Steam Traction Driver left his name.

20 October , 2014

Ok Mark,

This seems to be a good example of a qualified steam fitter being fast tracked through the system at Grove Park. He would have been assessed on arrival and must have convinced them he could do the job, as he is posted on to Norwood in 5 days ! A few weeks later he finds himself in France." Your feet won't even touch the ground lad".

As a steam fitter in a repair base workshop he would have enjoyed a fairly "cushy number" compared with most.

In the 1911 Census William Elson is listed as Engineer Fitter employed by a Boilermaker. His brother Alf, who went into the infantry and was KiA, as Engineer Shaper also for a Boilermaker.

William's attestation form from Dec 1915 has his trade as Engineer Fitter.

In 1911 the brothers were living about 200yds from the Stewart's Lane railway motive power depot and the Longhedge railway works. No direct evidence to connect them there though, and I daresay there were road-going steam traction workshops within striking distance also.

Edited 20 October , 2014 by MBrockway

20 October , 2014

I've followed this thread with great interest because of a relative who was a driver in the ASC. He was Frederick J Farrance, number M1017, later MV020420, who enlisted at Colchester on 24 September 1914 as an engine driver. He was posted to Aldershot and then Woolwich Dockyard where he drove 'steam engines'.

There are few records of his service in the ASC, but in February 1917, he was transferred to the 62nd Training Reserve Battalion at Kinmel Park and then posted to the Manchester Regt, number 50703, in France until demobilisation in 1919. However it is believed that he drove steam traction engines in France but no record of this has been found. I'm still searching for information about him.

In 1922 he enlisted for Section D Army Reserve. During the 1920s his civilian job was a steam engine road roller driver.

TARA

21 October , 2014

Hi TARA,

Thanks for your interest, Fred was quite 'steamy' then ! His posting to the Manchesters is maybe an exception and could have been the result of a trawl for fit soldiers to go to the front, there being plenty of downgraded replacements to take over the home jobs. See Ralph Miller interviews above. Post #23

Tomo

21 October , 2014

Tomo,

Yes Fred was in steam all his working life. When 'steam rollers' were replaced by diesel rollers he became a boilerman.

I have no photos of his ASC steam engines but this one of his steam roller that was owned by Essex County Council.

21 October , 2014

Nice one ! That's a 6 or 8 ton Aveling and Porter SC piston valve roller if you didn't know. It has a brace fitted to the headstock casting, which was probably cracked by bumping into something. The cast iron headstocks were rather fragile !

Edit. You may like to know this engine, No. 11315 ( built 1925 ) still exists and is preserved and rallied in roller form. I will try and find more details.

Tomo

21 October , 2014

Tomo,

I'm sure that his family would be interested in any information you find.

What and where is the headstock?

TARA

21 October , 2014

Headstock is the large casting at the front of the boiler which supports the front rolls.

Tomo

21 October , 2014

Could this by any chance be Grove Park ? Do you recognise those chimneys Phil ? Caption reads ASC Steam Section class under instruction. Demonstrating the Injector. ( A device for replenishing boiler water whilst in steam. ) The actual caption reads Demonstrating the ' inspector 'but is clearly a typo for the above. A Foden 5 ton Steam Wagon simmers gently behind the class.

Edited 27 October , 2014 by Tomo.T

21 October , 2014

Tomo,

You haven't given me much to go on. The roof line would have been nice.

At first I thought it might have been the rear of Catford Bus Garage, on Bromley Road, but the roof line is wrong for either the main building of the garage, or the pair of adjacent houses (Zetlands being one of them).

Grove Park itself, which was the old workhouse, was pretty tightly packed in with permanent buildings. Views of the internal areas are hard to come by, but I have never seen anything that looks like those workshop buildings. Having said that, the roofs, top left of the photo, are very much of the same design.

The conclusion at the moment then, is I don't know.

Phil

21 October , 2014

Ok, jury's still out on that then ! This one is from the same source (IWM) and shows a Fowler S/C D2 Traction Engine being enthusiastically dismantled under the watchful eye of the Sgt Major. the engine at the rear is a Wallis and Stevens. I'm thinking these pictures may have been taken at the same time and place ? The instructor seems to be the same man.

Original caption; " ASC Steam Fitters under instruction."

Tomo.

21 October , 2014

London Borough of Lewisham in the First World War - The Army Service Corps Arrives

21 October , 2014

Tomo,

I agree that the instructor is the same man.

If it is local, I would be inclined to go for somewhere like Deptford. I know that 985 Company, (Light Railway and Crane Detachment MT) was based there.

Phil

21 October , 2014

Ok Phil, but we have established, have we not, that Steam Fitters and drivers were trained at Grove Park. These pictures show this training taking place. There were 4 acres of land as well as the existing buildings, so plenty of room to build the necessary workshops. The main hospital complex was used for accommodation,administration and perhaps classroom work, but there must have been suitable areas for practical work, machine shops, tool stores, spare parts, forges, not to mention, large vehicle workshops. All of which would need to be added in order to fulfil the allotted tasks.

Even if we ignore the mechanical training aspect, they must have had hundreds of vehicles on strength for driver training, all of which would require servicing and repair facilities. There must have been workshops at Grove Park.

Extract from Mark's post ( #61 above ) from John King; " Changes to Workhouse" In September the workhouse was only half full, there being a total of 400 inmates. The gross under-utilisation of the accommodation coincided with an accommodation problem of the Army Service Corps, the part of the army which provided its transport and supplies. At the outbreak of hostilities, the ASC was slowly converting to motor transport, which was still in its early days, and expansion was immediately necessary. After the despatch of the British Expeditionary Force in August, it was quickly realised that the resources fell far short of requirements. In particular there was a need for means to deal with motor vehicles and a vehicle reception centre, together with stores and repair shops; and to train recruits and mobilise them. Aldershot could not carry out all these functions.

Tomo

22 October , 2014

Meanwhile back in France, here is a nice view of No.2 ASC Repair Shop. No. 320 Coy. MT, Chantiers, 20th August, 1917. The engine in the foreground is a Fowler light tractor T1. On the left in the rickety shed is a Tasker traction engine. Not sure about the other one possibly a foster tractor.

22 October , 2014

A view of Grove Park from the air showing additional workshops, centre and far left, built by the Army during the Great War. Also visible are various vehicles. This photo is believed to have been taken in 1921, but John King thinks it was earlier and may be a wartime image. I'm not convinced there are enough vehicles present for that and if you look really carefully there are two games of cricket being played in the fields beyond.( The left hand one might be bowls ! ) Photo is dated 23 May 1921.

From the website; http://www.britainfromabove.org.uk/image/epw006254

Tomo.

22 October , 2014

Interesting background to the Grove Park Hospital: http://ezitis.myzen.co.uk/grovepark.html

22 October , 2014

Tomo,

I hadn't seen that aerial photo before, only the one below from www.workhouses.org.uk which gives a useful comparison.

I think that clinches your photo in post #58. The three sheds are between the two male wings. A tight fit with the covered walkway running along the back and one of the male wings, with the chimneys, showing on the left hand side. Behind the men would be the original workhouse maintenance buildings. The roof lights show up well on the aerial.

I think it is probably post-war, going by the general lack of vehicles, both within the barracks and on the adjoining roads.

Phil

22 October , 2014

I agree Phil. That was a very lucky find, those workshops were being dismantled at the very moment that picture was taken. If you look on the site, there is a much clearer picture and you can clearly see the whole front half of the workshop is missing, marks on the ground show where the rest of it stood. Another day or two and there wouldn't have been anything left to see !

Tomo.

23 October , 2014

Looks like the workshops were built in late 1916 and may have had a wider use than just the Steam section. More from John King ;

The testing activity continued to be developed throughout 1916 and one day in May, as many as 749 drivers and 157 tradesmen were checked, It was not until the end of the year, however, that workshops and a lecture room were erected. The workshops were for fitters, turners, wheelers, coppersmiths, electricians and vulcanisers. The average weekly number of recruits coming to Grove Park for testing varied from 800 to 1500.

23 October , 2014

Who's up for a tour round Grove Park then ?

ASC New recruits and transfers report to the Testing Workshops. The sign on the door reads Testing Workshops, the script underneath contains the word 'Entry' but I can't decipher the rest. Any offers ?

Tomo