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Remembered Today:

Cap badge identification please


Mary Robinson

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Jon - are you also speculating that AV Elson L/10571 might also have died - after discharge but due to his wounds and therefore eligible for the Memorial Plaque? And not detectable in CWGC due to one of the indexing anomalies?

That's certainly one of my scenarios :-)

I'm thinking along those lines and I suspect the Death Penny carries the name Alfred Victor Elson

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Made a start of the genealogy, though no luck yet with finding the second Alfred Victor Elson. The detail below uses Mary's grandfather William George ELSON (who was in the ASC) as the point of reference.

SUBJECT

ELSON, William George - b. 1894

Wife: Florence Alice BIRD.

Marriage: 22 Dec 1914

SIBLINGS

ELSON, Alice Rosetta - b.1892, Wandsworth (named for her uncle's wife), baptised: 11 Sep 1892, St Stephen, Wandsworth

-, William George - b.1894, Wandsworth [= The Subject, Mary's grandfather], baptised: 04 Apr 1894

-, Alfred Victor - b. 1896, Battersea

-, Percy Arthur - b. 1898, Battersea

-, Frank Valentine - b. 1900, Battersea

PARENTS

ELSON, George Isaac - b. 1873, Wandsworth. d. 1900, Wandsworth RD

FROST, Alice Kate - b. 1873 or 1874, Battersea, baptised (as adult): 09 Oct 1892, St Stephen, Wandsworth

[Note: The Red Cross POW records for Pte. Alfred Victor ELSON, L/10571, East Surrey Regt list his Next of Kin as "Miss Frost, 36 Parkham Street, Battersea" - possibly an unmarried maternal aunt? or maternal grandmother?]

Possible Stepfather: Widowed young at 26/27yrs, Alice may have married a second time to a George M SAMPSON in Q3 1915 in Wandsworth RD.

PATERNAL UNCLES/AUNTS

ELSON, William - b. 1865, baptised: 15 Jan 1865, All Saints, Wandsworth

-, Alfred James - b. ~1870; m. Alice Rosetta WISE, 09 Sep 1893, St Anne, Wandsworth; children: ELSON, Edith Mabel, 1894,

-, George Isaac [= The Subject's father]- 1873-1900, baptised: 30 Nov 1873, St Anne, Wandsworth; m. Alice Kate FROST, 24 Jan 1892, St Philip, Battersea; children - see 'Siblings' above; carpet fitter

-, Arthur - b. 03 Feb 1882; baptised:26 Mar 1882, St Stephen, Wandsworth

-, Anne/Annie Elizabeth - b. 1885, baptised: 19 May 1885, St Stephen, Wandsworth

PATERNAL GRANDPARENTS

ELSON, William - b. ~1844, Horsell, Surrey

???, Sarah - b. ~1845, Wimbledon

children - see 'Paternal Uncles/Aunts'

That's it so far. I have yet to research the maternal line and all the cousins. That's much harder, but of course, that's where we're potentially going to uncover the 'second' Alfred Victor Elson.

I've also found yet another Elson in the List of the Fallen who could be a relative if you discount the spelling difference.

Victor ELLISON, aged 32 yrs, died 05/06/1916,

Sergeant, Royal Marine Light Infantry, H.M.S. "Hampshire.", Service Number 'PO/13015'

Son of John and Emma Ellison, of 78, Knowsley Road, Battersea

This could be relevant once we get the exact inscription from the Death Penny.

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Many thanks Mark for your efforts above which in any case will give us a good start on the wider family tree stuff too.

We've spent a couple of hours here trawling through the family papers. I am attaching a few photos, one of which raised a smile given the protracted conversation about tunic buttons!

As there are so many strands on the go I have tried to pull out some points which seem pertinent at this stage:

We have a paper relating to the death of W and A's brother Frank Valentine so no doubt that you have the correct family.

The penny simply states Alfred Victor Elson. Only other feature is a tiny stamped 'W' on the rear. No scroll I'm afraid.

William George's birth certificate states dob as 14.01.1894 (died 09.05.1975 Southend)

L/10571 Alfred's dob appears to be 26.10.1894

Attached is a transcript of a faded letter, written in pencil, definitely from Alfred to William. No date. The address cites the Essex regiment. There is reference to 'Pete' who may be Peter Elson mentioned living nearby in the 1901 census as being age 3. If he was on active service at the time of Alfred's letter to William it pushes the probable date back to quite late in the war maybe, due to his age.

The Sugar House mentioned in previous posts definitely relates to William and not Alfred (handwriting check)

There is mention on next of kin for L/10571 Alfred (POW records?) as 'Frost' - this was the boys' mother's maiden name.

The boys' father died in 1900 which may explain why the two younger brothers do not appear to be with the family on the 1901 census.

The most interesting for me is (also attached) a letter of response from the 'Director of Graves' to an enquiry from Miss F Elson, 62 Gwynne Road about the whereabouts of Private A Elson's grave. Her letter was dated 05 December 1918 and the reply is dated 08 January 1919.

There is also a poor quality photo annotated 'Uncle Alf' on the rear, although this has been added much more recently.

Phew, I need some tea!

M

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!st War letter Alf to Will.docx

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We have a paper relating to the death of W and A's brother Frank Valentine so no doubt that you have the correct family.

There's a Death registered in Surrey Mid Eastern RD for Percy A ELSON in Q3 1952.

William George's birth certificate states dob as 14.01.1894 (died 09.05.1975 Southend)

L/10571 Alfred's dob appears to be 26.10.1894

Are sure on the year of Alfred's birth? That would have the two brothers only just over 9 months apart. My researches point to 1896 for Alfred.

The most interesting for me is (also attached) a letter of response from the 'Director of Graves' to an enquiry from Miss F Elson, 62 Gwynne Road about the whereabouts of Private A Elson's grave. Her letter was dated 05 December 1918 and the reply is dated 08 January 1919.

William George Elson and his wife Florence Alice Elson lived at 62 Gwynne Road, Battersea (this is in his Service Record). I suspect this letter is actually to Florence. The Alfred Victor Elson, 3/2814, 11th Bn., Essex Regiment, KiA 22 Apr 1917, has no known grave, so a letter like this is standard. Can you tell us what's in the illegible sentence obscured by the shadow of the fold? Ironically that's probably the key sentence and we cannot read it!

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Now I thought the 1894 birth year had originated in the forum. I must have noted it down incorrectly. Sorry about that as it's pretty important.

Thanks for dod for Percy, another loose end tied!

I agree that Miss F is almost certainly Mrs F enquiring on behalf of her husband. The creased sentence reads:

'has not yet been located, but your enquiry has been noted and I will write to you again...'

M

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Could well be Essex Regt Mary. Is there a chance of a better high res scan?

Rgds

Tim D

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Yep. Zooming in on the high res scan and even I can see what looks like the castle towers on a Essex badge! Also, a little boy has come to light peering through the fence behind them. Unfortunately I am unable to crop the file to post on here (despite everyone's best advice) so I will forward it to Jon and hope that he can come up with something to post.

Many thanks

M

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Now I thought the 1894 birth year had originated in the forum. I must have noted it down incorrectly. Sorry about that as it's pretty important.

M

Here are his Red Cross German Ministry of War (Kriegs-Ministerium) camp records ...

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Limburg POW Camp -

List sent by Camp: Jul 1917, Received by Kriegs-Ministerium: 04 Aug 1917. Forwarded to ICRC by Kriegs-Ministerium: 11 Aug 1917. Received by ICRC: 11 Aug 1917

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Hameln POW Camp -

List sent by Camp: 16 Aug 1917, Received by Kriegs-Ministerium: 20 Aug 1917. Forwarded to ICRC by Kriegs-Ministerium: 25 Aug 1917. Received by ICRC: 27 Aug 1917

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[images ©2014 International Committee of the Red Cross. See hyperlinks in post above for source documents]

Cell 6a in the top right corner of each row is the Date and Place of Birth. Alfred seems to have given '26 Oct 1894 London' the first time and then '21 Dec 1893 London' the second time. Neither date may be reliable given he was very seriously wounded at the time.

The Next of Kin detail is in 6b-c and is consistent as 'Miss Frost 36 Parkham St, Battersea, London' though we should probably keep an open mind about 'Miss' vs 'Mrs'

Cells 4a-c give his Regiment, Battalion and Company - 'C Coy, 1st Bn., East Surrey Regiment'

Cell 2c gives his Service Number - '10571'. Ignore the stuff in the headings about 'For Russians only: Father's Forename'!

Cell 5a is the Date and Place of Capture - '08 May 1917' ARLEUX then OPPY, which, as you know, are close to each other.

5b is the detail on his injuries - I translated those higher up the thread.

5c is his Previous Whereabouts - at 'The Front', then a military hospital ('Reserve-Lazarett') at TOURNAI. Not sure whether a German Reserve-Lazarett corresponds to a Casualty Clearing Station or a Base Hospital. It was definitely out of the immediate battlezone, but still close to the Front in the Reserve area - probably most similar to our CCS. Other Pals can correct.

All this seems to tie up well with your family documents/newspaper clippings about a repatriated POW and activities in the Arleux/Oppy area, as well as with the Battersea FROSTs, your Great Grandmother's family, and seem to link your Great Uncle Fred to Pte. Alfred Victor ELSON, L/10571, 1st Bn., East Surrey Regiment. Pre-War Regular and repatriated POW.

Mark

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Yep. Zooming in on the high res scan and even I can see what looks like the castle towers on a Essex badge! Also, a little boy has come to light peering through the fence behind them. Unfortunately I am unable to crop the file to post on here (despite everyone's best advice) so I will forward it to Jon and hope that he can come up with something to post.

Many thanks

M

Anything on the back of the photo if you carefully tease it out of its frame?

PS I sent you by PM some info on the family history that wasn't relevant to the military angle - my e-mail addy is in the message, but I'm away most of the rest of today!

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This thread has certainly deepened with intrigue. The latest photo from Mary clearly shows a man with an Essex Rgt cap badge (Sphinx and castle very clear, there's also 2 children in the background) and this is certainly not the same man as the East Surrey one. The above 'grave enquiry' appears in the name of Pte A Elson which stronly suggests it's for the Essex Rgt. Alfred. I'm now begining to wonder if we have a younger brother enlisting with an older brothers name, as yet I've not looked for any military service for the two younger brothers. The Daily Mirror clipping has the East Surrey Pte Elson which fits with the PoW Alfred.

Mary, I can tell you that William George served with the 62nd Company ASC which saw wartime service with the Fourth Army on the Western Front as the 44th Auxiliary (Steam) Company they have a War Diary in the National Archives at Kew filed under WO95/513 but sadly not yet digitised.

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They obviously can't be the same man, but there is certainly a likeness. Maybe the brother theory does have some merit.

Rgds

Tim D

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There's a lot of interesting material on the ASC Mechanical Transport section Steam companies, with useful hyperlinks to more, in this thread: Steam Traction Driver left his name

By cross-referencing each way between these two Topics, we might get some further info on William's time in the ASC repair shops that will be useful to Mary's wider family research.

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The ears, eyes and noses are very similar in all three men. I think theres certainly some weight to the Essex man being a younger brother. The service number 3/2814 for the Essex Rgt. Alfred would suggest an enlistment date of late September 1914 into the 3rd (Reserve) Battalion Essex Rgt. The service number L/10571 for the East SurreyRgt. Alfred would suggest an enlistment date of late 1912

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8 November 1912 for East Surrey man according to SWB record. Two GC Chevrons suggests his photo is after 8 November 1917, so the photo must be after his repatriation.

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Agreed, I note from above that there is a DoD for Percy Arthur so if the Essex man is a younger brother it would suggest it is Frank Valentine and would have been aged 15/16 years in September 1914

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There is a Frank Valentine Elson who died in London in 1950.

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There is a Frank Valentine Elson who died in London in 1950.

Ha! You beat me to it! Kensington RD.

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Got me stumped! These men do look terribly alike and I can only find the one family.

Father George Isaac Elson and mother Alice Kate Frost married 1892. Might they have had one out of wedlock?

I notice George appears to be off the scene by the time of 1901 Census?

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(Can't keep up with all of this today!)

George died in 1900 and the family appears to have been split up for a while.

M

Mary and I have researched the events of 1900-1901 off the board as they are private family history not relevant to a military history Forum. They do not impact the scenarios we are considering.

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