Traffic chaos at the Menin Gate Memorial.

[Medic7922]

Thanks for the support folks, its something I have wanted to do for many years and will attend, my wife has even bought me a new blazer and RAMC badge to wear, September is important to me as the first of my ancestors was killed at that time in 1914 and I think its very important to me and my family to remember them, also to the members of the RAMC which I am proud to have served.

[Bazaman67]

I wonder whether an experimental return to the old format might give some useful data. You know - when the buglers came out, played their little Call to Attention, then Last Post, then the exhortation and 2 minutes' silence, then Reveille, then that's the end. No wreaths, no choirs, no bagpiper. 5 minutes tops. This might reduce numbers and would certainly reduce the period of disruption. An experimental period would help to determine by how much and, possibly, assist planning.

Tom

I wonder whether an experimental return to the old format might give some useful data. You know - when the buglers came out, played their little Call to Attention, then Last Post, then the exhortation and 2 minutes' silence, then Reveille, then that's the end. No wreaths, no choirs, no bagpiper. 5 minutes tops. This might reduce numbers and would certainly reduce the period of disruption. An experimental period would help to determine by how much and, possibly, assist planning.

Tom

[Bazaman67]

Hi Tom. New on this site and just read your comment regarding the traffic at Menin Gate. I went there around 2 years ago, 3 nights running, and it didn't seem too bad. Has the situation there changed? Going again in Septembef so would be useful to know any changes

[keithmroberts]

Bazaman67

Welcome to the forum.

But try going back and quickly reading the thread, then you will have your answer.

Keith

[Marilyne]

For information:

The paper "Het Laatste Nieuws", of today, 8th August quotes a bugler saying : Last Post is more an attraction than an mark of respect

it says the Last Post is a victim of its own success. On a normal day there are 700 visitors, on a week-end this can go up to 3.000 . That has an effect on the atmosphere. One of the buglers sais: when I started 20 years ago, we were happy to play to some 100 persons, 200 at the max. now every night we have a "full house".

You notice the change also at the reaction of the people: when it's silence, you know it's mostly British, who know it's a mark of respect. When there's noise, it's mostly Belgian tourists. The atmosphere in the winter, when there's less people, is more authentic, because you play for only those who are really interested.

Food for thought !!

MM.

[Seadog]

"You notice the change also at the reaction of the people: when it's silence, you know it's mostly British, who know it's a mark of respect. When there's noise, it's mostly Belgian tourists. The atmosphere in the winter, when there's less people, is more authentic, because you play for only those who are really interested"

What a silly sweeping statement, how do you gauge "those who are really interested"? and just what is "authentic" surely if just a small proportion of the visitors (Like us) take home with them the reasons for the service and the dignity in the way that it is conducted then the Last Post will have achieved its aim. Perhaps it would be good for the writer of the article to contemplate the businesses supported by interest in the Great War and the undoubted quantity of cash pouring into the coffers of Ypres. The Bugler might also consider that the ceremony has expanded considerably so perhaps a return to a more simple form would be in order.

Norman

[Stoppage Drill]

Thank you, Marilyne.

I think it is generous of you and the newspaper to draw a distinction which is not wholly flattering to the Belgian tourists. It is something of a change for British tourists to be praised !

I have such ambiguous feelings about this; in the 1950s, 60s and 70s the cemeteries and memorials were little visited, and many of those who did go there were veterans. Now, I can't help but feel nostalgic for those times, but putting my hard head on I think that the truth of it, at the time, was that I was distressed that there really seemed to be so little interest. I seem to recall that Middlebrook, in his battlefield guide appendix to "First Day on the Somme" stated something along the lines of "the cemeteries and memorials are little visited now."

Perhaps I should have been careful for what I wished. Visitors should be pilgrims really, not "tourists."

As it is, because of what they seem to have become, I am unlikely to return voluntarily and independently to most of these sites, though I will be expected to take grandchildren on occasions.

[Mark Hone]

An informed source tells me that 46 coaches deposited visitors for one Last Post ceremony this year. I don't know whether this was the occasion recorded by Forum Pal Chris Lock.

[1st AIF]

The ceremony has become a "victim" of its own success, but success should not be labelled as being a victim. But how quickly the criticism would fly if only 20 people a night turned up. In good old terminology, "They must be doing something right".

For a parallel, frankly I don't want to be anywhere near Gallipoli on Anzac Days when 5,000-10,000 people turn up - I prefer it when no one is there.

When I visit Belgium I do the same and visit the Menin Gate late at night or during the day. If I want to attend the ceremony then I am content to be on the outskirts and let those who haven't been there before get a chance to glimpse the buglers.

I don't see the problem with success.

Len

[Mark Hone]

A tiered spectator standing area has been in place in one part of the Menin Gate since at least Thursday night. (The north side nearest the town centre). I assume that this is a temporary feature probably connected with events this weekend but I've never seen it before.

I notice that the Ypra Inn at the town end of the gate is up for rent. What was the old bar on the opposite side of the street, where the childrens' clothes shop now is, called?

[Tom Tulloch-Marshall]

... if people want the full on experience the only real option is to get there early and be prepared to stand for some time (or take a chair)...

I'm afraid not, because no matter how early you arrive and how carefully you make sure you have a forward position, - shortly before the ceremony starts people will come and stand in front of you. Often they just push in, or stand in front of the roadside chains. Generally there are common denominators; - they will talk throughout the ceremony; they will show little interest in anything other than their camera / video / mobile 'phone; ... and then the other matters which can't be mentioned.

Tom

[sassenach]

I fear you are right, Tom. I have visited since my post in May and have concluded that just listening from somewhere on the outer fringes of the ceremony, probably on the non-town side of the Gate, is the best option.

[Mark Hone]

I attended the Last Post ceremony on three occasions last week, arriving at different times before the ceremony and observing from different positions. The behaviour of the large, multi-national crowd was on each occasion completely respectful. I did not see any pushing or jostling by latecomers and children were encouraged to go to the front. I only heard one example of someone talking (fairly quietly) during the Silence and wreath-laying and am sure that this was done through ignorance rather than disrespect. I recall seeing far worse behaviour at Last Post ceremonies years ago and certainly at our local War Memorial on Remembrance Sunday (Scouts who were on parade talking and texting during the Silence and a group of ex-servicemen in regimental blazers laughing, joking and swigging beer throughout the whole proceedings come to mind). There was no applause except for members of the Connaught Rangers Association, headed by two pipers, as they made their way out of the gate after the ceremony had finished.

My grumpy middle-aged man hackles did rise as platoons of people solemnly raised their cameras and iPhones above their heads for a lopsided shot of one of the bugler's caps but this is a curse of crowds anywhere these days.

[Tom Tulloch-Marshall]

I fear you are right, Tom. I have visited since my post in May and have concluded that just listening from somewhere on the outer fringes of the ceremony, probably on the non-town side of the Gate, is the best option.

You are probably correct, - that or don't go at all. An early arrival and patient wait =

Which can almost certainly be guaranteed to become this with just moments to go >

The clearly defined "spectator" frontage (the chains) are now routinely ignored >

Which on this particular occasion became so annoying that one of the LPA stewards came over to move the bloke >

............. and as soon as the steward had gone >

This sort of thing is now the "norm" for the Last Post Ceremony, and I'm afraid that it probably just has to be accepted that as an act of commemoration it has had it's day; - it is now vaudeville, pure & simple. Another great war institution which has passed it's sell-by date.

I feel sorry for the buglers, who have to stand there like spare whatsit's at a thingemebob's wedding whilst these pantomimes are played out. I can't muster much sympathy for the LPA though - this is a monster of their creation and they alone have the wherewithal to remedy things.

Tom

[Aurel Sercu]

Far from the madding crowd ...

Picture taken today.

Did I have to photoshop cars, pedestrians, bikers away ? No, I din not.

Did I have to wait long before I could take this "empty" pic ? No, not even 1 second.

Did I have to wait long till a car, a pedestrian, a bike, ... became visible. Well, eh ... no I did not. Yet at least 1 minute.

Unfortunately no buglers in sight.

But then the photo was taken on Sunday morning, 9.11 am :-)

Aurel

[Marilyne]

Visitors should be pilgrims really, not "tourists."

I so agree with that statement !!

[Aurel Sercu]

"I can't muster much sympathy for the LPA though - this is a monster of their creation and they alone have the wherewithal to remedy things." (Tom T.M # 139)

I'll think of a reply (something wit or without "Frankenstein" in it).

But I don't have the time right now.

Maybe later.

Or maybe not. :-)

Aurel

[Aurel Sercu]

Tom,

So you seem to suggest (?) that the LPA, responsible for the organisation of the Last Post, created a monster.

I assume by that "monster" you mean the Last Post, or better : the chaos that nowadays goes with it.

And that since the monster has not been tamed yet, it is the responsibility of the LPA. As they have the money ("wherewithal" means "money", correct ?)

Isn't that a little unfair ?

OK, there is "chaos" (but not on a Sunday morning at 9.11 am :-) ).

As a result of the crowds that want to see the LP.

A proportion of them must be Belgian.

Another proportion must be British, Australian, Canadian, etc.

Some of them (visitors, pilgrims, spectators) make it a "vaudeville" as you call it.

Vaudeville implies actors. And directors.

Does the LPA direct this vaudeville ?

That idiot with his camera first was reprimanded by Manu, of the LPA.

During the LP itself he crossed the chain again, and "fell on his knees" for the buglers.

Do you think Manu, during the LP, should have dragged him away ? Thus disturbing the ceremony even more ?

Suggesting (?) he should have dragged away this vaudeville actor may be a little unfair in my opinion.

He was not, and concluding (?) that this is a proof of the LP ceremony having become a vaudeville, is in my opinion a little farfetched and premature.

Certainly if this is meant to mean that the LPA is to be blamed for that.

True, nobody has the duty to feel sympathy for the LPA.

What would you suggest to kill the monster ? (Sorry if this has already been discussed in this Topic, I haven't read all postings.)

Just an idea : continue till LP # 15.000 (some time in 2015), and then decide : "That's enough now. Time to kill the monster we created" ?

Aurel

P.S. Do I have links with the LPA ? I know one person personally, yes, and happen to know the name of the man in the 4th photo.

[Neil Mackenzie]

I don't see how the LPA can control the number of people who turn up - it is a public space - and I think it is great to see so many people there. What they can control are the number of 'additions' that are included within the Last Post ceremony. Personally I think there are too many although I am sure plenty of people like the format. I was at the Menin Gate a couple of weeks ago - it was not any particular occasion - and there was an orchestral group of some sort (I couldn't see them), pipe and drums, choir and solo singer. There may have been more but I left at that stage. I can imagine it is not easy to say no to a group who want to play or contribute in some way especially if they have travelled a considerable distance or are commemorating some relevant anniversary - so I don't under estimate the problem the LPA would have.

It has been mentioned before but I would like to have the the period from 8pm for the Last Post, Silence, Exhortation and Reveille kept as it was. Any additional groups, bands, choirs etc could do their stuff separately. On another night of my visit one band played in the Grote Markt and listening to them during dinner was very enjoyable.

Neil

[chrissparrow]

All very interesting! I am there on September 6th and will post a full report of my views.

Chris

[Seadog]

All very interesting but has anyone contacted the LPA who in my opinion do a great job, about suggestions for improving the experience for all those who attend nightly as they have a perfect right to do. My proposal is to cut out all the additional wreath laying and bagpipe blowing etc except for very special occasions say the anniversary of notable events on the Salient. Police the event properly and remind those who do not show the expected respect to desist or remove them.It would be good to hear from the LPA on this discussion.

Norman

PS Before I am told to take my own advice and contact the LPA, I am involved with both the CWGC and MOD plus others regarding the unacceptable storing of our unburied dead so I leave any contact with the LPA to others at this time.

[Tom Tulloch-Marshall]

I don't see how the LPA can control the number of people who turn up - it is a public space - and I think it is great to see so many people there. What they can control are the number of 'additions' that are included within the Last Post ceremony. Personally I think there are too many although I am sure plenty of people like the format. I was at the Menin Gate a couple of weeks ago - it was not any particular occasion - and there was an orchestral group of some sort (I couldn't see them), pipe and drums, choir and solo singer. There may have been more but I left at that stage. I can imagine it is not easy to say no to a group who want to play or contribute in some way especially if they have travelled a considerable distance or are commemorating some relevant anniversary - so I don't under estimate the problem the LPA would have.

It has been mentioned before but I would like to have the the period from 8pm for the Last Post, Silence, Exhortation and Reveille kept as it was. Any additional groups, bands, choirs etc could do their stuff separately. On another night of my visit one band played in the Grote Markt and listening to them during dinner was very enjoyable.

Neil

I have to say that I am completely baffled by that reply - your second paragraph answers your first paragraph - it is "the additional groups" (and individuals) who FUNDAMENTALLY change the whole nature of the Last Post ceremony. It is "the additional groups" who make the event a saleable item for the tourist companies, and that's why swarms of disinterested (in the core LP ceremony) spectators turn up, and if you don't mind me saying so, disrupt the ceremony. If the LPA didn't permit the vaudeville element then the cabaret audience simply wouldn't be there. "Public space" has nothing to do with it. I'd bet a dime to a dollar that if your local church laid on a comedian and strippers during their Sunday services they would see congregation numbers which the vicar had never even dreamt of. "Popular" and "appropriate" don't always hold hands.

To repeat - your second paragraph actually addresses the issue.

Tom,

So you seem to suggest (?) that the LPA, responsible for the organisation of the Last Post, created a monster.

I assume by that "monster" you mean the Last Post, or better : the chaos that nowadays goes with it.

And that since the monster has not been tamed yet, it is the responsibility of the LPA. As they have the money ("wherewithal" means "money", correct ?)

Isn't that a little unfair ? ..

Etc etc.

Aurel, we are losing much in the translation here. With respect, you are not understanding what I have said.

The LPA do control what happens at the Last Post ceremony because they dictate who is permitted to perform at the ceremonies. Are you or any other correspondent going to tell me that I'm wrong there ? - If Fred Karno's WW1 Commemorative Juggling Monkey Act turn up and say they are performing, are you going to claim that the LPA would have to permit them to perform ? - Yes ? - No ? - which ?

Ref your statement - "As they have the money ("wherewithal" means "money", correct ?)" - I haven't got a clue what you are talking about. Are you saying that the performers are paid to perform, or pay to perform, or something else altogether ?

Tom

[Seadog]

From the LPA Web Site

Extended Ceremonies

Upon request, the Last Post Association allows individuals or groups who support our mission to take part in an extended version of the ceremony. During this extended version, the participants can lay a wreath (which they must provide themselves) to commemorate the fallen. Bands, choirs, etc. who wish to perform as part of the ceremony must submit an application in advance. This extended version of the ceremony also takes place at the usual time of 8 o'clock, but lasts considerably longer than the normal ceremony, when only the Last Post is played

Looking at the list on the web site it seems that every day is an “Extended Ceremony”

Example (There are many more) :

19 Aug Daily ceremony

Band of Brothers Memorial Group

Norwell Historical Society

Sylvester family

Women Institute, Warwickshire Branch

MMBT

Martin family

No wonder there are crowds at the Gate, anyone get the feeling that this has got a little “Out of hand”?

Behavior under the Menin Gate

To allow the ceremony to take place in a serene atmosphere, we would kindly ask all those present to behave in an appropriate and respectful manner. Spectators should only stand on the pavements, as indicated in the plan below. Please remain quiet during the ceremony. Please do not applaud during or after the ceremony.

Norman

[Le_Treport]

I fear you are right, Tom. I have visited since my post in May and have concluded that just listening from somewhere on the outer fringes of the ceremony, probably on the non-town side of the Gate, is the best option.

Last time I was there, I simply climbed the steps up onto the ramparts where I was completely alone, but could hear, and read the names without distractions from the crowds below.

[Neil Mackenzie]

Tom

How can you possibly know who amongst the many attending are 'disinterested in the core LP ceremony' - that is just your assumption? If you are saying that some people only attend to see the various bands, choirs etc then I would totally disagree - but that is just my assumption.

Any advertising I have seen by a Tour company that mentions Ypres will highlight the Last Post ceremony and the buglers. I have never seen any of them sell it on the basis of the additional bands/choirs etc. The Last Post ceremony is still what it is all about and I am sure why the vast majority of people attend and long may that continue.

Neil