Phil Evans Posted 5 November , 2014 Share Posted 5 November , 2014 Tomo, There was nothing else that I could see on the Canadian and Australian war diary sites. I would like to get to Kew one Saturday in the next few weeks, for some other stuff. If I make it, I will make a start, probably with the early part of 63 Company initially. I see you've found a compatriot on your new thread. Another nice restoration job as well. Phil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tomo.T Posted 6 November , 2014 Author Share Posted 6 November , 2014 Phil, That would be great, thank you. I would be happy to reimburse your costs for that, I would also like to pick your brains about researching at Kew. Hedd asked me to post his enquiry re W /I\ E markings. Tomo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Evans Posted 6 November , 2014 Share Posted 6 November , 2014 Tomo, At the bottom is a link to my website. There is an email link on the Home Page. Just fire away with the questions from there. Phil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Evans Posted 6 January , 2015 Share Posted 6 January , 2015 Tomo, I'll post this here, in case there are more than just us two with an interest. I have finally had a quiet trawl through the 1914 diaries I photographed at Kew back in November and extracted all the relevant entries. Not that there are many, as you know. DO NOT read the 51 Company entry if you are at all sensitive! 63 (MT) Company - (3rd Divisional Supply Column) No mentions 62 (MT) Company – (2nd Divisional Ammunition Park) 25th August 1914 REUMONT Tractor and Workshop arrived. Started it working for repair of vehicles. Other tractors reported to be on their way. 26th August 1914 ...... Brought remainder of Park on to NAUROY, two and a half miles SW of ESTREES. Saw two tractors on their way to join me at MARETZ. Ordered the drivers to proceed at once back to ST QUENTIN via BUHAIN. These, with the tractor and workshop sent from REUMONT were supposed to have been captured with personnel. One arrived at NAUROY. ....... Went back to MARETZ to see if tractors had left. They were not to be seen. September 6th 1914 PERTHES Require one more Lorry Workshop. All mobilisation equipment and spares for vehicles lost on retreat with Tractors. 51 (MT) Company – (6th Divisional Ammunition Park) 26th August 1914 AMIENS I got temporary orders (to be confirmed later) to move to CREIL next morning at 6.00 am. DDT ordered me to disable any machine I could not bring with me – I luckily only had to smash up one traction engine. Phil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tomo.T Posted 7 January , 2015 Author Share Posted 7 January , 2015 Thanks for that Phil, It's good to see some mention of steam at last in the diaries. I think we can surmise that steam traction was not a great success in the forward areas and would have been mostly relegated to the rear echelons. Tomo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Maddy Posted 2 December , 2015 Share Posted 2 December , 2015 I wonder if anyone can help me trace my Grandfather's war record. On my father's birth certificate his profession is listed as Staff seargent ASC and the address was Northampton. I have this photo of him leaning against the front wheel of a traction engine. Other than this, I have no information. Is it possible to find out when, where he enlisted etc.? His name was Robert Vivian Bailey. Any help would be appreciated. Maddy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dai Bach y Sowldiwr Posted 2 December , 2015 Share Posted 2 December , 2015 Thanks for that Phil, It's good to see some mention of steam at last in the diaries. I think we can surmise that steam traction was not a great success in the forward areas and would have been mostly relegated to the rear echelons. Tomo. Yes, I often wonder about the role of steam. My GF was a steam traction engine driver when he signed up in December1915. He was called up in May 1916,and trained in MT at Grove Park. By the time he reached the front, he was driving caterpillars. That to me implies a realisation over that period that steam wasn't as efficient as the petrol engine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KevinBattle Posted 2 December , 2015 Share Posted 2 December , 2015 Hello and welcome, Maddy. Often it's easier to start a new topic, but I can see why you posted on here and there's a good chance you'll learn far, far more about the traction engine than you will about Robert!! To help others get started, this is his 1911 Census info: Name: Robert Vivian Bailey. Age in 1911: 28. Birth year: abt 1883. Birth Place: Croydon, Surrey Civil Parish: Kingsthorpe, Northamptonshire. Street address: 1 Birchfield Road, Northampton Marital Status: Single. Occupation: Aerated Motor Manufacturer. Robert Bailey 59; Robert Vivian Bailey, 28; Winifred Mary Bailey, 22 (no, I have no idea what an "aerated motor" is, but I'm sure we'll know in short order!) You probably know his birth was registered in 1st Qtr 1883 and that he died in 1940, not on CWGC so probably natural causes, Probate to widow Ellen Maria (nee Skinner) his mother? One partial Tree seems to mention wife "Nell" unknown? A Family Tree has his birth date as 11 December 1882, presumably you know Ruth? But.... I can't easily find a M2/ ASC man as Robert, Robert Vivivan; R or R V Bailey. He's not likely to be these Name: Robert Bailey. Regiment or Corps: Army Service Corps. Regimental Number: M2/119592. (Served in Africa; survived); or Name: Robert R Bailey. Regiment or Corps: Army Service Corps. Regimental Number: M2/188312 so it'll need more expert help than I can give at the moment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tomo.T Posted 7 December , 2015 Author Share Posted 7 December , 2015 I wonder if anyone can help me trace my Grandfather's war record. On my father's birth certificate his profession is listed as Staff seargent ASC and the address was Northampton. I have this photo of him leaning against the front wheel of a traction engine. Other than this, I have no information. Is it possible to find out when, where he enlisted etc.? His name was Robert Vivian Bailey. Any help would be appreciated. Maddy.Grandpa Bailey leaning on front wheel.jpg Hi Maddy, Interesting picture, I can tell you that the engine is a D2 Fowler general purpose traction engine. It appears to be attending the scene of an accident where a traction wagon has turned over and a baler is ditched. This could be a training exercise, but I notice a fair amount of non standard head gear among the crew which would indicate they are 'old sweats rather than trainees. I would guess the picture was taken in England where agricultural work was carried out by military crews during the Great War. Hope this helps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tomo.T Posted 7 December , 2015 Author Share Posted 7 December , 2015 Yes, I often wonder about the role of steam. My GF was a steam traction engine driver when he signed up in December1915. He was called up in May 1916,and trained in MT at Grove Park. By the time he reached the front, he was driving caterpillars. That to me implies a realisation over that period that steam wasn't as efficient as the petrol engine. Hello Dai Bach, Steam was still the prime mover for heavy loads and far more powerful than the early IC engines. the problem was smoke from the steam engines gave away their position to target hungry artillery observers. They were also slow to steam from cold (2 hrs) and not much good in deep mud so they were replaced by Holt and Foster Daimler tractors. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dai Bach y Sowldiwr Posted 7 December , 2015 Share Posted 7 December , 2015 Hello Dai Bach, Steam was still the prime mover for heavy loads and far more powerful than the early IC engines. the problem was smoke from the steam engines gave away their position to target hungry artillery observers. They were also slow to steam from cold (2 hrs) and not much good in deep mud so they were replaced by Holt and Foster Daimler tractors. Hi, Yes I agree. Poor choice of words by myself. I wasn't using "efficiency" in its true mathemetical/thermodynamic definition. I was substituting it for "flexibility" or "ease of use" or general "handiness". All the points you raise are the reasons that steam lost out to petrol during this period, a period when IC engine efficiency (in its true definition) was also improving dramatically. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KevinBattle Posted 7 December , 2015 Share Posted 7 December , 2015 Well, Maddy, it seems i was right about more details on the traction engine than your grandfather! In the absence of anything else, it'll come down to you doing a little extra digging to see if there are any family memories about where he served. For a survivor of WW1 it's often difficult to trace any Service, particularly if he was kept back in the UK perhaps by some physical impairment, skill etc... Local (to where he lived) newspaper archives may have something, especially if he was injured or involved in something noteworthy, or perhaps a brother...? Is the address on the birth certificate different to the 1911 census? Does it also include his Service Number or anything else that could be of help? Is there any photographer stamp or writing on the back of the photo? Sorry, but it may be that we haven't enough to help you in this case. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tomo.T Posted 5 February , 2016 Author Share Posted 5 February , 2016 I have come up with a ( half baked ) theory about the M1/ M2 prefixes for ASC drivers. Currently M2 is thought to be something to do with enlistment in the New armies, but nobody seems really sure. Both M1 and M2 seem to refer to 'Drivers Mechanical Transport' and there is no apparent difference between the grades. We know from information gleaned above, that when Grove Park in Lewisham outgrew itself as a driver training centre, an additional one was provided at Osterley Park in Hounslow. ASC Drivers were henceforth trained at both establishments for the remainder of the war. My thinking is that drivers trained at Grove Park were given M1 prefixes and the Osterely Park trainees were allotted M2 prefix. I have no evidence to back this up, except that all the Grove Park entrants I have seen mentioned so far have M1 prefix. Has anyone any further information/ ideas on this ? Tomo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GWF1967 Posted 5 February , 2016 Share Posted 5 February , 2016 My GGF (and Avatar) M2/100612 was a Grove Park man. 26/5/1915. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Evans Posted 5 February , 2016 Share Posted 5 February , 2016 Hello Tomo, DM2's were coming out of Grove Park as well. Phil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ss002d6252 Posted 5 February , 2016 Share Posted 5 February , 2016 I have come up with a ( half baked ) theory about the M1/ M2 prefixes for ASC drivers. Currently M2 is thought to be something to do with enlistment in the New armies, but nobody seems really sure. Both M1 and M2 seem to refer to 'Drivers Mechanical Transport' and there is no apparent difference between the grades. We know from information gleaned above, that when Grove Park in Lewisham outgrew itself as a driver training centre, an additional one was provided at Osterley Park in Hounslow. ASC Drivers were henceforth trained at both establishments for the remainder of the war. My thinking is that drivers trained at Grove Park were given M1 prefixes and the Osterely Park trainees were allotted M2 prefix. I have no evidence to back this up, except that all the Grove Park entrants I have seen mentioned so far have M1 prefix. Has anyone any further information/ ideas on this ? Tomo. Is it not an artefact of timing ? - thy started with M1 whilst there was only Grove Park -once this expanded men at new sites started using M1. They then later introduced M2 at a later date and men across all sites started using this number. It might be worth stating a specific thread so we can look in depth again at timings etc ( I have plenty of free time these days). Craig Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ss002d6252 Posted 5 February , 2016 Share Posted 5 February , 2016 A quick glance shows one obvious linkage in M1 men Craig Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tomo.T Posted 5 February , 2016 Author Share Posted 5 February , 2016 Yes Ok ! Theory demolished and head back below parapet. It came to me in a blinding flash of inspiration but clearly does not hold water. ( Bu66er! ) In that case it may be a different grade of qualification, there were a wide variety of vehicles available to military drivers, from cars and vans through lorries to tractors ( steam and caterpillar ) Mostly they are all similar beasts to drive with the exception of Steam powered vehicles, which are totally different and require separate skills to manage. Are we getting any warmer ? Tomo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tomo.T Posted 5 February , 2016 Author Share Posted 5 February , 2016 A quick glance shows one obvious linkage in M1 men Capture.JPG Craig Ah, That's interesting, I note that previously experienced drivers ,mechanics and fitters are all included. What about M2 ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ss002d6252 Posted 5 February , 2016 Share Posted 5 February , 2016 Ah, That's interesting, I note that drivers ,mechanics and fitters are all included. What about M2 ? I'm knocking up a spreadsheet - already showing some interesting points. I'll post a new thread later with the details. Craig Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Knotty Posted 5 February , 2016 Share Posted 5 February , 2016 Hi Tomo I have a driver who went out to France 13/8/1914 with a number CMT/157, how does that fit in with your observations. Just for the record he was with 57th Motor Transport Company,1st Cavalry Division, Divisional Supply Column, Army Service Corp. John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ss002d6252 Posted 5 February , 2016 Share Posted 5 February , 2016 A new thread on M1 & M2 enlistment - http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=236138. Hopefully it will shine some light on the prefixes. Craig Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tomo.T Posted 5 February , 2016 Author Share Posted 5 February , 2016 Hi Tomo I have a driver who went out to France 13/8/1914 with a number CMT/157, how does that fit in with your observations. Just for the record he was with 57th Motor Transport Company,1st Cavalry Division, Divisional Supply Column, Army Service Corp. John Hi John, From the LLT the C prefix indicates the man had previously joined the Special Reserve of the ASC as an experienced driver. 1/57 is not his number but an abreviation of his unit. Tomo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Knotty Posted 5 February , 2016 Share Posted 5 February , 2016 Hi Tomo I was aware he was a special reserve, having been recorded in the 1911 Census as an omnibus driver in London. Prior to that he had served with the Sherwood Foresters (some 10 years previous) and he re-enlisted in the ASC as a private .What I cannot fathom is that CMT/157 is engraved on his medal trio and in all subsequent documentation I have seen, service record etc., including his Gazetted MID, as well as his promotions through to sergeant. Should he have a number as per your observation, and If so where can I find out? John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tomo.T Posted 5 February , 2016 Author Share Posted 5 February , 2016 Oh right, I was thrown by the very short No. they were usually at least 4 digits. I suppose this could have been a very early one which he somehow kept when he re enlisted ? Was he perhaps held on reserve rather than re enlisted ? Tomo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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