Jon

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Glad to see your posts, thought you may have been put off! Looking back over my postings I notice that the family name has appeared as Ellison. I use my tablet sometimes and it has a bizarre autocorrect which sometimes kicks in for some reason. I have only ever seen Elson or Ellson for the family name.

Perhaps unusually, we are not coming at this on the back of wider family history research so background details are sketchy. Although we were previously aware of the 1901 census, the 1911 information is a revelation with two younger brothers a complete surprise.

Pretty sure the death Penny just has the name but will check. Also still checking out whether James Elson is linked.

M

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Mary - in case you weren't aware, the Wandsworth Registration District includes Battersea.

To further muddy the waters, there's also an MIC for a Quartermaster Captain A ELSON in the Army Service Corps, with a SWB roll Ref OFF/2358, Badge 518789 14619/1/B. Unfortunately the SWB Officers' Roll does not give enlistment/commissioning dates nor discharge dates.

It looks like he was also a pre-War Regular - the 1915 Hart's Army List has him in the ASC as a Quartermaster & Honorary Lieutenant with seniority dating from 24 Mar 1909 but no date for Honorary Captain. Since 'Captain' are 'Lieutenant' here are Honorary ranks, I'm not sure whether they'll be gazetted.

I mention him because his address is 21 Balham Park Road, London SW12, just the other side of 'The Junction' and not that far from SW11 plus he was in the ASC.

There must be a fair chance he is another relative of yours Mary, and he could be a reason why your grandfather William went into the ASC. There does seem to be a tradition of engineering in the family.

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I did I hunt a few days ago on FreeBMD for a Death Register entry for Alfred Victor Elson from 1914 to 1973 (the latest possible) and no clear hits. Found lots of Alfreds and Freds, but again none in Wandsworth RD. There was a Fred Elson death registered in Hastings RD - he was in his 70's if I recall. I haven't looked for ElLsons or Ellisons yet.

I think I'll pause on the genealogical angle till we see what material Mary can provide. Don't want to spend a lot of time re-discovering stuff that she has already investigated.

The exact inscription on the Memorial Plaque would be useful to know, though of course it will only be the name - no Service Number or Unit. They would be on the scroll, but Mary's not mentioned that, so I suspect the family don't have it.

Also whether any of the men's medals have survived, and if they have, then the exact inscription thereon.

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If 'Battersea Alfred' is the East Surrey Alfred, I'm afraid not here (I see scope for confusion on my part as to who is who if I'm not careful!)

M

'Battersea' Alfred is my 'B.' Pte. Alfred Victor ELSON, L/10571, 1st Bn., East Surrey Regiment. Pre-War Regular and repatriated POW.

My 'A.' Pte Alfred Victor ELSON, 3/2814, 11th Bn., Essex Regiment, KiA 22 Apr 1917, that Mary is reporting as her Great Uncle, has his Birth, Residence and Place of Enlistment all as 'Wandsworth' on SDGW. Trouble is Battersea is in the Wandsworth Registration District. From 1855 to 1888 Battersea was part of the Metropolitan District of Wandsworth, only becoming the separate again as a Civil Parish on the formation of the London County Council in 1888. This AV Elson may well have been close to Battersea as well!

I suggest we differentiate them using their service numbers?

The Elson 'clan' seem to be centred on this part of SW London/Surrey - I've just found two further Elson casualties on CWGC from Wimbledon and Godalming respectively.

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Have we a date of death for the Battersea Alfred?

Jon - are you also speculating that AV Elson L/10571 might also have died - after discharge but due to his wounds and therefore eligible for the Memorial Plaque? And not detectable in CWGC due to one of the indexing anomalies?

That's certainly one of my scenarios :-)

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