The Crimson Field - BBC drama series

[Old Tom]

As TV drama goes, not too bad. A pity a voice at the end, perhaps with the credits, remarked they were showing history or words to that effect.

Old Tom

[Guest]

Interesting Blog Life of Wylie

Mike

[catfishmo]

Surgery at a casualty clearing station (1918) by Sir John Fraser Cuthbert Wallace

Edit Casualty Clearing Station

Mike

Yes, I'm about half way finished with it now. It is a fantastic resource for medicine--how they splinted compound fractures, irrigating wounds, advances in abdominal surgery, antiseptics, etc. Thus far it doesn't have any info about who did what or the general atmosphere.

[catfishmo]

Well I could have answered some of your queries with references to back it up, but I commented on a different thread you started and you didn't even acknowledge it, let along give a thanks - so I won't be doing that again. Someone else commented too but you appear too busy pleading with people who obviously don't want to help, your ignoring those who have shown signs that they do.

My apologies. I failed to check the box to follow the thread. Thank you.

[Guest]

Thus far it doesn't have any info about who did what or the general atmosphere.

Perhaps there is information in these online IWM audio recordings? Click

There may be many more hours of audio/video available from the IWM ( you may have to pay for it? ) If I can find this information, surely the professional researchers of a (publicly funded) BBC could find much more?

Mike

[squirrel]

OK so it's fine for there to be inaccuracies in what is promoted as "historical drama". Let our National Broadcaster and those who don't know of the innacuracies continue to perpetuate the innumerable myths and misunderstandings about WW1.

Perhaps the Centenary was the opportunity to start correcting some of these myths and misconceptions - sadly my compulsory licence fee goes to an organisation that doesn't care too much for accuracy.

[kenneth505]

Solidly w/Frezenberg here:

It's TV drama aimed at a mass audience who have no clue, and probably don't care, about the inaccuracies.

The wife and I did watch last night and found it fun for preparing dinner at the same time too. It isn't very much history and it isn't that much entertainment but it's more then we had before. Isn't this following the same formula as most war films? Group of inexperienced newbies brought together by circumstance. The organization has to break them down to build them up. Along the way we get some backstory so we can start to identify with some and revile others. Even we'll get self sacrifice, revenge, glory, love etc.

Just like the proverbial train wreck the most of us 'know' we're going to watch it. The best we can hope for is there is some learning that comes our way and that some of the story lines aren't too predictable and co-exist with the rest. I wonder if there is extra antipathy because of the gender reversals and the fact that we're watching women in management positions and the extra baggage that could evoke from some of us that's causing such an outpouring of reaction. Even in this enlightened era where many of us see a strong leader in a male we see a B*** in a female. The old twice as good half as far has basis too.

Catfish, I'm the wrong person to try to give you a list about accurate inaccurate, not my interest. I do know if I were embarking on a similar effort to yours I'd recognize that there are myriad subcultures out there waiting to bounce and prepare accordingly. It sounds like you've started to scratch the surface, three hours a day for three months (years?) is a good beginning but on this topic it's just the tip. The level and detail of accuracy you can glean from this forum is limitless. You'll have to start working your way through the thousands of other threads that exist and try and ask more specific questions in them. Also, if you haven't yet, read Testament of Youth. It's a question of goals I suppose, if one needs to produce something in a timely fashion then there is a limit to the research that can be invested, hence we get telly dramas that have howlers for some.

[stiletto_33853]

The problem I run in to is that there is no 'here is how a CCS looked, operated, who did what,' etc (not that I have found, anyway). It all has to come from reading, reading, reading, until a picture begins to emerge. Even after a TON of research it wasn't until last week that I realized the head nurse at a CCS was not a matron. I still can't seem to figure out what EXACTLY an MO did. And CCS's had a fairly large 'staff' of non-medical personnel but who were they and what did they all do?

I hear apparently there was some sort of protocol in determining what hospital back in the UK a soldier was sent to--but I can't find reference to it anywhere--although I did find in a diary where on the hospital ship the guys were ASKED where they would like to go, implying that they had some say-so. On Sue's blog she made mention of some specific inaccuracies of Downton Abbey--I VERY much appreciated that as I would have assumed much of what was represented was factual.

Excuse me Mo, with all due respect you have been given links in other threads regarding what a CCS looked like to a flickr account showing exactly what one looked like along with other threads that you have not followed up or answered when people were prepared to help!!!

With regard to the programme, having recently viewed it, not to my taste at all ( in all honesty I will not be watching another episode there are more enjoyable and accurate things to watch ) and following Downton Abbey, which is I believe a huge success in the States one has to wonder if this was made with an eye to the US market. Both are historically inaccurate, but hey what does a bit of accuracy matter, sheesh!!

Andy

[catfishmo]

Perhaps there is information in these online IWM audio recordings? Click

There may be many more hours of audio/video available from the IWM ( you may have to pay for it? ) If I can find this information, surely the professional researchers of a (publicly funded) BBC could find much more?

Mike

This looks great! Thanks so much. Someone also PM'd me offline with another book that looks really promising called The Tale of a Casualty Clearing Station online here. That gives me some great research tools.

[catfishmo]

Excuse me Mo, with all due respect you have been given links in other threads regarding what a CCS looked like to a flickr account showing exactly what one looked like along with other threads that you have not followed up or answered when people were prepared to help!!!

Forgive me -- I am new at this forum and have apparently missed something important. I have looked at all the other threads where I have posted and the only link pics I see are a few to an Australian CCS very early in the war. I apologized to BJay about the private hospital--I failed to click the box to follow the thread. I shan't make that mistake again. I am genuinely interested in the pics if you could point me to the thread.

Thank you.

[auchonvillerssomme]

Not sure if this has been mentioned before but have a read of 'A Medico's Luck in the War' By Colonel David Rorie DSO., MD. This gives an excellent account of a Medical Offices experience through the war with the 51st (highland) Division.

Mick

[stiletto_33853]

Mo,

Try Mike's post #190 with the link to Casualty Clearing Stations, the link takes you to a page containing a lot of pictures, each picture has a link to various websites, a lot IWM but others to websites that might help.

You highlighted Mikes post in #201.

No forgiveness needed really just trying to help.

Andy

[BJanman]

My apologies. I failed to check the box to follow the thread. Thank you.

No worries. It is up to you who you want to talk to It’s just I admire that you want to get things right and so wanted to help, but have a lot on at the moment so don’t want to type lots, only to be ignored.

There was quite a bit written about the medical services. Most out of print now but the books are gradually appearing on the Net. There is one book, which I don’t think is on the Net yet, which will help, as it describes why CCSs were positioned where they were, and their structure etc, including personnel. For example, they had a light and heavy section - the light section was structured so it could move at a moments notice in case of an advance or retreat. If your interested then PM me your email address and I’ll scan that chapter and send it to you.

I wouldn’t class myself as an expert - I don’t know anything about the nursing or medical treatment side (not that interested), but I have been reading about the RAMC units and personnel for over 10 years now, and am still learning. Really want to advise you to keep an open mind about what you read as the RAMC was continually evolving - so what might not ring true in 1918 could have happened in 1914, and vice versa. Also don’t believe everything you read or hear - there is a lot a misunderstanding and rubbish about - much better to read and cross reference the information sources you come across.

Hope that helps

Barbara

[CarylW]

Mo

You've had some good advice.

These might also help

Websites: (I know you've already visited Scarletfinders)

The Medical Front WW1

http://www.vlib.us/medical/

Bibliography Great War medicine

http://gilliesarchives.org.uk/Qmbiblio1.htm

British Nursing Journal archives (covers the war years)

http://rcnarchive.rcn.org.uk/

Archive.org for online ebooks but I think you've already read a lot from there.

More books:

Sue's Scarletfinders list of recommended books

http://www.scarletfinders.co.uk/9.html

Surgeon in khaki

https://archive.org/details/surgeoninkhaki01mart

War Surgery 1914-1918

http://www.amazon.com/Surgery-1914-18-Studies-Military-History-ebook/dp/B00COCM0U0/ref=sr_sp-btf_title_1_8?ie=UTF8&qid=1397118417&sr=8-8&keywords=surgery+ww1

The Medical War: British Military Medicine in the first world war

http://www.amazon.com/The-Medical-War-Military-Medicine/dp/0199575827/ref=sr_sp-atf_title_1_4?ie=UTF8&qid=1397118725&sr=8-4&keywords=medicine+ww1

The Official Medical history - might be possible for you to consult this in one of the larger libraries over there - if you haven't already?

It might also help if you have individual queries, to ask them one by one on the relevant boards on the forum rather than asking a lot of questions in one thread and getting impatient if no-one replies to each specific query. The forum works better that way (I see that you did this for one query and had some help)

I speak from experience! When I first joined here I asked a lot of questions in one thread, hijacked other threads then wondered why no-one replied. Not everyone who can help is on the forum all the time and may catch up with queries some time after they've been posted - as I discovered!

[squirrel]

40 W.O. 1295 Royal army medical Corps Training manual might also be useful.

[Michelle Young]

It was suggested at a meeting today at work that to celebrate International Nurses Day on May 12th we all dress up like the nurses on The Crimson Fields...

Michelle

[CarylW]

It was suggested at a meeting today at work that to celebrate International Nurses Day on May 12th we all dress up like the nurses on The Crimson Fields...

Michelle

Good luck with that Michelle. If you turned up wearing a scarlet cape you'd probably have someone tell you it was the wrong colour and not like the 'real' WW1 nurses on the telly.

[catfishmo]

Not sure if this has been mentioned before but have a read of 'A Medico's Luck in the War' By Colonel David Rorie DSO., MD. This gives an excellent account of a Medical Offices experience through the war with the 51st (highland) Division.

Mick

Thank you--not familiar with this. Will have a look!

Mo,

Try Mike's post #190 with the link to Casualty Clearing Stations, the link takes you to a page containing a lot of pictures, each picture has a link to various websites, a lot IWM but others to websites that might help.

You highlighted Mikes post in #201.

No forgiveness needed really just trying to help.

Andy

Ah-thanks : )

No worries. It is up to you who you want to talk to It’s just I admire that you want to get things right and so wanted to help, but have a lot on at the moment so don’t want to type lots, only to be ignored.

There was quite a bit written about the medical services. Most out of print now but the books are gradually appearing on the Net. There is one book, which I don’t think is on the Net yet, which will help, as it describes why CCSs were positioned where they were, and their structure etc, including personnel. For example, they had a light and heavy section - the light section was structured so it could move at a moments notice in case of an advance or retreat. If your interested then PM me your email address and I’ll scan that chapter and send it to you.

I wouldn’t class myself as an expert - I don’t know anything about the nursing or medical treatment side (not that interested), but I have been reading about the RAMC units and personnel for over 10 years now, and am still learning. Really want to advise you to keep an open mind about what you read as the RAMC was continually evolving - so what might not ring true in 1918 could have happened in 1914, and vice versa. Also don’t believe everything you read or hear - there is a lot a misunderstanding and rubbish about - much better to read and cross reference the information sources you come across.

Hope that helps

Barbara

I have learned that the year in which I will be writing (1916-1917) makes all the difference. Things were very primitive in 1914, and by 1918 lifesaving things like use of the Thomas(?) splint and blood transfusions were in common use.

Give me a day or so--I will PM you about the book. The positioning of CCS and the light/heavy is of great interest. Thanks so much!

Thanks to all who responded with resources. Forum won't allow me to quote all of them : ) These are some outstanding resources! For anyone else interested in this sort of medical detail, last night I read the chapter of Into Battle by Glubb that describes his experience getting wounded, surgery at a CCS, transport to base hospital, and months at a lousy hospital, and then at a good one for facial reconstruction. Excellent detail of the evacuation chain, and his thoughts and feelings (emotional and physical pain) about the whole process. I took a ton of notes on that section--copying much from the text. If anyone wants my notes, PM me and ask for notes on Into Battle.

~Ginger

[Steven Broomfield]

Hmmmm ... after all that, some good is coming oit of this appalling piece of junk TV. People are learning stuff. Whatever next?

[auchonvillerssomme]

My wife, ex-QARANC, hasn't seen it yet, I will be interested in her view.

[MichaelBully]

I was discussing the programme with a chum at work today. Whilst I can enjoy historical drama even though it may not be accurate, but I wasn't convinced by 'The Crimson Fields' first episode. One major concern was that in 1915 I thought that a VAD nurse would have spent some time in a hospital before going to France. But in this programme,the nurses seemed to have just got off the boat and started nursing for the very first time. It's jolly good fun for a drama, but I couldn't suspend disbelief.

I appreciate the argument that if it gets both Great War pals and the wider public researching more credible sources relating to the subject, then perhaps the programme has some merit.

Regards

[Scalyback]

Yes after all you have read I would recommend the books of Prof Richard Holmes. I understand you wishing to learn everything about the medical services but if you do not look at the whole picture, you will miss further details.

[neverforget]

This was a lot closer to being a soap-opera than an historical drama. Must remember to switch my brain off for the next episode if I watch it.

Just my honest opinion of how it came over to me.

[pudsey63]

Well I just got back from a short break and have two programmes waiting on the sky+. I couldn't resist reading all your comments first and now I don't know what to do.

a) grab a large glass of wine and try to watch CF with an open mind whilst waiting for all the howlers, or

opt for Game of Thrones.

And does it really matter?

For once I'm glad I am no expert and can just judge the programme on it's merits as a drama. My expectations are not high, but you never know. I thought The Roses of No Man's Land was a very good read but sadly I suspect a drama can be very loosely based on a source.

[Welch Regiment]

I have to say I've been absolutely underwhelmed by everything produced to mark the centenary thus far. Didn't the BBC's press release last year promise the biggest commissioning fest ever? Certainly nothing of substance has appeared yet, nor seems likely to. The aspect of this that really disappoints me is the total lack of respect for, or imaginative empathy with, the beliefs and motivations of the generation who actually experienced the Great War.

Even when the BBC re-used the 1964 interviews made for 'The Great War' they took the generally thoughtful and (apparently) sincere testimonies of those who had lived through the events and hedged them about with viewpoints so patronisingly anachronistic that the interviewees began to look absurd. Most of us over the age of 40 will have known veterans of both sexes in our own families and from other contexts. Do any of the current media portrayals seem a plausible or authentic account of the behaviour of those people? Would the generation of 1914-18 recognise the representation of themselves in the centenary of the war, let alone feel that their experience had been 'understood' to some extent? Very doubtful indeed.