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Remembered Today:


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..

Mark, if you don't already have his papers, I can have a look in the next week or so.

Glen

Glen - that would be great - I don't have either men's records and neither does Andy - we've both looked already!

Cheers,

Mark

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Glen,

Must admit that was my impression as in Bowen.

Thanks for the insignia Mark, had them seperated somewhere from the diaries, been looking through hundreds and hundreds of pages of the 14th Division diaries to locate them again.

Andy

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The picture in post 30 also looks to have the 8th KRRC inverted red triangle on the soldiers left sleeve having downloaded it and zoomed right in.

Andy

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8/KRRC war diary report for 21 March. Note it is marked as 'Hearsay evidence' and it also telling that the war diary does not resume properly until 27 Mar when the remnants of the battalion partially regrouped at GRANDVILLERS.

Note also that Major Barber is mentioned by name. A Coy were surrounded in the front line and fought, holding their positions until their ammunition was exhausted.

Finally that the rear elements of the battalion organised a defence of the canal crossings at JUSSY withdrawing in a fighting rearguard action back to FLAVY.

The assaulting German unit (Koenigs Infanterie Regiment Nr. 145) by the end of the day would likely have set up a temporary HQ near JUSSY and it would seem plausible that Barber and Bowen would be taken there for initial interrogation even if they were captured in the front line around URVILLERS approx 4 km to the north east.

The main weight of the German attack fell on 8/KRRC and 9/KRRC - some three and a half divisions. The German attack began at 05:00hrs. A strongpoint outside URVILLERS held by 9/KRRC held out until 15:30hrs, while strongpoints held by 8/KRRC in URVILLERS village itself finally fell about 16:00hrs.

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Just a little more, I have a few letters from officers in the 41st Brigade concerning the 21st March, 2 from 8th RB men which are not pertinent here but one from a K.R.R.C. officer

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14th Division, 41st Infantry Brigade. Although some of the 41st Bde paperwork has been found a lot of the information from this day comes from messages from B.M.'s. The Division GHQ diary is somewhat better giving a clearer insight into the days events.

Andy

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One might perhaps think that if this photo is getting near to Jussy this was NOT a Major who had got back from one of the forward units which were so swiftly, and completely, swamped by the German advance..

Flawed logic methinks - a captured major would be a high value asset that the German HQ would be anxious to interrogate, and a major would be unlikely to leave his company to hold the line without him and get back from the forward units.

Several of the strongpoints occupied by 8/KRRC and 9/KRRC around URVILLERS managed to hold out till 16:00hrs when their ammunition ran out. By which time the Germans had penetrated well past the Battle Zone, past the Divisional HQ at CLASTRES and were being held up on the Crozat Canal at JUSSY by composite units made from rear elements of 14th (Light) Division and others. A German forward HQ on the railway line embankment east of JUSSY would seem logical.

My reading of the picture is that this is a captured major who has been brought forward to such a German HQ by the capturing German unit from some way back in what had now become the German rear.

IIRC there are other mentions in the KRRC Chronicle Kaiserschlacht summaries of KRRC officers finding enemy HQs already established behind them as they began their fighting retreats.

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Further background on the day of the attack from the 14th (Light) Division's report ...

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Originally posted by Andy in this thread here: Corporal Alfred Dominy KRRC 9TH BAT 1914-18 where there's also much other relevant Operation Michael material.

The infamous mist may have been supplemented by German smoke - the 8/KRRC diary makes mention of enemy gas shells.

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Gentlemen, thank you a lot for your answer and your great help!

It might assist to work out where in the Jussy area this in fact is. Jussy is on the St Quentin canal at the bottom of the map, S of Clastres .. the embankment is presumably the railway embankment of the trainline to St Quentin .. if towards Jussy this is nearer rear [locations held by 5 Ox and Bucks perhaps?] .. or indeed does this mean the old location of 14th Div HQ on N side of Lizerolles - Montescourt? on W side of rail embankment?? if so there is perhaps less reason to search for a Rifle Brigade or KRRC link. Checking the 6th Somerset LI, they were largely destroyed but some remnants joined Brigade HQ and some 9th Scottish Rifles falling back on Jussy ' on the 23rd stiff hand to hand fighting took place with the enemy on the embankment'. By this stage no Majors of Somersets were left i think.. only the adjutant Captain Frampton.. One might perhaps think that if this photo is getting near to Jussy this was NOT a Major who had got back from one of the forward units which were so swiftly, and completely, swamped by the German advance..

... maybe the text from the regimental history IR145 is helpfull!? (sorry, too much text - so I used google-translate, hopefully it's understandable!?)

And a map. Thank you and best regards,

Jens

From the battalion diary, Major Maximilian von Frantzius (Commander 2nd battalion):

"23th of March 1918, around 4 clock in the morning some pioneers arrived with pontoon bridges. The companies will be provided behind the channel dam. The 10th Company (Lieutenant Jung) is to go first. When everything is ready, four machine guns gave sustained fire on the enemy trenches, simultaneously 16 pioneers jump with pontoon bridges over the dam to put them into the water. But immediately english maschine-gun fire starts. Two Pioneers fall and six more were wounded, the others have to leave the bridge and come back. The enemy now holds under sustained fire the dam - so I have to abort the attempt.

I send officer patrols to the left and right to find crossing points, the patrol (sent to the left) comes back with a pioneer officer who has discovered a poorly destroyed bridge in section 67th. The 2nd Battalion crossed the bridge, unnoticed by the enemy. The 2nd Battalion advanced climbs the heights across the Channel, but then comes to stubborn resistance in the trenches on the height. It's inconceivable that the enemy has let us go on so easy. They must have slept."

The foremost part of the 2nd Battalion (8th Company under Lieutenant Kromer with the maschine guns from the 2nd MG-Company, under Lieutenant Auler) conquer an enemy machine gun position, so that the further transition at this point was not longer disturbed. (* 1 )

Left of the kings-infantry-regiment Nr.145 the infantry-regiment Nr.67 had also forced the transition, while on the right of the village Jussy was strongly occupied by the enemy. To the south of this village and adjoining trenches began stubborn fighting. In front of her pressing forward soldiers Lieutenant Kaspar Mühlenhoff (leader of the 5th company) and Lieutenant Rudolf Pielsticker (5th company) died.

Finally succeeded Lieutenant Joseph Plassmann (7th Company) and his men conquer the trenches by Jussy and helped the infantry-regiment Nr.30. About 200 POWs, including staff officers were captured, the 7th Company allone caught a major and 70 men. Lieutenant Plassman received the Iron Cross 1st class.

Meanwhile on the left of the Inf.-Rgt. 145 also the Inf-Rgt. Nr.67 going ahead, so it was possible to continue the attack till 2 clock in the afternoon. The strong mist of the morning was gone, the weather was warm. The atmosphere was brilliant, because the channel was defeated.

(* 1) Report of the 2nd Battalion:

"At the last minute the pioneers had completed the bridge. It was now day, the dense fog helped us. The battalion walked over, it almost seems as if the Englishman would be moved away. On wavering boards, we went over. But the clatter of the boots tells the Englishman that we are comimg.

Lieutenant Auler writes: "Lieutenant Kromer went with his 60 man company first over the bridge, I followed immediately with my machine gun squad on the other side. We walked to the channel bank and on the top we saw the british ditch - british bayonets look out. After the barbed wire were cut, we start the attack and after a close combat the enemy surrender."

In the pursuit

Without finding further resistance, the regiment going on (with the 2nd Battalion in front, the 3th Battalion behind) over 4 kilometers passing english camps, soccer fields and railway blockades, over to Faillonel. On the northern edge of Faillonel and on the western edge of Frieres again strong british machine gun fire, but was quickly forced down. Then the 2nd Battalion (with the 9 and 11 Company) goes on up to the base of Villequier-Aumont.

Followed in the third line the 1st battalion helped transporting the artillery guns. After passing the area behind the dam, the 1st Battalion follows too fast and got into the enemy artillery fire (by stepping out at the forest of Amiens-La Fere). It caused some losses. The 1st battalion went back to the forest and accumulates in the woods again soon.

In the evening the 2nd Battalion was on the northern edge of the Bois de Genlis. It moves in front at the southwestern edge of the Bois. The 3th Battalion (excluding 11 & 9th Company) spends the night in a forest east of Faillonel. The 1st battalion in the south of the village Faillonel, on a slope to prove because of the expected enemy artillery fire. The night was cold and there's a thick fog again, but with captured British coats and tents they can sleep.

24th of march 1918

In the morning, the troops are freezing and waiting for the field kitchen. Since yesterday they had no hot meals. But finally the field kitchen arrieved. ...

post sciptum: great - the "same story" from the fog: post-20192-0-42898700-1381759985.jpg 800 × 330 Pixel

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Jens,

Many thanks for that, presently trying to find out if there are any pictures of either of the 8th KRRC officers so looking for their dates of death to check through Regimental materials for that year. Although we have brought it down to two possibles it would be great to identify 100%.

Your map is of great interest to myself given my interest in the 14th Division and helps me plot out the mix up of this period, will have to check with my Divisional material but that map helps a lot. Quite a few of the strongpoints were not completed by the 21st such as the Lambay Switch, with the 14th Division having taken the sector over from the French a little before the attack.

Will keep digging, great thread and photographs, really gives you something to get your teeth into.

Andy

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Jens - regardless of whether the mystery major is indeed a rifleman or not, these are fantastic photos from the other side of the Kaiserschlacht.

In the War Diaries the fate of the units surrounded, isolated and eventually captured by the German assault troops was largely unknown.

Andy and I have covered the KRRC and RB experiences in Operation Michael in several extensive Topics in the past, so it's extremely interesting to see images of the captured men. The Kaiserschlacht was particularly important for 14th (Light) and 20th (Light) Divisions - our particular interests.

Here's the pick of those topics ...

Once again - many thanks for sharing these pics!

Cheers,

Mark

Mark,

(and Andy) thank you a lot! And sure, what ever you need - please tell me! No problem!

But now I need some time to read and understand these many new informations!

Thank you again and best regards,

Jens

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Thanks Jens,

Similarly anything I can help you with regarding the 14th Division from the diaries, both unit and Divisional let me know.

Andy

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Major NE Barber looks like Norman Elsdale Barber listed in WO 338 as belonging to 8/60 (8 Bn KRR) but his service record is still held by MoD due to him showing a P number in the index.

Major L Bowen could be Robert Leonard Bowen (incorrectly described in the TNA catalogue as Brown) If that really is an MC ribbon in the photo, this will be most likely be your man as he was awarded an MC in the 1918 New Year Honours Gazette and was presented with it on 10.4.19.

Mark, if you don't already hasve his papers, I can have a look in the next week or so.

Glen

Glen,

great - thank you for this additional information!

Jens,

Many thanks for that, presently trying to find out if there are any pictures of either of the 8th KRRC officers so looking for their dates of death to check through Regimental materials for that year. Although we have brought it down to two possibles it would be great to identify 100%.

Your map is of great interest to myself given my interest in the 14th Division and helps me plot out the mix up of this period, will have to check with my Divisional material but that map helps a lot. Quite a few of the strongpoints were not completed by the 21st such as the Lambay Switch, with the 14th Division having taken the sector over from the French a little before the attack.

Will keep digging, great thread and photographs, really gives you something to get your teeth into.

Andy

Andy,

yes - it would be great to identify him - I think we are on a good way!

And I load ​​the complete map on following page: Westfront Map 1918

Thank you and best regards,

Jens

post scriptum: I have the next days a lot of work, so maybe I can't answer the next two days!

picture: Kaiser's Battle, 26th march 1918, french POWs (201e régiment d'infanterie (?) and pioneers), Fermes de Beines (Bennes ?)

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Major Robert Leonard BOWEN, 8/KRRC was a third generation rifleman. His father was killed at Ladysmith in 1900 with 2/KRRC in the Boer War. His grandfather was a Surgeon with 1/RB.

Bowen was an Oxford undergraduate in the 1911 Census and possibly a Wykehamist. [EDIT 23 Oct: Glen has since confirmed he was at Wellington College]

We already have a lot of family history on Bowen, and Andy and I are also hunting for more information on him from KRRC records to complete the biographical picture.

Not started on Major Barber yet :-).

I also note from Jen's extract from the IR 145 regimental history that a major and 200 men were captured after the storming of the JUSSY canal crossings on 23 March and that the photo of our major is dated 23/3/1918. Majors Bowen and Barber were both likely to have been captured on 21 March in the front line and battle zone around URVILERS though as you'll all have seen above, the 8/KRRC war diary breaks down between 21-27 March, so we can by no means be certain of dates and locations of the units that were captured. That of course does not preclude them from being interrogated by the regiment's CO on the 23rd, and the battle flash remains a very strong corroboration of 8/KRRC.

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Can I just say that this thread is an absolute pleasure: no bickering, everyone being helpful, not Googling answers and generally coming up with real information.

As an aside, and looking at the photograph in post 63 (and this is semi-serious, actually), was standing with hands in pockets a drill movement in the French army? It seems to happen an awful lot.

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As an aside, and looking at the photograph in post 63 (and this is semi-serious, actually), was standing with hands in pockets a drill movement in the French army? It seems to happen an awful lot.

Les bras à qu'imbo peut-être?

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I'm particularly enjoying seeing the German side of Operation Michael. Fascinating to see the equivalent document trail. Thanks Jens!

Koenigs Infanterie Regiment Nr. 145 appear to have been a unit from the Lorraine/Lothringen raised there after the Franco-Prussian War. Many of these German soldiers would have found themselves technically Frenchmen after 1919. Things are rarely black-and-white are they?!

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Major Robert Leonard BOWEN, 8/KRRC was a third generation rifleman. His father was killed at Ladysmith in 1900 with 2/KRRC in the Boer War. His grandfather was a Surgeon with 1/RB.

Bowen was an Oxford undergraduate in the 1911 Census and possibly a Wykehamist.

Hi Mark,

He most certainly was at Oxford (Oriel), however the Bowen at Winchester was J.B. Bowen 1896 - 1902, Capt., Temp. Major Pembroke Yeomanry. Comm. S.W. Brigade Signal Troop. R.A.F. Temp. Lt.- Col. Comm. No.1 Wireless School, Winchester.

Think the Archivist at Oxford needs contacting, they are usually quite helpful.

1910. Bowen, R.L., (August 29, 1914). Major 8th KRRC (Lt.-Col.). France and Belgium 1915-18. M.C. January 1, 1918. (Prisoner of War, Mar - Dec 1918).

Not in the Blue's register unfortunately as I have most of the pictures of the blues in their respective teams.

Andy

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Regarding the date, post 38 certainly shows as 21/3/18 or my eyesight is worse than I thought it was, and in the originals you kindly sent Jens it looks like 21/3/18 on one of the other pictures.

Andy

Edit: Oxford Archivist on the job, will advise as soon as he can regarding a picture.

Edit 2: Oxford have nothing and do not keep pictures of the students. Oriel College on the case now.

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Oriel College archivist has come up with a re-union dinner in 1919 of all Oriel students to have served. No name key :blink: so going to be a little work but there is one possible candidate.

Andy

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Not having kept up with all this I found myself in the bookshelves at Kew and staring at something which rang a bell !

"LIST OF BRITISH OFFICERS TAKEN PRISONER IN THE VARIOUS THEATRES OF WAR AUG 1914 to NOV 1918" ISBN 0.948.13081.4.

Published by The London Stamp Exchange from records of COX and Co.Enquiry Office at Charing Cross.

Kew Library ref:940.472.094.1.WS

Filed by theatre and Regiment.

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Can this thread go to Classic Threads in due course?

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Working through Bowen's LG entries, some of which include Barber.

Both men promoted in March 1915 while 8/KRRC were still in England, Bowen made up to temp. Lieutenant, Barber to temp. Captain ...

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LG 1915 p.2596-7

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LG 1916 p.5637

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LG 1916 p.12458

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LG 1917 p.12793

MC in 1918 New Years Honours List ...

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LG 1918 p.30

Temporarily in command of 8/KRRC after death of Lt.-Col. Maxwell, MC on 04 Dec 1917. He had been hit by a shell the previous day.

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LG 1918 p.4252

Relinquishes commission ...

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LG 1919 p.16117

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Oriel College re-union dinner 1919, large picture so seriously cropped to fit forum size limits

Andy

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Andy & I have spotted two of the men in uniform have rifles buttons ...

#1 post-20192-0-28620100-1381879409_thumb.j #2 post-20192-0-56996200-1381879634_thumb.j

Here's Major Bowen from the 1915 8/KRRC officers' group shot ...

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#1 appears to have MC and Star ribbons up, but has captain's cuff rank, not major.

#2 has an unidentified ribbon and a ?Star. Cannot make out rank. He seems taller, is moustached and has a much heavier build than Bowen in 1915.

All the men in the Oriel College 1919 photo served, so Bowen could well be one of the men in black/white tie.

Here's the captured major again ...

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