Phil Evans Posted 23 September , 2014 Share Posted 23 September , 2014 Tomo, It may not be the perfect result, but at least it confirms that Cecil is your man. You have a new book to read as well. I finished listening to the Ralph Miller interview. It is a bit muddled as to time and place, as you would expect, but a good insight into the role of the traction engine under Home Service. I will let Mr Hart know what you thought of his (lack of) knowledge of steam engines next time I see him at the London Meet. Phil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tomo.T Posted 23 September , 2014 Author Share Posted 23 September , 2014 Ha ! To be fair to Mr Hart he was probably trying to cater for an audience that wouldn't know much about steam engines either ! A little research wouldn't have hurt though. Tomo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MBrockway Posted 1 October , 2014 Share Posted 1 October , 2014 Some great pictures of William Elson, ASC and the MT 44th Auxiliary Steam Coy repair shops here: William Elson & Alfred Victor Elson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Waggoner Posted 1 October , 2014 Share Posted 1 October , 2014 Another option may be to find and search the War Diaries of the appropriate units to see if his name appears. It would be a bit of a "needle in a haystack" search but it might pay off. Good luck! All the best, Gary Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tomo.T Posted 3 October , 2014 Author Share Posted 3 October , 2014 Searching for the Companies that used the Fowler 'Lion' engines later in the war is proving difficult. 77 Coy was the first and they took over several from the Royal Engineers. Others are mentioned; 63,72,74,75,78 Coys. but nothing after about 1915. It seems that Holt caterpillars were mainly used for towing artillery after this date and the big Fowlers and other engines were scattered amongst various units that needed a heavy haulage capability. The term' Auxiliary Steam Company' seems to refer to steam waggons ( Mainly Fodens) rather than traction engines, in all instances I have so far encountered. War diaries very rarely mention rank and file. Only officers are mentioned by name. Even excluding HT Companies and other unlikely ones, the remaining list is enormous and the task daunting to say the least. Tomo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IRC Kevin Posted 3 October , 2014 Share Posted 3 October , 2014 Tomo, Some Fowlers must have been used for towing artillery after 1915 as the photo from the link I posted in #5 was taken in 1917. The Fowler that's bogged had got like that getting into position to tow the gun (barrel just visible). Granddad used to say that he spent the entire war towing guns, though it's possible that this wasn't totally accurate, he did describe the events of the day that photo was taken in some detail to his son and said he was towing the heavy artillery around at Arras in 1917. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tomo.T Posted 3 October , 2014 Author Share Posted 3 October , 2014 Ok Kevin, That's interesting, but your picture clearly shows the limitations of using such equipment in the mud. Although very powerful, their weight ( about 16 tons ) was a major handicap in such conditions. Clearly they used whatever was available at the time to do the job. Also most of the heavy artillery would have been positioned well behind the lines where conditions were usually better. It's the recording of these vehicles that creates a problem as they all seem to be listed as 'tractors' whether steam or caterpillar. Do you happen to know the Company your Grandfather served in ? Tomo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IRC Kevin Posted 3 October , 2014 Share Posted 3 October , 2014 Do you happen to know the Company your Grandfather served in ? Tomo Sadly, we never managed to solve that one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tomo.T Posted 3 October , 2014 Author Share Posted 3 October , 2014 Yes sadly, I think we may be in the same boat there.I re read the relevant section and it was siege batteries that were issued with caterpillars for transport after 1915. That leaves plenty of other artillery to be hauled by steam.Tomo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andrew pugh Posted 3 October , 2014 Share Posted 3 October , 2014 Hi Tomo. Have you tried the Royal Logistics Corps ( Army Service Corps later Royal Army Service Corps ) Museum at Deepcutt , they have an excellent archive. Its the one where Andy Robertshaw used to work. Hope this might be useful Regards Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tomo.T Posted 3 October , 2014 Author Share Posted 3 October , 2014 Yes Andy, As mentioned in post #1. I wrote to the RLC Museum during the restoration of Foremost. I have since written again with details of the inscription that was found, but have yet to receive a reply. I understand they are very busy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tomo.T Posted 11 October , 2014 Author Share Posted 11 October , 2014 I have today received a copy of the relevant page of WO 329/1965 Medal Roll for Pte. Woolgar from National Archives It contains little in the way of new information other than his rank of "acting lance Corporal" has been crossed out and "Private" written in instead. So he didn't get his Lance Jack confirmed after all. There are 11 other soldiers listed, all M1/ 54** Numbers RASC. In the column marked 'Theatres of war in which served', each soldier gets either a cross or a nought, there is no other entry. Cecil gets a nought, so do three others, one is left blank and the remainder are all crosses. Does anyone know the meaning of these marks ? All those named were apparently entitled to Victory and War medal ( Squeak & Wilfred! ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tomo.T Posted 17 October , 2014 Author Share Posted 17 October , 2014 More conformation from Cecil Byron Woolgar's marriage cert. He gives his occupation as Steam Engine Driver ASC. He and Martha Legg were married in Horsham on 3rd June 1915. What is most interesting is that he has given his address as Grove Park ! So he must have been undergoing driver training there at this time. Presumably he would have been expecting to leave for France fairly soon and they have gone ahead and tied the knot before he left. This raises the possibility that he may have embarked earlier than we thought, however, we know he did not qualify for the 1914-15 star. Does anyone know when the cut off date was for award of this medal ? Of course he may have served some time at a home base before he left, in which case why the rush to get married ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Langdon Posted 17 October , 2014 Share Posted 17 October , 2014 Ref. 1914/5 Star - from LLT: The 1914-15 Star A Star similar to the 1914 Star (see below) was issued to all personnel, with certain exceptions, who served in a theatre of war before 31 December 1915 and who did not qualify for the earlier star. 2,078,183 1914-15 Stars were issued. Simple rule: if a man did not qualify for a 1914 or 1914-15 Star, he did not see service in a theatre of war before 1916. Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tomo.T Posted 17 October , 2014 Author Share Posted 17 October , 2014 Thanks Mike, I think our man must have been posted to a home base to hone his skills in that case. Are there any surviving records from Grove Park ? Tomo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pighills Posted 18 October , 2014 Share Posted 18 October , 2014 Interesting thread. Foremost looks absolutely stunning, a great job done well! What never ceases to amaze me is how, from tiny scraps of information, one thing leads to another and incredible stories are built up. Truly remarkable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Evans Posted 18 October , 2014 Share Posted 18 October , 2014 Tomo, I've never been able to find any official records of Grove Park at the National Archives. The only publication I know of is this brief history by John King, who I believe still does the lecture circuit, including the Western Front Association. As I think I said earlier, I haven't come across a photo of Grove Park showing traction engines either, not even when the Michael Young collection was sold off a couple of years ago. Phil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tomo.T Posted 18 October , 2014 Author Share Posted 18 October , 2014 Thanks Kim, Tiny scraps of information is about right, it's like pulling teeth in this case ! Can't help feeling envious of those who are able to access full service records for their research. Bloody Luftwaffe ! On the upside I am learning a great deal about the use of steam powered vehicles, up to and during the Great War. One recent discovery was a report criticising the British Army's reliance on steam engines for transport. The writer refers to steam vehicles as 'stone age technology'! The date of this report....1910 ! Obviously the writing was on the wall even then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tomo.T Posted 18 October , 2014 Author Share Posted 18 October , 2014 Tomo, I've never been able to find any official records of Grove Park at the National Archives. The only publication I know of is this brief history by John King, who I believe still does the lecture circuit, including the Western Front Association. As I think I said earlier, I haven't come across a photo of Grove Park showing traction engines either, not even when the Michael Young collection was sold off a couple of years ago. Phil [/quote Hi Phil, It does seem to be the case that Grove Park was initially used for steam driver instruction as well as motor vehicles. We have Ralph's ramblings and now Cecil's address on his wedding cert for evidence. There has been mention of the driving school outgrowing the 4 acre site, with vehicles regularly being parked up on surrounding roads requiring armed guards to be posted on them. Other depots sprung up to relieve this pressure and it is possible that the steam section was moved elsewhere ? There does seem to be a lot of engine activity at Bulford and there are pictures of this. What was happening there ? Tomo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tomo.T Posted 18 October , 2014 Author Share Posted 18 October , 2014 Phil, Further to the above. According to the IWM interview Ralph Miller did his training at Grove Park as a steam fitter and traction engine driver some time in 1917, so it seems the steam section were still there then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MBrockway Posted 18 October , 2014 Share Posted 18 October , 2014 Some great pictures of William Elson, ASC and the MT 44th Auxiliary Steam Coy repair shops here: William Elson & Alfred Victor Elson William Elson was also several months at Grove Park - his service record survives - before being posted to repair work in France. He appears to have been a boilermaker or steam fitter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tomo.T Posted 19 October , 2014 Author Share Posted 19 October , 2014 Interesting thanks, more evidence of steam at Grove Park. What year was he there ? I discovered by chance that many German 1WW records were destroyed in the allied bombing of Berlin. At least we got theirs as well ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MBrockway Posted 20 October , 2014 Share Posted 20 October , 2014 (edited) Interesting thanks, more evidence of steam at Grove Park. What year was he there ? I discovered by chance that many German 1WW records were destroyed in the allied bombing of Berlin. At least we got theirs as well ! On re-reading his Service Record, not quite as long as I remembered - apologies! His chronology ... 09 Dec 1915 - Enlisted (under Derby or Group Schemes presumably), married and aged 22 yrs (Was apparently in a Reserved Occupation - some sort of engineering works in SW London) 15 Mar 1917 - Mobilised 16 Mar 1917 - joined ASC Mechanical Transport Reserve Depot at Grove Park 21 Mar 1917-10 Apr 1917 - ?14th Coy (Poss '140 Coy') ASC MT, ?Norwood 24 Apr 1917 - landed Rouen & joined 1st B.M.T. Depot (I think that's 1st BEF Mechanical Transport Depot) - NOT EMPLOYED AT TRADE EDIT: I think BMTD is actually 'Base Mechanical Transport Depot' following the analogy of Infantry Base Depot etc. 30 Apr 1917 - posted to 1st ASC Repair Shop as Fitter 28 Oct 1917-21 Jan 1918 - with 5th Aux (Petrol) Coy 03 Feb 1918 - posted to 44 Auxiliary Steam Company as Fitter 11 Jul 1919 - posted to 76 Aux MT (Steam) ) Coy as Steam Fitter 01-18 Oct 1919 - with 59 Div MT Coy as Steam Fitter 27 Oct 1919 - at Crystal Palace Dispersal Centre 24 Nov 1919 - Transferred to Class Z Army Reserve on Demobilization Most useful page from the service record, but which omits 44 Aux (S) Coy ... Cheers, Mark Edited 20 October , 2014 by MBrockway Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tomo.T Posted 20 October , 2014 Author Share Posted 20 October , 2014 Ok Mark, This seems to be a good example of a qualified steam fitter being fast tracked through the system at Grove Park. He would have been assessed on arrival and must have convinced them he could do the job, as he is posted on to Norwood in 5 days ! A few weeks later he finds himself in France." Your feet won't even touch the ground lad". As a steam fitter in a repair base workshop he would have enjoyed a fairly "cushy number" compared with most. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MBrockway Posted 20 October , 2014 Share Posted 20 October , 2014 Looks like 1st BMTD is 1st Base Mechanical Transport Depot rather than my stab of 1st BEF MT Depot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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