The Crimson Field - BBC drama series

[seaforths]

I think it is the language that bothers me most, using modern expressions in a so called period drama.

Michelle

Same myth in the Falklands but one incident alleged to a para. A lot of myth about the little chaps. All I can confirm is they make a hell of a curry.

I am reading through letters at the moment written from France during the war by someone who would be considered very well educated and have been constantly surprised by phrases that I thought were modern day terms.

I have read a Seaforth Officer's memoirs and he writes some observations on the Gurkhas while the 51st were learning the ropes from the Meerut Div. They seem to have a reputation for doing their own thing both then and now - agreed on the curry - the best in the world although I would never ask what was in it and wondered if the Upland Goose population suffered while they were there.

If the whole series had been based on a book then we could blame the book or blame them for taking liberties with the book (War Horse springs to mind). However, they do seem to be sharing the same script writers as Eastenders. It almost seems (with both) that they have heard of something occurring, be it rumour or fact and have to squeeze an incident of said occurrence in there somewhere.

I am treating it rather like a book inasmuch as, if I don't like it, I will continue to read it so I can at least comment on why I didn't like it.

[Steven Broomfield]

I am treating it rather like a book inasmuch as, if I don't like it, I will continue to read it so I can at least comment on why I didn't like it.

Unlike you, I never waste my life carrying on with books I don't like.

[Stoppage Drill]

Unlike you, I never waste my life carrying on with books I don't like.

Considered applying the same principle to television programmes ?

[Steven Broomfield]

Oh yes. Many, many times.

Trouble is, this one is addictively awful. As (I think) more than one contributor has pointed out, it's like a slow-mo train crash, or a pile-up on the opposite carriageway of a motorway - you know you shouldn't, but ...

[neverforget]

Is there any historical evidence for the 'ears' scene ?

Somewhere in one of my books there is a soldier`s account of Gurkhas not only collecting ears, but also desiccating them. It goes on to say how one of them put the fear of god into a bunch of German prisoners, by parading up and down in front of them sporting a German`s face that he had gleefully sliced off.

Of course we don`t know how true this is, but it did come straight from the horse`s mouth, rather than second hand from an historian.

In any case, I don`t think I`d buy a packet of pork scratchings from a Gurkha.

[Stoppage Drill]

Oh yes. Many, many times.

Trouble is, this one is addictively awful. you know you shouldn't, but ...

I understand - that's how this thread grabs me . . . .

[Steven Broomfield]

It's how many threads grab me, to be fair.

[Moonraker]

Conscientious objectors whose appeals had been turned down refused to don uniform, but whether they ever appeared naked?

This instance doesn't quite match the circumstances shown in TCF but Archibald Baxter was a conscientious objector, who was sent from New Zealand to England as part of continuing efforts to force him to wear uniform and serve in the army. He described the experiences of fellow COs in We Will Not Cease (Caxton Press, Christchurch 1965):

"They had had a pretty rough time coming over from South Africa in the Norman Castle, he told me. They were forcibly dressed in uniform, their own clothes taken away and not returned to them. When they took the uniform off and went about in underclothes, the underclothes were taken away. They were hosed down and then dressed only in uniform. Though they had been brought out on deck in front of the passengers, they took the uniform off and went naked. After a while they managed to get underclothes again and went about in them. Before landing they were dressed in uniform again and some of them who refused to walk were dragged off."

Baxter later describes how he was forcibly dressed in uniform at Sling Camp on Salisbury Plain.

Moonraker

[seaforths]

Unlike you, I never waste my life carrying on with books I don't like.

A habit picked up at university in dealing with literary review/criticism. Allegedly a mature reader can read with or against the text. If I don't like the book, I find myself doing the latter. I don't really consider it a waste and there are some books that I have put down part way through because I would consider it a waste to continue. However, that is usually because while I might have a vague interest in the subject matter, it's not enough to make me plough on through it.

[Moonraker]

At least TCF is generating some queries from GWF members. I've asked about the nurse's medal ribbon and have just posted questions about how discharged patients were processed. And JohnBoy has wondered if Hospital Blues were ever worn in France - though he didn't admit to watching TCF I suspect he was prompted by these uniforms being worn in the latest episode.

(The hospital featured in the series does seem - to my inexperienced eyes - something of a hybrid, receiving soldiers with untreated wounds apparently straight from the battlefield and holding patients who seem suspiciously healthy, such as the pro-British Irish sergeant. BTW, didn't the actor playing him portray an Irish sailor in Hornblower who defected to the French and became an officer in France's army?)

Moonraker

[susan kitchen]

Please don't get thrown off the forum Susan - the thread is not worth it! I must agree that 16 pages could have been put to better use but then again it is a forum for those to post what they wish (within reason, and it is up to the Mods to lock it when they reckon enough is enough).

Anne

Not up to me Anne if they want to throw me off the forum. One day someone might say "Shut that woman up" But seriously i've made the comments that i think the programme is made with women in mind and so, not much thought seems to have gone in to getting things right. And as i've said before most women have no interest in the war, any war and so couldn't care less. They just want the human PERSONAL stories. I just wondered why so many people spent so much time condemning a programme that has been condemned to death. Perhaps it's like having a bit of toothache. Even when it doesn't hurt it has to be prodded again just to see if you can still feel a twinge.

[johnboy]

And JohnBoy has wondered if Hospital Blues were ever worn in France - though he didn't admit to watching TCF I suspect he was prompted by these uniforms being worn in the latest episode.

Actually ,I only saw the second episode. My question relating to hospital blues was prompted by another thread!

I think that you have to decide whether this program is light entertainment, a documentary or an historical drama.

As some on here have pointed out, there are mistakes. But does concentrating on looking for them take away the enjoyment?

I found the episode I watched interesting.

As you say, it has raised some interest and some questions.

[Ghazala]

I can't help observing that a lot of people have wasted a lot of time talking about a programme that has been full of condemnation!

What else is there to do after 10 pm on a Sunday night!

[hillgorilla]

With 'Crimson Field', the whole thing is just so obviously bogus that I can't suspend disbelief. It's just a load of people in fancy dress playing at soldiers and nurses'

Well, yes, it is a load of people dressed up, playing at being soldiers, but then again, I also feel like this about these so called re-enactors. I have found the series so far to be engaging. It is a drama, a shows about feelings and emotions. So, yes, there was a scene with a soldier wearing a sam browne, no cap badges in some caps etc, but does it really in long run matter. We are watching a programme about primarily nurses and doctors in the Great War. It is a refreshing change from the portrayal of those who served as heroes and whiter than white. The ears scene, whilst I wonder where it has come from, and the emotions in the actors face, just brought to the fore what war is about - killing each other, in not so very nice ways. Battle is not nice, and emotions and human beings can do things they would not normally do. The last episode where the soldiers' leg was shown with an open wound, it being irrigated in the carrel-deakin method, was very interesting and relevant. Nice to see that they actually showed the wound, and also the scene where the wound was debrided. So to call it bogus, is very much from the point. A dedicated dr trying to save the leg of a man. There was at last in a historical drama, a male orderly from the RAMC, but why did they have to infer that he was homosexual, that I find narking, as it just re-enforces current prejudices, that male nurses are gay. It was good that it touched on the subject of homosexuality, as it is one that seems to have been brushed over. The men who fought in the Great War, were on the whole young men, with the same sexual drives as men from today, same gay some not, and it was good to portray them away from the perspective of the hero that is sometimes portrayed. For people to slate it there is a need to really holistically criticise it. The first episode where there was the soldier who was dying, but threatened to cut up the nurse (nice looking one - brown eyes), are we saying that people like that did not exist. Men who fight in war, and also men and society as a whole is not all nice. I feel that the producers have made a real effort to look at in one way matters about us learning and understanding the war - emotions. The war is looked at by some historians in the manner of reading books, such as by the authors such as Sassoon, Richards, and regimental histories, and who moved where and what, but may be they should look beyond that. To call the programme as people playing fancy dress is an opinion that I respect, but how can people judge others portraying a role, if they have not walked in their shoes.Does anyone know what it is like to be a soldier, or to be a nurse. I bet, a lot of people have an interpretation in their mind, but who is to say that it is right.

[Murrough]

Anne: enough will never be enough when discussing this pearl of the BBC Director's and producer's art.

Incidentally, did anyone pick up my earlier question - is there any evidence for the pro-Rebel Irish soldier appearing on parade in the nip? Did it (or something similar) ever happen?

Steve, I have read numerous accounts of Irish involvement in WW1 and have not come across any reference to an incident like this.

[Steven Broomfield]

Steve, I have read numerous accounts of Irish involvement in WW1 and have not come across any reference to an incident like this.

Thanks. The word B&ll&cks came to mind in more than one context.

[daggers]

Pals have asked whether hospital blue uniform was worn in France. I have just finished reading 'Drawing Fire' by Pte Len Smith, who says that it was, and includes a remark I have not seen elsewhere to the effect that the uniform included a type of headscarf.

All the photos I have seen show standard headdress. The book is back at the library otherwise I would give a direct quotation. It was an excellent read, but heavy to hold, thanks to the high quality paper. I believe there may be an online version.

D

[Moonraker]

Len was sent to "Roches No. 1 General" hospital with suspected diphtheria, a diagnosis later changed to acute quincies. "We patients had a very weird costume when convalescent. A cricket shirt with flaming red tie, bright blue tunic and baggy trousers - but much nicer and cleaner than khaki trimmed with mud."

I can't spot a reference to a headscarf, but it's a big book.

Moonraker

[SFayers]

Incidentally, did anyone pick up my earlier question - is there any evidence for the pro-Rebel Irish soldier appearing on parade in the nip? Did it (or something similar) ever happen?

To quote our pal Blackadder:

"If I can remind you of the realities of battle, George, one of the first things that everyone notices is that all the protagonists have got their clothes on. Neither we nor the Hun favour fighting our battles au natural........."

Clearly he was mistaken!

Still, I can't imagine why such a pro-rebellion man would even be there in the first place, it's not even as though conscription was introduced in Ireland. As I understand it all of the Irish soldiers that joined the British army during the war did so as volunteers?

[kevmc]

Still, I can't imagine why such a pro-rebellion man would even be there in the first place, it's not even as though conscription was introduced in Ireland. As I understand it all of the Irish soldiers that joined the British army during the war did so as volunteers?

He wasn't pro-rebellion, he wanted to return to support his mother who was being abused. A lot of criticism about this programme for it's inaccuracy yet those who criticise are no better.

Kevin

[hillgorilla]

This series is a portrayal of young women in a war that altered the life of many, and for once a series about nursing and the issues connected with it. Yes, it is trying to touch on a variety of subjects connected with the Great War, such as self inflicted wounds, Ireland, shell shock etc. Maybe people, if they don't like it should not watch it, and give up slating it. Where do judgements, such as comments about nusrse sitting quietly and not answering back come from? Are they based in actual history, or are they assumed. Many people, unfortunately only get their interpretations of the nursing profession, from what they have seen on the TV, or read in the papers. I doubt many people would actually understand what a nurse does, or did in the past. Or do many think that a nurse is like Nightingale, or Barbara Windsor in the Carry on films? A perspective from a nurse who is about to retire, would mean potentially that they trained in the 1960s or 1970s, and not really connected with the Great War. The Great War, and are many wars see the development of nursing and medicine, here in this programme, one can see very much the emerging questioning of nurses compared with the establishment of army nurses.

[auchonvillerssomme]

My wife is ex-QA Sergeant, RGN, of 10 years service and also a decent researcher in all things military, she knows what happened then and what happens now, doesn't suffer fools (as several on here who know her will testify). But she loves the program, makes no sense to me why she would, but she does, like she says, it's only telly.

[phil andrade]

Your wife's right on the money, sir.

Why can't we relax and enjoy things a bit more ?

At least the BBC is doing a lot to commemorate the Great War.

If there are flaws that irritate, then there is the consolation that lots of people might have their interest awakened.

I'll find the door now.....

Phil (PJA)

[Stoppage Drill]

I come clean in most of my posts, and admit that I do not watch this thing. I was quite confident what it would be like, and it seems I was right.

To those who say "it's only drama" I would say that popular imagery can too easily become the prevailing conception. Think how Shakespeare's character assassination of Richard III has become accepted fact.

It's quite acceptable for polemicist dramatists to produce books and plays which are at odds with historical truth - think Hochuth and "Soldiers" - but things like this only reach a small public, all of whom have to make an effort to get to the theatre, and pay to see it.

Mass media dramas, which will be absorbed by a generally uninformed public, especially those put out by an organisation we all pay for, should aim for higher standards of accuracy.

The Hochuth business reached a satisfying conclusion; the man apparently believed all the participants in 'Churchill's murder of Sikorski' were all dead when he wrote his play; however, the Czech pilot was alive and living in California, and with the help of Carter-Ruck, P. got himself a nice £50k (1972) in libel damages. That was noting to do with the BBC, I hasten to add !

[Sue Light]

Whichever side you take, a well thought out post here from Jessica Meyer (@thehistorygirl1 for any Twitter devotees out there).

Calm down dear, it's only a drama

Sue