Captured Major - Spring Offensive 1918

[MBrockway]

Mike Chappell in British Battle Insignia (1) 1914-1918 (Osprey Men-at-Arms 182)  has a plate on p.14 with this caption ...

 

Quote

Gen. Maxse, commanding the 18th Div. at the time they were orered to choose a sign, liked puns - hence 'ATN', 'eighteen' (1), and the 'M-axes' sign he chose for the Corps he eventually commanded.  Officers of the 18th Div. were identified by triangular patches in regimental colours; Other Ranks wore rectangular patches. Examples are: (2) 8th Norfolks; (3) 8th Suffolks; (4) 10th Essex; (5) 6th R.Berks.  These battle patches were painted on helmets - as (7), an officer of 11th R.Fusiliers - until 1918.  At that stage coloured helmet bands were substituted, as (6) - 7th Buffs, in blue over yellow.  See also colour plate D8.

 

Drawing (7) on this plate is a very close match to the helmet in Jens' photo.  The triangle's colours are red with a black edge.

© Osprey Publishing - Publication's webpage is here

 

Jens' major

 

Note though, that 8/KRRC also wore the triangle point down at this position on the helmet.

 

Plate D8 shows a Captain of 10/Essex in 1916.  Again, a good match for Jens' major, except he is wearing collar dogs.

© Osprey Publishing - Publication's webpage is here

 

As mentioned though, regimental insignia could easily have been discarded when capture was imminent, or even not worn in the battle zone at all.  Also Mike Chappell's paintings are not necessarily as strong a source as an actual photograph.

 

The sample shoulder flashes from Mike Chappell's drawing ...

© Osprey Publishing - Publication's webpage is here

 

Triangles are for officers, rectangles for ORs.

 

2: 8/Norfolks (Yellow)

3. 8/Suffolks (Red above Yellow)

4. 10/Essex (Black-Yellow-Purple) - & see also crop from Plate D above

5. 6/R Berks (Red-Green-White-Green-Red)

 

11/RF was a red triangle edged in black as per the helmet above.

 

8/KRRC wore a solid red triangle point downwards on the upper sleeve, but I do not have a photograph of it in use.  I have no information on whether it was butted up to the sleeve/shoulder seam as per the 18th Division scheme.  The 14th Div flashes were originally worn on the upper back, but they had been shifted to the sleeve by 1918.

 

Jens' major's flash (also in negative) ...

 

 

 

Mark

Edited 16 October , 2018 by MBrockway
Scans from Mike Chappell's British Battle Insignia added

[pierssc]

Badges could have been taken as souvenirs perhaps?

[stiletto_33853]

OK, has anyone got a picture of the supposed Royal Fusiliers officer, the collar dog issue?? not 100% convinced given the facial and ear features of the captured officer and the pictures of Bowen we have managed to get hold off. So lets see how good this gentleman research's is regarding Deakin.

Open minded but prove it is a RF officer.

 

Andy

Edited 15 October , 2018 by stiletto_33853

[Jon1906]

I have to  say, I've really enjoyed this thread. The attention to detail is most impressive. I've been trying to find a photo of George Dekin, but have come up short. I now know his birthday, his mother and father, his death day and which hospital he was in when he died, his wife's name, DOB, and death (and the fact that she once took a ship to Quebec and back after her husband's death), their marriage date and church and vicar who married them, their address near Stoke-on-Trent, when he got his MC, and various other sundry details ... but nothing at all that will help with this investigation! As far as I can tell they didn't have any children, so no threads to follow there. huh. 

[MBrockway]

8 hours ago, Jon1906 said:

I have to  say, I've really enjoyed this thread. The attention to detail is most impressive. I've been trying to find a photo of George Dekin, but have come up short. I now know his birthday, his mother and father, his death day and which hospital he was in when he died, his wife's name, DOB, and death (and the fact that she once took a ship to Quebec and back after her husband's death), their marriage date and church and vicar who married them, their address near Stoke-on-Trent, when he got his MC, and various other sundry details ... but nothing at all that will help with this investigation! As far as I can tell they didn't have any children, so no threads to follow there. huh. 

 

Sharing this might lead others to a photo - e.g. in local papers reporting his MC, or in RF officers groups, or in his school Roll of Honour, or in material relating to his civvy street life.

 

The more we know, the more likely we are to find something.

 

Mark

 

[MBrockway]

I've now added scans from Mike Chappell's excellent Osprey book into Post #126.

 

The uniform evidence is still not conclusive and the physical likeness to Bowen is compelling.

 

A photo of Dekin/Deakin would be extremely helpful and with extra information the Pals may be able to turn one up.

[stiletto_33853]

Jon,

Have you contacted his College archivist, searched the newspaper archives, got his officers papers. The information you have is fine, is it off an ancestry tree or something?? however this all leads to supposition with not one shred of tangible proof.

 

Andy

 

http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/results/r?_q=george+dekin+wo339

[Jon1906]

8 hours ago, MBrockway said:

 

Sharing this might lead others to a photo - e.g. in local papers reporting his MC, or in RF officers groups, or in his school Roll of Honour, or in material relating to his civvy street life.

 

The more we know, the more likely we are to find something.

 

Mark

 

George Dekin came from Griffithstown in Monmouthshire Wales. Parents William and Sarah Dekin. Siblings Kate, Albert, Emmie (on the census form, but I found her elsewhere listed as Emily), William, Evan Charles. On the 1911 census form Dekin is listed (aged 26) as "Theological Student" and on his medal card in addition to his rank of major there is "(REV)" short for reverend, which seems to indicate he was an ordained minister, though I've not been able to find out if he ever worked as a clergyman. I tried to track all of the siblings on ancestry.com, and turned up the probate documents of several of them ... and they seem to lead to a dead-end in the person of Emily (listed as a spinster). When Emily dies in Cardiff in 1979 (she lived just a mile north of where my father grew up!), there are no heirs listed. 

George himself was born March 29th 1885. This information comes from ancestry.com in the form of UK Railway employee records, which lists him working for Great Western railway, aged 14, working at Pontypool station (the location matches). 

In 1919 he married Margory Coleman b.June 10th 1889 (I've also seen her name spelled Marjery, and Madge). I left my notebook in the office, but I found a newspaper listing for 1919 showing their wedding near Stoke-on-Trent, though I can't find it just now. She dies in 1970 in Conway, Caenarvonshire. 

He dies on Jan 4th 1932 at St Andrews Hospital Northampton, and is listed as "of Brendon Park-road Hanley Stoke-on-Trent" according to his probate listing. Heir is listed as Margory Dekin widow. His medal card has the same address on it in Hanley.

The Gazette 1st Jan 1918 listed him as having been awarded the MC. "T./Capt George Dekin, R. Fus." https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/30450/supplement/34/data.pdf

The above info comes from ancestry.com including medal card, census, probate date etc, plus whatever else I could find on the internet (Gazette and the newspaper marriage announcement). 

I also have his military file from the UK National Archives. That's why I'm 100% sure of the spelling as Dekin, despite the fact that he is called Major Deakin in two different works describing the events on the Crozat Canal in March 1918. See for example on page 242 of The Royal Fusiliers in the Great War where it says that Major Deakin and Captain Pearcy were captured. (I have Pearcy's file too.) The text implies that they were captured together, though it doesn't quite state it, but this is false. The circumstance of each man's capture was quite different. 

https://archive.org/stream/royalfusiliersin00onei/royalfusiliersin00onei_djvu.txt

He is called "Temp. Major" on a form noting he was given leave on 19/12/18 after he was repatriated from a German POW camp. Prior to this while in Germany he was sent first to Rastatt POW camp (where perhaps 800 other officers were also sent who were captured around this time which was used as a sort of dispersal camp) and then later sent to (Danholm) Stralsund POW camp on the Baltic Coast. The description he gave of his capture (which I quoted above) came from his report submitted after repatriation. The military file also confirms that the Welsh Dekin is the same as the Stoke-on-Trent Dekin as I find both locations listed, the Welsh Griffithstown one as late as 1917, and the 1919 documents list the latter location. 

His attestation document is stamped 10 Stone Buildings, Lincoln's Inn, London, June 1915. It lists him as 5 foot 11.5 inches tall, and he was 30 years old at the time.  He was commissioned in 27th Royal Fusiliers 7/2/16. His service prior to this was in England. His application for a temporary commission dated 28th June 1915 lists his school as Hackney College (University of London) Hampstead NW. It appears to have been the University of London's school of Theology, which seems to match with other information.

 

OK ... that's a lot of information, but none of it leads me to a photo, nor proof of whether he was the man in the photo or not.

Edited 16 October , 2018 by Jon1906

[MBrockway]

Thanks Jon - there are a lot of potential leads to picture sources there.

 

Now it's up to us to see what we can come up with!

[helpjpl]

1 hour ago, Jon1906 said:

George Dekin came from Griffithstown in Monmouthshire Wales. Parents William and Sarah Dekin. Siblings Kate, Albert, Emmie (on the census form, but I found her elsewhere listed as Emily), William, Evan Charles. On the 1911 census form Dekin is listed (aged 26) as "Theological Student" and on his medal card in addition to his rank of major there is "(REV)" short for reverend, which seems to indicate he was an ordained minister, though I've not been able to find out if he ever worked as a clergyman.

 

Death of the Rev George Dekin MC - Tamworth Herald, Staffordshire Advertiser:

https://search.findmypast.co.uk/search/british-newspapers?date=1932-01-01&date_offsetdate=1932-12-31&lastname=dekin

 

JP

[Jon1906]

50 minutes ago, helpjpl said:

 

Death of the Rev George Dekin MC - Tamworth Herald, Staffordshire Advertiser:

https://search.findmypast.co.uk/search/british-newspapers?date=1932-01-01&date_offsetdate=1932-12-31&lastname=dekin

 

JP

Yup that's him. The newspaper note says "formerly minister" and that gave me enough help to find this record, showing he was at this church 1919-1930. Unfortunately the church closed in the 1960s and has been demolished. https://surman.english.qmul.ac.uk/main.php?personid=7067 

[MBrockway]

47 minutes ago, Jon1906 said:

Yup that's him. The newspaper note says "formerly minister" and that gave me enough help to find this record, showing he was at this church 1919-1930. Unfortunately the church closed in the 1960s and has been demolished. https://surman.english.qmul.ac.uk/main.php?personid=7067 

 

Right - that places him as a Congregationalist, not Church of England.  Harder to find photos unfortunately.

[helpjpl]

According to Genes Reunited, there are 2 illustrated articles about Dekin in the Staffordshire Advertiser:

1.  17 April 1926

https://search.findmypast.co.uk/search/british-newspapers?date=1926-01-01&date_offsetdate=1926-12-31&newspaper=staffordshire advertiser&lastname=dekin

 

2.  09 April 1927

https://search.findmypast.co.uk/search/british-newspapers?date=1927-01-01&date_offsetdate=1927-12-31&newspaper=staffordshire advertiser&lastname=dekin

 

JP

 

 

Edited 16 October , 2018 by helpjpl

[Jon1906]

Well, I don't know that I'd say I'm 100% sure about the photo, but I'd say it's a pretty close match for the captured major. What do you think? Is it him?

George Dekin newspaper photo4.pdf

Edited 18 October , 2018 by Jon1906

[Jon1906]

[pierssc]

We need Peter Jackson to work a bit of digital magic!  Pretty close.

 

For me a telling point is that the photographs are dated.  This major had just been captured was being interrogated on the 23rd.  The other guy was captured on the 21st.  If the date on the photo is correct the other chap is unlikely to be the subject and Dekin is likely because the date and place fits.  I just wish I was a little more confident about the photo match.

Edited 18 October , 2018 by pierssc
Expanded

[MBrockway]

Nice work Jon.

 

It's typical that the top of his shoulder where the battle flash would be seen is just out of shot!

 

Note the RF collar dogs too.

 

Also *I think* there is a hint of an MC ribbon just above the left pocket of Jens' captured major.  Can anyone else see that?

 

The photo of Dekin certainly does not eliminate the captured major being Dekin.  I'll try and do a side-by-side of the captured major, Dekin, Bowen and Barber later in the week.

 

I think we discussed the anomalies with the capture date and location earlier on in the topic:  8/KRRC were overwhelmed on 21 Mar at URVILLERS and Bowen's POW statement makes it clear he was taken there.

 

We postulated that it was not impossible that the German interrogation of such a major would be begun by the tactical commanders of the assaulting units since intell on strengths and dispositions would be of most use to them.  With the speed of the advance, these units were at JUSSY on the 23 Mar, so we postulated they may have kept a captured major with them as they advanced, for interrogation at a more convenient time, and only sent him back to their rear areas after interview.

 

This postulation was developed to explain why either of the 8/KRRC majors captured at URVILLERS on the evening of 21 Mar could turn up 10km to the SW at JUSSY two days later.

 

Major Dekin, who was captured at JUSSY on the 23 Mar, certainly requires a less elaborate postulation.

 

 

Mark

 

[pierssc]

Is it an MC or a button?  

 

Isn’t the idea that the Germans dragged a prisoner around with them for two days pretty farfetched?  I mean, it was a way of explaining how a RB or KRRC officer could possibly be there, but it was stretching it a bit.  If the advance was that speedy, what sort of useful information did they expect to get at JUSSY from someone captured at URVILLIERS?  And from a prisoner who has two days to get over the shock of being captured?  Surely the psycological moment to do the interrogation would be when he was dragged in fresh from thinking he was about to be killed when he might be disoriented enough to be indiscreet.  And do advancing troops ever keep prisoners with them?  They’re just a darned nuisance.  At this moment the Germans think they might win the war.  They need information now.

 

The discussion has mainly been concentrating on the close-up, for obvious reasons.  Let’s step back and look at the uncropped picture in Jens’ first post.  I think it’s a great photo.  The British Major isn’t comfortable, he is tense unlike the Germans who are relaxed.  He is determined to put a brave face on it - chin up, shoulders back, hands clasped behind his back, perhaps to stop them trembling from the shock or the cold or a combination of the two - and we can tell it is cold because some of the Germans are wearing overcoats and gloves and have their hands in their pockets - but he doesn’t want them to think he’s trembling because he’s afraid.  He is surrounded by the enemy, a number of whom are officers.  He’s an object of curiousity to a lot of people - so much so that the guy with a camera takes a photo.  This isn’t a man who has knocked around the command post for a couple of days until they’ve got round to dealing with him.  This seems to me to be a man who was captured only minutes before.  They’re trying to pump him for information which may be of use to them.  When they’ve finished in a few minutes he’ll be sent down the line.

 

On 07/10/2013 at 21:19, KIR said:

 

 

 

 

The Regimental history quoted by Jens says they took a Major prisoner on the 23rd.  This photo is very specific as to time and place.  This HAS to be the Major captured on the 23rd.  Isn’t this exactly the scene you’d expect when they brought him in?  And so far Dekin seems the best candidate.  Yes he has no collar dogs, but he may have taken them off - or more likely had them pinched when he was captured.

 

Somewhere there must be a better version of the photo Jon has found.  Should someone put out a post headed with Dekin’s name and regiment asking for a photo in case fusiliers experts haven’t been looking at what mostly looks like a RB/KRRC thread?

 

Piers

[helpjpl]

Jon1906

 

Is the photo of Dekin from the Staffordshire Advertiser of 17 April 1926 - see #138. I can't check it out because I don't have a subscription to fmp - already paying £179 pa for ancestry)

 

There appears to be a group photo in the Staffordshire Observer of 9 April 1927 - is Dekin included?

 

JP

[Jon1906]

7 minutes ago, helpjpl said:

Jon1906

 

Is the photo of Dekin from the Staffordshire Advertiser of 17 April 1926 - see #138. I can't check it out because I don't have a subscription to fmp - already paying £179 pa for ancestry)

 

There appears to be a group photo in the Staffordshire Observer of 9 April 1927 - is Dekin included?

 

JP

Yes, thank you JP. It was your work that let me get this photo. I actually didn't get it from fmp though, as I agree, it's too much money. Once I had the info you provided, I looked for that paper at the British Newspaper Archive. Unfortunately your second reference didn't have a photo of Dekin. 

[helpjpl]

20 minutes ago, Jon1906 said:

Yes, thank you JP. It was your work that let me get this photo. I actually didn't get it from fmp though, as I agree, it's too much money. Once I had the info you provided, I looked for that paper at the British Newspaper Archive. Unfortunately your second reference didn't have a photo of Dekin. 

 

The William Salt Library has a complete run of the Staffordshire Advertiser from 1795-1972 but I don't know if you can access the collection online to see if the photo in their copy is of better quality.

 

JP

[Jon1906]

3 hours ago, pierssc said:

Is it an MC or a button?  

 And do advancing troops ever keep prisoners with them?  They’re just a darned nuisance.  At this moment the Germans think they might win the war.  They need information now.

The British Major isn’t comfortable, he is tense unlike the Germans who are relaxed.  He is determined to put a brave face on it - chin up, shoulders back, hands clasped behind his back, perhaps to stop them trembling from the shock or the cold or a combination of the two - and we can tell it is cold because some of the Germans are wearing overcoats and gloves and have their hands in their pockets - but he doesn’t want them to think he’s trembling because he’s afraid... This seems to me to be a man who was captured only minutes before. 

Piers

Hi Piers

I'm not sure if it is/isn't an MC, but Major Dekin did have an MC, so that would be another detail that matches. 

I was just listening to a fascinating interview with a soldier who was at Jussy (thanks to the IWM), and he mentioned a funny incident as they were retreating towards Jussy from the shattered front line. He fell in with some remnant of a battalion (he doesn't name them, but wouldn't surprise me if they were KRRC given the time and place) who had had their band and clerks etc captured when they were by-passed. As they continued retreating in the mist, they ran straight into all those prisoners they'd lost who were being escorted by 2 Germans, who promptly threw down their rifles when they realized they were surrounded by British troops. I know its just an anecdote, but it suggests the Germans were keen to get rid of prisoners as fast as possible. Then there's a story from Colonel Julias Guthlac Birch (what a name!) of the KRRC who was in command at Jussy. When he was captured he had a lot of his stuff taken (but he saved his silver cigarette case by stuffing it down his pants!), and then he was promptly given a wounded German to help to the rear and was sent off carrying a stretcher. If the troops who captured Jussy were sending off a colonel that fast, it suggests there wasn't any policy of holding on to British officers for intelligence purposes (such as a major captured 2 days earlier). (The story from Birch is on pg33 of John Toland's No Man's Land, 1918 the last year of the Great War.)

As for the psychological state of the captured major: I quoted Dekin's report (on page 5 of this thread) when he described the circumstances of when he was captured. He was obviously determined to fight hard but communications had broken down. He was moving forward in the heavy mist to find troops he thought were in a position to make an enfilade attack on the attacking Germans, and instead found those troops had retreated and he walked straight into the Germans and was captured without a fight (there was just himself and his runner). I think of that scene and I look at this photo, and I see someone who is not just putting on a brave face, but who is actually really really mad. You can just picture it ... going forward to organize an attack, finding the damn bleeping troops who were supposed to have been there weren't bleeping there, and instead walking straight into the bleeping Huns, and being captured as easily as that. Damn and blast it! OK, I know this isn't evidence, but that's how I imagine it to be...

[pierssc]

Did Dekin say what happened after he was captured?

[Jon1906]

19 minutes ago, pierssc said:

Did Dekin say what happened after he was captured?

Unfortunately his report ends at the point of his capture. The Fusiliers were holding the canal just south of Jussy. He says "The Germans had penetrated our position on the canal at Jussy and I had launched two counter-attacks with a view to expelling them. I had a strong body of troops on my left flank... so I went forward to use these troops only to find that the Germans were already in occupation of the position." If he was moving to the left, then he was heading into the southern outskirts of Jussy. His final comment was "I had only a runner with me at the time when I was taken - Jussy was then in the possession of the enemy."  Also in his file there is an interesting report from the Govt. Committee on the Treatment of British POWs, but only states "He was captured on 23 March 18 at Jussy, unwounded & aged 33... Like the majority of British officers captured at the opening of the March Offensive he was removed to Rastatt Camp in Baden..." There's more, but it's all about what happened after that, and no details on his capture. The report of Captain George S Pearcy of D Coy shows some entirely natural misunderstanding of what had happened: "Word reached me from left that the enemy had broken right through and Major Dekin (C Coy) had been killed." (He wasn't dead.)  Captain H. Brookling (A Coy) has a little diagram attached to his report, and it shows C Coy to the rear and left of the other Fusilier companies operating as a reserve force, with an arrow pointing to the left (towards Jussy) and the comment "C. Coy. Coy count. attacked + captured 7.30am, 23/3" which matches up pretty well with what Dekin himself said about counter attacking towards Jussy. 

 

[MBrockway]

1 hour ago, Jon1906 said:

Then there's a story from Colonel Julias Guthlac Birch (what a name!) of the KRRC who was in command at Jussy. When he was captured he had a lot of his stuff taken (but he saved his silver cigarette case by stuffing it down his pants!), and then he was promptly given a wounded German to help to the rear and was sent off carrying a stretcher. If the troops who captured Jussy were sending off a colonel that fast, it suggests there wasn't any policy of holding on to British officers for intelligence purposes (such as a major captured 2 days earlier). (The story from Birch is on pg33 of John Toland's No Man's Land, 1918 the last year of the Great War.)

 

 

Julius Birch, DSO, was CO of 7/KRRC and was wounded and captured at FLAVY LE MARTEL on the 23 Mar after withdrawing the joint infantry/cavalry HQ from the railway embankment at JUSSY - quite possibly the 'Bahndamm' in the photograph.