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Remembered Today:

Traffic chaos at the Menin Gate Memorial.


chrislock

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... a proper coach park would help or is that far too radical a proposal? ...

I cannot think of anywhere near Ypres centre where a coach park could be situated, but there are plenty of places to park coaches roadside outside the city - along the Menenstraat for example.

Tom

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An even more radical proposal would be for someone, not necessarily from Ypres, to organise an alternative event, planned from the start to cater for the large numbers of school students in particular.

It is several years since I took a group there, but the Menin Gate ceremony was one of the highlights of the trip for the students and moved some to tears. We went partly because of the history and spectacle, but also because they had spent a couple of days touring cemeteries and most of them wanted to take part in something 'official' to show their respect. The Last Post ceremony was also so crowded that the shorter pupils could not see what was happening and spent some of the time craning their necks to see where the sound was coming from. We held our own short prayer and poetry reading at Thiepval the next day, keeping it as short as possible to minimise the disruption to other visitors.

I agree wholeheartedly that such ceremonies should not be seen as entertainment, and not just laid on for the benefit of tourists. However, if there was another way in which the pupils could pay their respects, in a way which enabled them to feel part of a wider community of remembrance, there would be fewer school groups there in the evening. A short wreath-laying ceremony, two-minutes silence, prayer and hymn in a local CWGC cemetery might be one alternative.

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I agree that putting a coach park outside the city would be the best option, if anything needs done. I've attended many Last Post ceremonies, and the traffic diversion seemed minimal, and there was no where near a thousand spectators! The ceremonies I've gone to were all about 20 minutes long. Hardly long enough to warrant major changes to this town.

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The problem with coaches is that the town relies on them for income, well the people on them. A park and ride scheme for coach passengers would defeat the object, obviously. How can you stop 'tourists' attending? You can't. How long does the disruption last. A couple of hours? Perhaps banning the coaches from arriving 20 mins before the ceremony and leaving within 20 minutes of the end?

Or having coach bays for coaches ONLY on battlefield tours?

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Spare a thought for the Last Post Association guys! They are doing their best and must work with ever increasing congregation numbers so to speak but they still manage to create a respectful and dedicated ceremony every evening.

It is the numbers attending and their requests which often create the larger impact no less than applicable to this forthcoming Saturday evening. Just have a look at the LPA calendar and see how many groups, organisations are booked for inclusion into the ceremony. If you go back to the summer period and look at the calendar you may be surprised at how many schools, groups, organisations, the military etc that the LPA have to cater for!

The problem the town faces as many will recognise is this: most evenings the numbers of people and coaches are acceptable and manageable but traffic/numbers problems do occur and if not managed properly then the situation affects local residents and if they complain, well then it hits the press and becomes an issue to politicians, town hall etc, no less than it has done clearly on several occasions recently!

As a resident of this wonderful town I would like to think that the town will find a positive solution to the ever increasing coach parking issues and attendance numbers.

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Chris,

A question, just out of interest really. Do you think the increase in numbers (of attendees) comes as a result of the upcoming anniversary, or has it been a general trend over the years? I gather it might be a combination of the two, but I am interested to hear that the ceremony has become a much bigger event than I ever remember it being in years past. (Last time I was there was 2008 with what I thought was quite a large turnout of 100 or more for a cold November night. It sounds like it was relatively sparse in comparison to present averages.)

thanks,

Peter

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I agree with your thoughts Connor and the fact remains, many attendances in 2013 have been very large indeed!

Often numbers I believe are still manageable however according to one of the town's coach wardens who now operates at the traditional coach park locations, it is the swelling number of coaches which cause the bigger headache due to a minority of inconsiderate drivers and guides along with clearly not enough local coach spaces which also have limited park time compounding the problem.

Much work to do it seems!

I think you got it spot on Connor!

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One of the reasons the numbers are up over the years is that Ypres is now on the radar of general holiday companies. This was not so much the case, say, ten years ago.

post-1-0-67185000-1385052468_thumb.jpg

The punters are in, they buy some chocolate, have dinner, go to the Last Post, and are gone.

post-1-0-84333400-1385052502_thumb.jpg

Just snips from a couple of web pages found in a minute of Googling. There are lots of them.

Do you, Chris Lock, or any other Ypres residents, know what proportion of coach loads are of such a type?

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Not sure Chris Baker but to me and I do walk past the memorial daily is that many are school groups from wherever.

The tour groups you highlight certainly are noticeable but I do feel that the bulk is school/student group orientated however, this is only my observation and I may be wrong here.

What is a fact is more and more chocolate shops are springing up as the huge conveyor belt of chocolate bag laden school children and students confirm!! I was talking to Karl yesterday in his shop and he informed me that the amount of money per student spent in his shop is simply staggering.

Er probably the reason more and more chocolate shops are opening. Not rocket science is it!!

By the way, if I was a normal tourist, the tours you highlight sound wonderful!!

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(...) but traffic/numbers problems do occur and if not managed properly then the situation affects local residents and if they complain, well then it hits the press and becomes an issue to politicians, town hall etc, no less than it has done clearly on several occasions recently!

(From 'Chrislock's posting 30)

Chris,

I couldn't agree more. A handful of people near the Menin Gate when asked if there are problems caused by the large attendance at the Last Post, reply : "Actually, yes, there are times that it bothers us." This is picked up by a local politician (of the opposition), who makes it an issue in the Town Council, and soon the headlines in the papers are "Chaos at the Menin Gate"... Or "Last Post is een lastpost" (Flemish "lastpost" = a nuisance)

You may remember that a couple of years ago someone thought that the name of the Haiglaan should be changed, as Haig did not have a reputation to be proud of. And soon the headlines were something like : "Will the Menin Gate be pulled down ?"

Something similar in my paper of today. "Westtoer" (organisation promoting tourism in our province) wants to teach waiters etc. in Ypres about some basic things about Ypres and the Great War, as they often will have to face visitors asking questions. So my paper (Het Nieuwsblad) went to a number of waiters and waitresses in restaurants on Ypres Market like Den Anker, Au Miroir, Ypra Inn, Petrus, Tea Room Vivaldi, and asked 10 question (I think it was multiple cloice) like :

How did the Great War start ? (What triggered it ?)

Why do so many British visitors wear poppies ?

What's the origin of the name of the In Flanders Fields Museum ?

What does 11 November stand for ?

What is yperite ?

What was the nationality of Ferdinand Foch, after who a street is named ?

Whose names are on the Menin Gate ?

etc.

And of course for the gigantic headline the paper used a not so clever answer : "Who started W.O. I ? Hitler !"

http://www.nieuwsblad.be/article/detail.aspx?articleid=DMF20131120_00848862

(article in Dutch)

Aurel

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It's a good job the memorial is not in the uk because some enterprising official would be selling tickets to the ceremony of it were.

Where do i apply ? :ph34r:

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Haha thank you Aurel for injecting some positive good humour as per your light hearted last phrase comment but likewise, for posting your valid answers confirming how things work in Ypres.

If I could press you further in my capacity as a lame apprentice Ieperling compared to you in your capacity as a genuine Boesinge burger:

If you were Burgomaster or had the power to fix or prepare for the upcoming 100 years commemorations, what would you propose especially when dealing with the current and potential coach situation and perhaps future visiting pilgrimage/general tourism numbers?

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... A park and ride scheme for coach passengers would defeat the object, obviously. ... Perhaps banning the coaches from arriving 20 mins before the ceremony and leaving within 20 minutes of the end? ...

Park & ride - correct, wouldn't work simply because of the time which it would add to coach company visits. Tour companies "sell" Ypres as a package - chock shops - meal - shopping - Last Post. (Also its where coach guides earn commissions and get freebies).

... you may be surprised at how many schools, groups, organisations, the military etc that the LPA have to cater for! ...

I think, Chris, that that is maybe a big element of the root of the current problem - the LPA DO NOT "have to cater for" vast hordes of wreath-laying poetry-reading bagpipe-playing lap-dancing whatever whatever whatever "performers" who have turned many LP Ceremonies into entirely inappropriate affairs. ONE wreath laying or one pipe lament a night - end of story. If a particular night is already booked then any other individual or group can lay their wreath or sing their song at 10am, 3pm - whenever they choose.

Tom

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Thank you all for the informative posts. I am far away and out of the loop here, so it is interesting to hear from members who have "boots on the ground" in Ypres.

Cheers,

Peter

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Perhaps the time has come for coach tour operators to apply, in advance, for a permit to enter the town. The permit could include an allocated parking place for each coach. Those who do not apply for a permit, or are late submitting their application would have to park around the perimeter of the town & their customers walk to the town centre.

Just a thought.

John

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No one has more admiration for the LPA than myself but I fear that their good nature has led them to extend the LP Ceremony rather too often. How many "special" ceremonies are there now per month?

I appreciate that many schools and other organisations want to participate actively in the ceremony but there is a danger that the purity of the wonderful "basic" ceremony is being devalued.

My abiding memories of LP ceremonies after those with veterans present distill down to the sounds of those bugles resonating and then fading away under the arch - but in the context of respectful silence before and after.

The presence of large crowds must inevitably lead to a tendency to extend more and more ceremonies to avoid "Is that all?" type mutterings from the assembled multitudes. To answer "Yes, that's it. Go and buy more chocolate and few more beers" takes a bit of bottle.

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Isn't it amazing how members of this forum feel empowered to tell the good burgers of Ypres how to run their town

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Isn't it amazing how members of this forum feel empowered to tell the good burgers of Ypres how to run their town

No not at all!

And no doubt said burgers (sic) wont be taking the blindest bit of notice.

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Perhaps the time has come for coach tour operators to apply, in advance, for a permit to enter the town. ...

John - I would think that the only people who would applaud such a scheme would be the civil servants employed to (try to) administer it, because it would create a vast amount of bureaucracy whilst having little effect on the problem. Wouldn't it be better to create an out of town coach park (which could surely be done within 3 km of the Menin Gate) and then allow larger coaches to make brief drop-off and pick-up stops in the area about the Grote Markt , the cathedral, or the eastern side of the Menin Gate ? The existing coach spaces by the cathedral could be redesigned and designated to take a larger number of the smaller tour vehicles, say up to 8-10 seaters (with such smaller and less obtrusive vehicles continuing to have unrestricted parking elsewhere).

Aurel makes some very pertinent points in post #35.

Tom

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Re Chris Baker's comments concerning chocolate shops, another will soon open in the Menseweg, that being the old Poppies restaurant, another new chocolate shop will soon open in the Leet and Patricks former shell Hole Book shop now sold and undergoing a reconstruction is also about to become a tourist shop. New hotels and b&b's are springing up all around the town in preparation to the hundred years commemorations also!!

Is the one at the old 'poppies' a new shop or a well established one having to move because of crippling rents?

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Well it looks like I have done my last Menin Gate ceremony due to the tourist factor; thank my lucky stars I did my first over ten years ago

Chris

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Isn't it amazing how members of this forum feel empowered to tell the good burgers of Ypres how to run their town

Yes - in much the same way as it could be claimed to be quite outrageous for Polish nationals to get even slightly uppity if Hillingdon Council were to erect fairy lights on The Polish War Memorial and organise daily pop concerts round the base :glare:

The Menin Gate is a war memorial; a British war memorial. It was built by the IWGC and is maintained by the CWGC, and it commemorates troops who died serving with the British Army. With all due respect, it is not a Belgian memorial and it does not commemorate Belgian nationals.

There is a huge amount of gratitude in the UK (and elsewhere) for the past, present, and hopefully future activities of the LPA, most especially for the buglers and those others who facilitate the daily ceremony. However that does not extend to encouraging "the good burgers of Ypres how to run their town" if running the town includes turning the Last Post Ceremony into a pantomime.

I have no interest in "running" Ypres, however as the grandson of a soldier who fought on the Salient I do feel quite entitled to comment on the running of a British Memorial which carries the names of men of his regiment who lie in Belgium to this day.

Tom

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Well it looks like I have done my last Menin Gate ceremony due to the tourist factor; thank my lucky stars I did my first over ten years ago

I saw my First Last Post ceremony around 1986. I remember feeling sorry for the buglers, with so few people taking notice.

I understand those days are in the past...

Roel

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Is the one at the old 'poppies' a new shop or a well established one having to move because of crippling rents?

Neither Steve. It is an established shop who have now purchased a second shop in order to make even more money over the 100 years commemoration! I believe it's called expansion to meet demand with double the profit!!

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I have just returned from Tyne Cot CWGC cemetery. At one point vehicles were struggling to get into and out of the vehicle park. CWGC vehicles were also in attendance. What worried me and others is the state of the main grass walk ways in parts of the cemetery. The entrance and exit areas are churned up badly and look awful!!

I personally counted 6 UK, 2 Belgian and 2 Dutch school coaches parked up whilst I was there.

More coaches will be around also and hence expect a full house at the ceremony tonight!

Tomorrow evening will be even more busy I believe!

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