Who is This ? ? ?

[Knotty]

Ok last thing tonight

The photo is Sgt Richard Henry Tawney (later Historian) who lent a watch to Captain Alfred “Bill” Bland, (famous for his letters to his wife) on the morning of 1st July 1916 before the assault by the 22nd Manchester’s towards Danzig Trench, and finally onto taking Mametz.

Bland was educated here at Kidderminster Grammar School.

 

Will check in morning.

[Guest]

22 minutes ago, Knotty said:

Captain Alfred “Bill” Bland

 

     Not quite.   But well spotted.  Harry Tawney actually lent his spare watch to his company commander, Captain Charles Campbell May, 22nd Manchesters-Yes, on the morning of 1st July 1916. May's diaries and letters were published a few years ago as "To Fight Alongside Friends"  Harry Tawney's account is of course well known from his December 1916 article "The Attack" describing what happened to him on "First Day". He ended up wounded in a war hospital -workhouse- in Oxford-his previous experience of Oxford was as a Fellow of Balliol. Harry Tawney was,incidentally, brother-in-law to Beveridge of the Plan.

 

     Our man was a New Zealander who ,with his father came to England to promote the "May-Oatway Fire Alarm"- the gizmo shown.  They lived in Leytonstone, while Charles May went up north to flog them to councils up that way-but during the war he and his wife were resident down here in Wanstead (It is now a Gails coffee shop)  May's story is little known locally  and the family grave of his mother et al, with his name on it, is overgrown at the back of a local churchyard

    The last entry in May's diary, at 5.45 am on 1st July 1916 is well known-but not enough- and reproduced below (taken from "The Men behind the Medals", website of the Manchester Regiment Museum. with thanks)

 

It is a glorious morning and is now broad daylight. We go over in two hours time. It seems a long time to wait and I think whatever happens we shall all feel relieved once the line is launched.

No Man's Land is a tangled dump. Unless one could see it one cannot imagine what a terrible state of disorder it is in. Our gunnery has worked that and his front line trenches all night. But we do not yet seem to have stopped his machine guns. These are popping off all along our parapet as I write. I trust they will not claim too many of our lads before the day is over.

   In his diary he had also written  a last letter to his wife, which ends:

 

"My darling, au revoir. It may well be that you will only have to read these lines as ones of passing interest. On the other hand, they may well be my last message to you. If they are, know through all your life that I loved you and baby with all my heart and soul, that you two sweet things were just all the world to me. I pray God I may do my duty, for I know, whatever that may entail, you would not have it otherwise.

 

(From Wikifandom,with Thanks)

[Knotty]

Harry Tawney actually lent his spare watch to his company commander, Captain Charles Campbell May, 22nd Manchesters-Yes, on the morning of 1st July 1916. 

 

Now I’m slightly intrigued in the book “24 hours on the Somme” by John Kershaw, there is the following passage which I take it to mean that Tawney gave his watch to Bland. (photo of page and made to fit)

Edited 6 November , 2020 by Knotty

[Guest]

Knotty-this is news to me.  Charles May is a local casualty for me and one of those I am keeping till last to write up- because there is such a lot to put together.   The quote by Tawney is from "The Attack" (most accessible in the Spokesman books edition of Tawney's writings down a long while back).  My memory is that the watch quote and the attribution to May is by May's great nephew who edited the diaries-and deposited the originals in IWM. The nephew wrote several bits and pieces about May prior to publication and I think it is in there as well.   I must get out a copy of "To Fight Alongside Friends" and check on this.  

    Of course, no intention to deceive on this- Very good to throw up this legitimate doubt.   The May story is on a par with "Testament of Youth" for the sheer tragedy of it all-  May's batman retrieved his diaries, after carrying the mortally wounded May back to the British line. A fellow officer had been entrusted to get things back to May's wife-which he not only did  but subsequently married her. 

    I have not read the Kershaw book but would be interested to know if the author gives any more specific info. re. Bland and the Tawney attribution being him. There is also a small nagging question that May may have been mortally wounded by a British shell rather than a German one. ("First Day" was,as with so many other places, the worst day of the war for local casualties- and another one may have been mortally wounded as well by British short shelling- serving with 1st Hampshires at Hawthorn Ridge. Another was definitely killed by short shelling at Waterlot Farm in August 1916).

    Does Kershaw give a source-memoir,letters etc for Bland?????

[David Ridgus]

I must admit I had always thought it was May who borrowed the watch, reinforced by the 2005 drama-doc ‘The Somme’ which showed him doing so. However on page 218 of ‘To fight alongside friends’ the footnote says the watch was lent to Bill Bland

 

David

 

[Guest]

30 minutes ago, David Ridgus said:

I must admit I had always thought it was May who borrowed the watch, reinforced by the 2005 drama-doc ‘The Somme’ which showed him doing so. However on page 218 of ‘To fight alongside friends’ the footnote says the watch was lent to Bill Bland

 

David

 

 

     Thanks-  I had not as yet plodded through all of the book.  Bought the Kershaw book this morning and can now add some work on Bland to do as well as background to May and 22nd Manchesters.  If COVID ever ends then my old college,LSE, also has Harry  Tawney papers and I have noted it as a source to check.

   Phew!!  Thanks chaps.   One mistake avoided- only a gazillion (minus one) to go!!!

[Knotty]

3 hours ago, voltaire60 said:

Does Kershaw give a source-memoir,letters etc for Bland?????

Sorry Mr.V, I have been on a Zoom conference all morning, otherwise I would have got back sooner.
Looks like you took the plunge and bought Kershaws book, if your anything like me, I have dozens to trawl back through. The problem I have is picking them up haphazard and reading a bit from one then another and confusion sets in as to wether I actually read it or dreamt it🤪

[Kitchener's Bugle]

Seems like there is a pause, so..........................who is this?

 

Yes a Woman for a change!

 

 

[Guest]

Oh,alright-I'll fall for it. Not Mata Hari- not enough meat on the bone.   A pre-war pic. of Eva Gore-Booth??

[Guest]

18 hours ago, Knotty said:

Sorry Mr.V, I have been on a Zoom conference all morning, otherwise I would have got back sooner.
Looks like you took the plunge and bought Kershaws book, if your anything like me, I have dozens to trawl back through. The problem I have is picking them up haphazard and reading a bit from one then another and confusion sets in as to wether I actually read it or dreamt it🤪

 

    Thanks Knotty for reducing my large stock of mistakes by one!! (Hopefully). As a pretty much retired bookseller, I try not to buy Great War books because the stock of modern works is endless (Modern books also do not keep any real value). But with COVID I succumb to the odd one when it would be too much of a hassle to wait for a library to reopen -Kershaw works out at less than a penny a page,including postage, for a hardback- (cheaper than photocopying). As you say, reading books can be a problem- My experience suggests to me that very few people read a book from end to end-save those reading English Lit. at university-and that "dipping" is the norm. Good thing too. The world would be a very boring place if there was any set of required reading for the Great War, let alone that one had to read the whole of the beastie (In order as well). Too many words for my small brain

[sassenach]

On 05/11/2020 at 23:40, voltaire60 said:

I put this up to lament that after this year's BLM activity, then I think a particularly successful British film of the 1960s will,alas, not grace our Christmas-New Year schedules again. Yes, I know it is on DVD..............    But its not quite the same as being slouched on a sofa with the last of the Vino Acidico, half a mince pie, a turkey sandwich and a hangover while someone is shouting  "Rear rank, FIRE....Forward". It did use to make one realise how one had overindulged a little.

A little early in the season, but it's on today at 1730 on Sky Greats. Settle down with a nice cuppa tea now, there's a good gentleman...  

[Marilyne]

ha ... for once I'm on time... 

That's too easy ... shall I keep the suspense up... while I blast Abba's "Waterloo" through the house ????  

 

M.

Edited 7 November , 2020 by Marilyne

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Marilyne said:

ha ... for once I'm on time... 

That's too easy ... shall I keep the suspense up... while I blast Abba's "Waterloo" through the house ????  

 

    Yes-It's obviously Hugh Laurie in "Blackadder".........  I'll get my coat

 

 

 

[Marilyne]

nah... the hair's all wrong... 

 

M.

[Fattyowls]

6 hours ago, Marilyne said:

shall I keep the suspense up...

 

Yes.

 

6 hours ago, Marilyne said:

while I blast Abba's "Waterloo" through the house ????

 

No.

[neverforget]

 

Having some idea of the Major's taste in music, I can only assume that Abba or Waterloo is a clue of some description?

Whilst we're searching for Mr. Bugle's lady, can I butt in with this chap?

It would seem appropriate. 

Edited 7 November , 2020 by neverforget

[David Ridgus]

A punt NF but is it the chap who selected the unknown soldier, Brigadier Wyatt?

 

David

[neverforget]

Just now, David Ridgus said:

A punt NF but is it the chap who selected the unknown soldier, Brigadier Wyatt?

 

David

And so today's fastest gun in the West award goes to our Maestro Ridgus!

Well done David, Wyatt it is.👍

Picture from here:

http://www.forum.antique-photos.com/topic/2505-бригадир-lj-wyatt-–-командующий-британскими-войсками/page__pid__29256#entry29256

[Kitchener's Bugle]

I suspect Marilyne might have the answer, but for those who would like to work it out here are some clues:-

 

The Woman is English.

 

She has a connection with a very well known "German" "General" who predates the Great War era.

 

She is best known for her writings

Edited 7 November , 2020 by Kitchener's Bugle

[Marilyne]

@neverforget well seen!!!

[neverforget]

3 minutes ago, Kitchener's Bugle said:

I suspect Marilyne might have the answer, for for those who would like to work it out here are some clues:-

 

The Woman is English.

 

She has a connection with a well known "German" General.

 

She is best known for her writings

Would that be 

"An English wife in Berlin", Evelyn Princess Blucher?

[Kitchener's Bugle]

18 minutes ago, neverforget said:

Would that be 

"An English wife in Berlin", Evelyn Princess Blucher?

 

Indeed you got it.

 

Evelyn Fürstin Blücher von Wahlstatt...............

 

Evelyn Stapleton- Bretherton from Rainhill.  

Gebhard Blücher von Wahlstatt, the fourth Fürst (Prince) Blücher (1865–1931), an Anglophile descended from the great Prussian General-Field-Marshal Gebhard Leberecht von Blücher (1742–1819), the first Prince, who had contributed notably to the allied victory at the Battle of Waterloo in 1815. Her sister, Gertrude Stapleton-Bretherton, married Vice-Admiral Kenneth Dewar (1879–1964).

 

 

she kept a diary, describing life in Berlin and at the family estate of Krieblowitz (now Krobielowice) in Silesia (now in Poland), from the point of view of an English exile among the deeply conservative Prussian Nobility. This became the basis for her account of the war published as Princess Blucher, English Wife in Berlin: a private memoir of events, politics and daily life in Germany throughout the War and the social revolution of 1918 (Constable, 1920).

The journal remains a well-known source of information on life in Germany during World War I. During the cold winter of 1916/1917 she noted the shortages of fuel and food in Berlin which caused public morale, especially of the poorest, to plummet. Also described are the last weeks of the German Empire, with the decline of the old order, the fall of the monarchy, and the appalling social conditions that led to Spartacist uprisings and the German Revolution as the country became a failed state.

 

My interest stems from the fact that Rainhill in part of my own home Town of St.Helens.

 

The Stapleton-Bretherton family had significant connection to the Great War.

 

Major Frederick Stapleton-Bretherton was KIA, His son Lt Osmond Stapleton-Bretherton was killed in action in France aged 19, and another Brother Capt Wilfred Stapleton-Bretherton was killed in Belgium aged 28. 

 

[Fattyowls]

2 hours ago, Kitchener's Bugle said:

My interest stems from the fact that Rainhill in part of my own home Town of St.Helens.

 

Well I never knew that (the Princess Blucher bit that is). Every day is a skool day on WiT?

[David Ridgus]

4 hours ago, neverforget said:

And so today's fastest gun in the West award goes to our Maestro Ridgus!

Well done David, Wyatt it is.👍

 

A happy accident. I’m just putting together an assembly for Wednesday and my theme this year is the centenary of the unknown soldier, so Wyatt was in my thoughts. It’s going to be a bit weird doing an assembly via the ether but on the Richter scale of inconvenience this year that doesn’t even register

[Fattyowls]

9 minutes ago, David Ridgus said:

centenary of the unknown soldier

 

There are enough in this to keep us going for a few weeks if anyone would like to have a go. Most of the people are identifiable, except one of course.....

 

Pete.

 

P.S Picture by Fortunino Matania originally in the Illustrated London News.