Traffic chaos at the Menin Gate Memorial.

[Tom Tulloch-Marshall]

How can you possibly know who amongst the many attending are 'disinterested in the core LP ceremony' ...

Observation. Army intelligence, for example, is largely based upon observation and interpretation - its a tried and tested technique. Not 100% accurate of course (and doesn't work with the dim-witted), but failing other evidence its possibly the best tool available. You don't have to be a rocket-scientist to stand and observe current LP ceremony "audiences" to be able to see widespread evidence of the goon-like behaviour which demonstrates an almost complete lack of understanding of (and disregard for) what is going on.

The photos above gave a minor taste of what often happens at current LP ceremonies. The happenings of the evening prior to that, in terms of disrespect, were quite breath-taking. If you were there and witnessed it then you know what I'm talking about, - if you weren't then you will have to find out off-forum. (I understand that the subsequent "performance" on the Somme really took the biscuit).

The advertising of Ypres and the Last Post as a tourist destination, by general tour companies rather than specialist battlefield tour companies, was highlighted on GWF some time ago (CB). Strip out the vaudeville and that kind of advertising would end in very short order.

Having said that, your post -

"I don't see how the LPA can control the number of people who turn up - it is a public space - and I think it is great to see so many people there. What they can control are the number of 'additions' that are included within the Last Post ceremony. Personally I think there are too many although I am sure plenty of people like the format. I was at the Menin Gate a couple of weeks ago - it was not any particular occasion - and there was an orchestral group of some sort (I couldn't see them), pipe and drums, choir and solo singer. There may have been more but I left at that stage. I can imagine it is not easy to say no to a group who want to play or contribute in some way especially if they have travelled a considerable distance or are commemorating some relevant anniversary - so I don't under estimate the problem the LPA would have.

It has been mentioned before but I would like to have the the period from 8pm for the Last Post, Silence, Exhortation and Reveille kept as it was. Any additional groups, bands, choirs etc could do their stuff separately. On another night of my visit one band played in the Grote Markt and listening to them during dinner was very enjoyable."

- still doesn't make sense, and you have done nothing to explain it. You seem to want the vaudeville experience AND the core Last Post ceremony at one and the same time.

This is just going round in circles - it is being argued that black is white. The Last Post Ceremony is just that, it is The Last Post Ceremony, not The Benny Hill Show or Britain's Got Talent.

Tom

[Mark Hone]

I also don't agree that the crowds who turn up are uninterested in the core ceremony. What people know about the whole thing beforehand, if anything, is that the buglers play Last Post every night and that is basically what they come to see. I attended two LP ceremonies last week where there were no 'performers', only wreath layers and I didn't notice any of the crowd turning ugly when there was no additional entertainment laid on.

[Aurel Sercu]

Tom,

You wrote (in your posting on page 6; # 147) :

1. "Aurel, we are losing much in the translation here. With respect, you are not understanding what I have said."

Maybe it's because English is not my mother tongue. (And I don't understand "losing much in the translation". I didn't translate. But maybe I don't understand this because English is not my mother tongue.

2. "The LPA do control what happens at the Last Post ceremony because they dictate who is permitted to perform at the ceremonies. Are you or any other correspondent going to tell me that I'm wrong there ?"

No. Did I tell you ? I'll have to reread my posting.

3. If Fred Karno's WW1 Commemorative Juggling Monkey Act turn up and say they are performing, are you going to claim that the LPA would have to permit them to perform ? - Yes ? - No ? - which ?"

No. Did I claim that ? I'll have to reread my posting.

4. Ref your statement - "As they have the money ("wherewithal" means "money", correct ?)" - I haven't got a clue what you are talking about. Are you saying that the performers are paid to perform, or pay to perform, or something else altogether ?

Sorry Tom, but I haven't got a clue to what you are talking about.

Did I say or suggest that the performers should be paid to perform ?

I'll have to reread my performing.

Maybe things are getting lost in the translation ?

Aurel

[Seadog]

Tom T-M may have highlighted the problem here insofar that the LPA have encouraged the participation of groups and individuals in the ceremony and by doing so generated more interest from the public and I have to say diverted the thrust of the service away from its original intention. Whether the LPA can or are prepared to "Put the Genie back in the box" is a question that only they can answer but by the examples posted here it looks as if some action needs to be taken to preserve the ceremony in a manner befitting its original purpose.

The best example of this is provided by the LPA themselves: Are all these going to lay wreaths?

Fri 22 Aug Daily ceremony

• High Sheriff of Nottingham
• Mayor of Newark
• Deputy Mayor of Emmendingen
• Newark F.C.
• Emmendingen F.C.
• RBL Portadown
• Friends of the Somme, Portadown
• Portadown Old Comrades Association, Royal Irish Fusiliers
• Veterans of the King's Own Royal Border Regiment
• 71 Engineer Regiment
• Oude Klepper Parade
• Mr. P. Bebbington
• Groep Verhaegh

[Chris_Baker]

A photo from last night's ceremony, from forum pal Chris Lock:

[Chris_Baker]

And

[egbert]

OMG, this is more devastating than the P.Ch. peace concert sessions documented in the early days of this forum.

[Mark Hone]

I'm slightly surprised as the crowds look bigger even than when I was there in August. Is one important factor the proliferation in September of Shearings-style coach parties of older folk who deliberately go away after the school holidays but before Autumn really sets in?

[Chris_Baker]

It must be a really rubbish experience for many of those people. Can't see, can't hear. Stand about for half an hour (or probably twice that these days) and then back on the coach.

[Aurel Sercu]

I think this is the result of some sort of special sports event in Ypres. A triathlon or so yesterday.

And today another sports event (Marathon etc.)

Also : sales days this weekend.

Aurel

[IRC Kevin]

A photo from last night's ceremony, from forum pal Chris Lock:

10502295_1478333585750161_3442310676721225263_n.jpg

A group of my old comrades were laying a wreath somewhere in the thick of that. I have to say that I swore many years ago that I would never attend another last post ceremony at the Menin Gate. These days I always travel over on the first shuttle of the day and time my visit to the Gate at Dawn or thereabouts. Far more atmospheric and parking is a doddle.

[Mark Hone]

Re. post 154. A mere bagatelle: a friend witnessed 24 separate groups laying wreaths at one ceremony this summer.

[Harveyfletch]

We put on the memorials lest we forget and when people come to pay their respects we complain about the crowds . Embrace the people remembering now , because no doubt come 2020 we will be complaining that nobody comes to pay their respects anymore . Be carefully what you wish for

[The Scorer]

When our band (see my earlier posts) performed and laid wreaths at the Gate on 30th and 31st August, there were very big crowds on both days. However, these were a Saturday and a Sunday, when I understand the crowds are now big anyway.

On the original list we had for the first night, there should have been nine wreaths laid, but there were actually thirteen. I was told by someone (I can't remember who) that three turned up without booking, but as they're on the list below, this may well have been wrong. The original figure for the second day was five, but there were six laid.

Sat 30 Aug Daily ceremony

• Lord Mayor of London
• City of London Historical Society
• Drums & Bugles of the Stedfast Association
• Clan Hay
• Anderson family
• Pellatt family
• Brandweer Kaprijke
• Toneelkring Pogen
• Hawley Place School
• Lord Manners and family
• KWB Tremelo
• Ulster Covenant & Historical Society
• Groep Coopman

Part: B+P Sun 31 Aug Daily ceremony

• Bugles & Drums of the Stedfast Association
• Pals Bikers
• RBL Buxton Branch
• Tyneside Somme Society
• Enfield District Scouts
• The Worshipful Company of Actuaries

I have often felt that one of the problems with so many wreaths being laid is that it takes up an awfully long time. This is certainly the case when each one is from an individual organisation or family; the Saturday ceremony seemed to last forever, especially as the master of ceremonies allows quite a time between asking the individual layers to go forward. On the Sunday, it wasn't too bad, as two of the wreaths (fromthe Pals Bikers and the RBL Buxton Branch) were laid at the same time, so this saved time - and, of course, there were fewer wreaths to start off with.

The only changes I would suggest are that the LPA restricts the number of wreaths to be laid at any one ceremony (although I don't know what this should be) and also shortens the time allowed - i.e. as the first layer is laying his / her wreath, the second one is on his / her way across the gate. This seemed to be the case on the Sunday night, but not on the Saturday night.

[egbert]

Why not banning families from wreath laying for individuals during the last post? If I like to remember and pay my respect to my next of kin on the battlefields, I am fine to lay my wreath in privacy without a huge group of spectators. Does it make more "remembering" when laying a wreath for a family member with all the crowds peeping? Appears rather extroverted for me!

[Medic7922]

We put on the memorials lest we forget and when people come to pay their respects we complain about the crowds . Embrace the people remembering now , because no doubt come 2020 we will be complaining that nobody comes to pay their respects anymore . Be carefully what you wish for

I am getting slightly worried because when I applied back at the beginning of the year there was hardly anyone on the list now theres

• Headquarters 2 (South East) Brigade
• Calvijn College, Goes (NL)
• Geelong Grammar School (Aus)
• Modern History Teachers (Aus)
• Mr. S. Lockwood
• Regional Archdeacons' Conference
• Ziekenzorg Antwerp (vak)

I suppose it was going to happen with the 100th Anniversary this year, I will just ignore the crowd and pay my respects as planned then enjoy a nice Belgium beer after.

[chrislock]

Thank you for posting these amazing pics Chris as my efforts completely failed and I gave up!!

Aurel's revelations are correct which created an even larger attendance than normal but if forum members imagine it is only weekends or special events which create this type of attendance, then most definitely not! I walk or drive past this iconic location daily and have even had to change my journey route in order I can get to my house.

Chris Baker has hit the nail on the head. Tis not the amount of pilgrims or arm chair historians numbers but the now vast amount of general tour operators who have tacked this event onto their itinerary. Just have a look at the coaches parked all along the Hoornwerk then read their web sites! Coach loads of people from around the world on Euro trips are now also transported to the ceremony and it is they who make up a huge chunk of the swelling numbers. When I speak to the coach drivers they all confirm even more of their itineraries will be adjusted to take on board a visit to the famous Menin Gate Memorial Last Post ceremony in Ypres with enough time to visit the nearby chocolate & beer shops........

[Seadog]

Post 167 and the problem with that is Chris? or are we to select those who will be acceptable to attend the ceremony, I doubt that you intended for your post to read like this indeed I certainly hope not but sadly many on this topic do exactly that and some are frankly elitist in tone and content. As I have already stated the problem is caused entirely by the LPA who have actively encouraged this once dignified ceremony to become a daily act of theatre and now the genie is out of the bottle it will take a great effort of will and determination to get it back in again!

Regards

Norman

[egbert]

OMG, one more coach will clog the battlefields and contributes to Menin Gate happening.

[Chris_Baker]

... now the genie is out of the bottle it will take a great effort of will and determination to get it back in again!

I doubt there is any will or determination. It is far to great a money-spinner for the chocolate and souvenir shops of Ypres for LPA or local authorities to take any steps to reign in the numbers now attending. The only factors that may come into play are crowd safety and traffic management.

[keithmroberts]

There is no way that I will attend while crowds like this are in place. Maybe in the short winter gap in touring schedules things might be bearable; otherwise I'm afraid that I will just stay away. and pay my respects at some individual graves of men I have researched. Hopefully it will ease slightly from 1919.

Keith

[RammyLad1]

Without the use of a coach tour operator, Leger, then I would not have been able to see the Menin Gate in 2012. That experience of witnessing the last post ceromony will stay with me forever. The centenary of the Great War will obviously see an increase in the number of visitors, for many a coach tour is the only way they will ever get there. We all wish to remember the fallen, most of us don't have the luxury of living in Leper, for us the occasional pilgrimige is all we can look forward to, crowds or no crowds.

[Old Tom]

I have read most of this thread and find it difficult to add anything useful, however I will try. My experience of the Menin Gate only covers a dozen or so years and ten or so attendances when Last Post is sounded. I have not experienced the crowds in the pictures. It seems to me that the increase is due to a number of interlinked factors; the comemoration of the centenary of the outbreak of war, the surge in interest in family history research via the internet, the efforts of the town of Ieper to promote its self and a commercial desire to make profit. I do not wish to imply that there is anything inherently wrong with these factors, merely to offer an explanation.

Old Tom

[Medic7922]

Just got back from my quick visit to Ypres, I watched the Last Post as a by-stander on Tuesday prior to my attendance to paid my homage on the Wednesday which was for me a wonderful experience, There was a lot of visitors attending many where Canadian & Australian and the sprinkling of Dutch Schoolchildren, I must congratulate the Last Post Association for there marshalling of the event and was proud to see British Military units on parade.

Personally I think the numbers on both nights was not was as great as I expected and the local Police had it well controlled, All in All for me a great experience.

[Marilyne]

I wonder if other places have the same turn up ... what do you think the crowd at Lochnagar crater will look like on 1/7/16 ??, Or at Gallipolli next year??