Steam Traction Driver left his name.

[Tomo.T]

Might be worth amending the Topic title to reflect the content includes all this extremely useful & interesting material about Grove Park and the ASC MT in general?

(Done by going to the #1 post and pressing Edit)

Yes, it has developed into a bit of a monster ! I was only trying to research one Traction Engine Driver ! I'll see what I can come up with. Thanks.

[MBrockway]

Yes, it has developed into a bit of a monster ! I was only trying to research one Traction Engine Driver ! I'll see what I can come up with. Thanks.

Or you could add some Tags - I think that's done the same way.

It really is an excellent thread. As well as William Elson, ASC MT, I'm also researching an ASC MT (Petrol) soldier for another friend, so I've been boning up on the ASC in general - a fascinating corps. My father was in the REME, so I've been surprised to see how much of the REME's roots are actually in the ASC rather than the RE.

[Keithtug]

Thanks again Tomo, that's a bit more information I have found about him.

Keith

[TARA]

A fascinating set of photos showing tools, equipment, workshops of the period...... and uniforms!

Were uniforms always worn in these situations or were overalls and more suitable specialist clothing ever worn?

I note that some soldiers were wearing trousers, others had puttees and 'breeches' some of which were a slimmer cut than others. Did units have their own issue of uniform clothing?

TARA

[Keithtug]

Tomo,

just had a thought, my Uncle John William CHARGE may have delivered ammunition to my maternal Grandfather John Thomas JOY ,who was a Sergeant with 329 Battery Siege Guns! Though they wouldn't have known it then, as the two families only joined in 1937 with the marriage of my parents.

Regards,

Keith

[Tomo.T]

A fascinating set of photos showing tools, equipment, workshops of the period...... and uniforms!

Were uniforms always worn in these situations or were overalls and more suitable specialist clothing ever worn?

I note that some soldiers were wearing trousers, others had puttees and 'breeches' some of which were a slimmer cut than others. Did units have their own issue of uniform clothing?

TARA

I commented on this above. Post #80 The pictures clearly show different clothing being worn for the various trades, including engineers blues and aprons etc. Senior ranks often wore tailored private purchase uniforms and I think our Sgt Major ( above ) is a good example of this. Look at the pictures.

[Tomo.T]

Tomo,

just had a thought, my Uncle John William CHARGE may have delivered ammunition to my maternal Grandfather John Thomas JOY ,who was a Sergeant with 329 Battery Siege Guns! Though they wouldn't have known it then, as the two families only joined in 1937 with the marriage of my parents.

Regards,

Keith

Keith,

Then they would have been Charged with Joy ! (so to speak) If you would like to delve further, Col. Michael Young's book Army Service Corps1902-1918 gives more detail of the individual companies, unit breakdowns and vehicle details. Its pricey but a gold mine of information and a lot of book for your money. Also available in your local Library of course.

You might like to look here as well The Long, Long Trail

From Michael Young's book: MT for Siege Batteries in 1915 included 8 x 3 Ton Lorries for transport of ammunition.

Tomo

[Tomo.T]

Or you could add some Tags - I think that's done the same way.

It really is an excellent thread. As well as William Elson, ASC MT, I'm also researching an ASC MT (Petrol) soldier for another friend, so I've been boning up on the ASC in general - a fascinating corps. My father was in the REME, so I've been surprised to see how much of the REME's roots are actually in the ASC rather than the RE.

Tags added, good thinking Sir. The ASC were truly multi faceted and did the work of several independent Corps today including Ordnance, Catering and REME !

Tomo

Edit, Spelling improved

Edited 26 October , 2014 by Tomo.T

[Keithtug]

Ho Ho .

I'll have a look for Michael Young's book and in the Long Long Trail. Thanks.

Keith

[Scalyback]

Tags added, good thinking Sir. The ASC were truly multi faceted and did the work of several independent Corps today including Ordinance, Catering and REME !

Tomo

Are you not confusing some of the tasks with the AOC? A seperate corps!

[Tomo.T]

Are you not confusing some of the tasks with the AOC? A seperate corps!

I meant that the ASC were responsible for many of the tasks which were later handed over to the AOC and other Corps. Not very well worded and Ordnance doesn't have an 'I', apologies !

Tomo

[Scalyback]

No problems they all ended up together in a Really Large Corps

[Tomo.T]

Yep, so they did !

[Tomo.T]

Just to add to the confusion, There were two ASC driver training facilities, both in the London area ! Grove Park in Lewisham and Osterley Park in Hounslow. The latter certainly trained lorry and bus drivers and trainees were sent to both establishments. Osterley Park maintained their vehicles in a local commandeered LGOC bus garage which was 2 miles from the park. ( not the Catford one in Phil's pic ) and LGOC drivers were recruited as instructors.

When these two depots were closed at the end of the War, a new RASC Driver Training Centre was opened at Winchester to continue the job.

The above information from: Tim Gosling's excellent book, British Military Trucks of Word War One.( Tankograd publishing.)

Edited 30 October , 2014 by Tomo.T

[Tomo.T]

Here is a link to three films produced for the Ministry of Information, showing ASC Driver Training and Maintenance, taking place at Osterley Park,and surrounding roads in Hounslow in 1918. The films are in poor condition and the quality is not helped by the IWM watermark ! However a good variety of vehicles can be seen including Dennis, Peerless and Thornycroft 3 ton lorries and a Clayton and Shuttleworth Traction Engine. Look out for a hair raising journey through the Hounslow traffic and some stunt driving through a skid patch ! on reel 3. From the IWM collection.

http://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/1060022731

Tomo

Edited 30 October , 2014 by Tomo.T

[Tomo.T]

So, what of our Cecil then. ( Remember him ? ) Well we know he joined the queue for the Testing Shop at Grove Park sometime in mid 1915.He was not fast tracked and underwent a fair bit of training there, indicating that he was not previously qualified as a steam fitter/ Driver. He must have shown sufficient aptitude to be accepted for further training as a Fitter and then stayed on to learn the black art of Steam Engine Driving.

We know he didn't embark for France until 1916+, so he must have been posted to a Home Base to hone his skills in the meantime. The most likely spot for this was Bulford Camp, Aldershot, where most of the Grove Park and Osterley Park entrants were sent. There they were formed into Companies, issued vehicles and prepared for embarkation. Bulford seems likely, due to the time lapse between training and embarkation. It would need time to assemble a new Steam Company, rather then sending out a replacement to an existing unit, which could presumably be done quite quickly. All this is conjecture and we are now on dodgy ground, but by following the likely route it may get us further in our quest. So I'm now looking for Steam Coys formed in 1915/16 that had Fowler Lion engines on strength.

Photos of Bulford Camp before the Great War are quite plentiful. There are many pics of big Fowlers going about their business from 1903 with the newly formed Steam Coys of the ASC. Sadly as the War progressed both information and pictures become rather harder to locate and I'm struggling to find either at the moment.

Tomo

[Tomo.T]

Here is one candidate, a well used and elderly Fowler undergoing maintenance at Bulford. Note the ash pan is removed and the fire

bars are in a pile on the floor far left. The motion covers have also been removed. The canopy lettering is in the style of the 1st WW engines, but 63 Coy were formed in 1902 and were busy on the Western front from 1914. So either this old girl got left behind, or this too is a pre war picture.

Tomo

[Tomo.T]

I have hit a brick wall now. There are some ( Auxiliary ) MT Steam Coys. Formed around this time ( Phil has already alluded to them. ) From Michael Young's book the make up of an Aux. Steam Coy is given as Steam Wagons, ie Fodens etc. No other vehicles get a mention, so I dismissed them from my enquiries. I'm now thinking, that may not be all the story. Nowhere can I find any information about these Companies.
,
What does Auxiliary actually mean in this context ? Could it infer the use of Commandeered Vehicles by any chance.' Foremost '. was commandeered, or at least was part of a subsidy deal. This smells interesting.

I have exhausted all my avenues of research on this one, can anybody help with this please.

Tomo

[Phil Evans]

Tomo,

Time to dig into some war diaries, I think.

The problem is that, at the moment, a lot of the relevant ones are temporarily withdrawn over the next few months for conservation and digital copying.

Phil

[Tomo.T]

Phil,

Thanks for that, my limited experience of war diaries has not been good for the sort of information I'm looking for, but I will certainly give it a try. Would you recommend waiting for the digital stuff then ?

Tomo

[Phil Evans]

Tomo,

Its more the inconvenience of some not being available, although it is probably quicker to download a diary, than to photograph it.

My limited experience of ASC / Remount diaries is that they are very clerical and full of statistics. I have one for a Ford van company (1017 Coy) that almost daily records road conditions and vehicle returns, little else.

Phil

Edit: The current programme is here. Subject to change possibly.

Normally, once they have finished working on them, they go back in circulation until the digital copy is available.

Edited 2 November , 2014 by Phil Evans

[Tomo.T]

Thanks, Phil,

Auxiliary Companies appear to have been ( as the name suggests ) Supplementary Units, to be deployed where required. They could well have employed commandeered vehicles or anything that was available to make up the numbers. Still, the only references I've found refer to Steam Wagons, which were used for transport throughout the war. I may be barking up the wrong tree here.

Tomo

[Tomo.T]

Nice view of a Foden steam wagon with crew taking a break on the Western Front. The sideplates show the wagon came from Bulford. The rear sides are down and it looks like they are waiting to unload their cargo which could be roadstone. Note the buffers, very useful in convoy work to protect the smoke box against damage .The plate on the chimney is a rudimentary heat shield for the single acetylene lamp, not fitted in the picture.

Tomo

[Phil Evans]

Tomo,

I had a look through the CEF and AIF war diaries last night, to see if I could pick up any useful ASC Company diaries.

On the AIF site, there is a diary for 36 HAG. 611 Coy is mentioned as attached, but they are hauling the guns with caterpillars (March 1916).

On the CEF site, there is 3 months worth of diary for 69 Auxiliary Steam Company (936 Coy). It initially came out of Bulford with 1 section of 15 Fodens.

So still no luck finding any Fowlers.

On the Home Front, the Museum of English Rural Life is down your way isn't it? I found this file in their archive - "List of steam ploughing sets operated by S.C.D.A. during the first world war for the government" - Reference: TR NTE/85

Phil

[Tomo.T]

Thanks again Phil,

There is some very interesting stuff in there, looks like Capt. Meyer had a job on his hands getting his Fodens over to France at short notice. His Steam Lorries are put to work straight away hauling roadstone for 331 Road Construction Coy. I note he requests working on rear roads as operating at the front will surely draw fire !

He quickly finds problems with badly machined parts causing excessive wear and suggests that Fodens have built these lorries in a bit of a rush ! His drivers are hounded for using too much coal and he succeeds in making economies.

Drivers are told off for using their double high buttons for long inclines instead of changing down to low gear. The' simpling' valve was provided for starting and short bursts of ' double high' ( admitting high pressure steam into the low pressure cylinder, for extra power.)

There are two accidents reported,( one involving a civilian child ) and the other a collision with a petrol lorry. I think the driver of the former is later awarded 21 days F.P. No1.

There is a lot more and the detail is surprisingly good, but as you say, no Fowlers ! .....Well, not entirely perhaps.

Steam Ploughing Engines were a different beast, they were fitted with large underslung cable drums, and worked in pairs winching ploughs and implements across the ground between them. These were predominantly Fowlers but not the Road Locos we are looking for. The idea here was to plough up the vacant land behind the lines and grow crops to save shipping grain,straw and hay across the Channel. This was a War Ag. scheme but I don't know if it ever really got going before the War ended. War Ag. ploughing engines were also employed at home.

Phil,are we able to see what 63 Coy were up to, or 77Coy maybe ?

Tomo