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KIR

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Major J.H. Boardman, 9th RB was seriously wounded on 23rd and captured.

Andy

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I´ve got a silly question.

The 9./KRRC and the 9./RB have the same history in the same brigades and divisions. Were they both the same units?

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Photograph man clearly not seriously wounded.

. . . . .

Wow, you don't say!!!!

I never would have guessed

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Gentlemen, thank you again for your great help!

Major J.H. Boardman, 9th RB was seriously wounded on 23rd and captured.

Andy

... ah - so close - but unfortunately not! Maybe we have to search between the 21st and 23rd of march!?

Thanks & best regards,

Jens

another (undated) picture.

post-28551-0-10666700-1381592180_thumb.j

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on the 21st Major L. Bowen and Major N.E. Barber both 8th KRRC were captured, both on the 21st

Andy

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on the 21st Major L. Bowen and Major N.E. Barber both 8th KRRC were captured, both on the 21st

Andy

... great - so these are possible! Thank you Andy!

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I´ve got a silly question.

The 9./KRRC and the 9./RB have the same history in the same brigades and divisions. Were they both the same units?

Not a silly question at all, but, no, they weren't. The RB were the Rifle Brigade, and KRRC the King's Royal Rifle Corps. Separate regiments but both Rifles so very similar traditions and (I think) shared depot at Winchester. Amalgamated in the 60's into the Royal Greenjackets, now The Rifles.

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Hello Steven!

Thank you for your explantation. So we can say, that they were "sister-units"?

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Jens,

If it is either of these gentlemen, then they are originals with the 8th KRRC. I have a group picture of the 8th KRRC officers at Aldershot in 1915 before going overseas that contains both of them. Unfortunately the paper is not good enough quality when zoomed in to see properly.

Andy

post-1871-0-19723900-1381615601_thumb.jp

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Jens,

If it is either of these gentlemen, then they are originals with the 8th KRRC. I have a group picture of the 8th KRRC at Aldershot in 1915 before going overseas that contains both of them. Unfortunately the paper is not good enough quality when zoomed in to see properly.

Andy

Andy,

great research - thank you very much for you help! And yes, unfortunately the picture quality is not good enough.

I think I try to asked the gentlemen of the King`s Royal Rifle Corps Association, maybe they have some more informations about!?

I will tell them what the gentlemen here has already been found out. As soon as I know something new, I'll tell you.

Thank you and best regards,

Jens

picture: the first POW's, 21st of march 1918, division command post, Roten Berg (red mountain), Jussy.

post-28551-0-59072100-1381672795_thumb.j

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Great research!

From my feelings I tend to Major Barber

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Andy,

great research - thank you very much for you help! And yes, unfortunately the picture quality is not good enough.

I think I try to asked the gentlemen of the King`s Royal Rifle Corps Association, maybe they have some more informations about!?

I will tell them what the gentlemen here has already been found out. As soon as I know something new, I'll tell you.

Thank you and best regards,

Jens

picture: the first POW's, 21st of march 1918, division command post, Roten Berg (red mountain), Jussy.

Certainly looks like some of these men have blackened rifles buttons, so a fair chance they are KRRC or RB men from 14th (Light) Division.

As Andy has already stated, this division had large number of men captured in Operation Michael.

The KRRC Association is primarily the regimental Old Comrades' Association. You are more likely to get relevant assistance from the Royal Green Jackets/Rifles Museum in Winchester: http://www.rgjmuseum.co.uk/

To be honest though, you already have Andy on the case, who is almost certainly THE best informed man in the country on the rifles battalions of the 14th (Light) Division.

Cheers,

Mark

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Certainly looks like some of these men have blackened rifles buttons, so a fair chance they are KRRC or RB men from 14th (Light) Division.

As Andy has already stated, this division had large number of men captured in Operation Michael.

The KRRC Association is primarily the regimental Old Comrades' Association. You are more likely to get relevant assistance from the Royal Green Jackets/Rifles Museum in Winchester: http://www.rgjmuseum.co.uk/

To be honest though, you already have Andy on the case, who is almost certainly THE best informed man in the country on the rifles battalions of the 14th (Light) Division.

Cheers,

Mark

Mark,

ah ok - I understand! I will better asked them!

Thank you very much and cheers,

Jens

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Andy,

Once again, great research on your part.

It would, be so interesting to be able to identify this Major.

Regards,

LF

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It might assist to work out where in the Jussy area this in fact is. Jussy is on the St Quentin canal at the bottom of the map, S of Clastres .. the embankment is presumably the railway embankment of the trainline to St Quentin .. if towards Jussy this is nearer rear [locations held by 5 Ox and Bucks perhaps?] .. or indeed does this mean the old location of 14th Div HQ on N side of Lizerolles - Montescourt? on W side of rail embankment?? if so there is perhaps less reason to search for a Rifle Brigade or KRRC link. Checking the 6th Somerset LI, they were largely destroyed but some remnants joined Brigade HQ and some 9th Scottish Rifles falling back on Jussy ' on the 23rd stiff hand to hand fighting took place with the enemy on the embankment'. By this stage no Majors of Somersets were left i think.. only the adjutant Captain Frampton.. One might perhaps think that if this photo is getting near to Jussy this was NOT a Major who had got back from one of the forward units which were so swiftly, and completely, swamped by the German advance..

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Mystery major brass buttons ? Or the way the lens has caught light reflected from black ones ?

I agree - looks like brass to me also.

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Jens - regardless of whether the mystery major is indeed a rifleman or not, these are fantastic photos from the other side of the Kaiserschlacht.

In the War Diaries the fate of the units surrounded, isolated and eventually captured by the German assault troops was largely unknown.

Andy and I have covered the KRRC and RB experiences in Operation Michael in several extensive Topics in the past, so it's extremely interesting to see images of the captured men. The Kaiserschlacht was particularly important for 14th (Light) and 20th (Light) Divisions - our particular interests.

Here's the pick of those topics ...

Covers 41, 42 and 43 brigade movements well ..
2 Lt M J Monaghan 7/Rifle Brigade 1918
Post #4 onwards

9/KRRC war diary transcribed (also includes the same map from the Official History already posted above)

Archibald Bolton KRRC 9TH BT
Post #15 onwards

9/RB war diary transcribed ..

9th Battalion - The Rifle Brigade
Post #7 onwards

Different division, but nevertheless interesting outline of the POW experiences of a rifleman from 11/KRRC captured near Ham on 24 Mar 1918
Rifleman Stanley Petty No 204642 11th Kings Royal Rifles

Once again - many thanks for sharing these pics!

Cheers,

Mark

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Battiscombe,

Why the KRRC & RB, solely as his rank is a Major and having gone through the P.O.W. lists for the then present units of the 14th Division, including war diaries, both Battalion and Divisional, the only units to have lost a Major as P.O.W.'s on 21st to 23rd March 1918 are the Rifle Brigade and the K.R.R.C.

The 6th Somerset L.I. had 3 Captains, 6 Lieutenants and 7 2nd Lieuts captured, 5th Oxs & Bucks L.I. 1 Major, however he was captured on 4/4/18 and died shortly afterwards. 9th Scottish Rifles 1 Lieutenant.

Units of the 14th Division were all over the place at this time with one or two companies of say the 9th RB or the 5th Oxs & Bucks L.I. being sent to re-inforce other units. Keep going through the unit material however I must say it is looking very likely to have been a K.R.R.C. officer.

What part of the 9th Scottish are you referring to, as 2 Companies of this unit were in reserve and were sent to the assistance of the 41st Brigade. Maybe we should look at the 5th Cavalry Brigade also then as they were used dismounted late on the 21st.

Must say though, what a great series of photographs.

Andy

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I knew we had some 14th (Light) Division battle patch info somewhere here on the Forum!

First though, here's Jens picture again ...

post-20192-0-70150200-1381744983_thumb.j

Image courtesy of Pal @KIR (Jens)

And now the gen on the KRRC and RB battalions in 14th (Light) Division, courtesy of Pal @Arthur from Major John Waring 'Cloth Formation Insignia' (Military Heraldry Society Identification Pamphlet) ...

41st Brigade

7th K.R.R.C.
Square Red 1½” sides Felt

8th K.R.R.C.
Inverted Triangle Red 2” sides Felt

7th Rifle Brigade
A Coy Square Black with Red Bar below Felt
B Coy Square Black with Yellow Bar below Felt
C Coy Square Black with Blue bar below Felt
D Coy Square Black with Black Bar below Felt

8th Rifle Brigade

Rectangle Black above Triangle Black Felt. Worn on the back.

H.Q. Coy Bar Black with Inverted Triangle halved

Black

Green above Felt. Also Worn on the back.

A Coy Bar Black with Inverted Triangle Red above Felt
B Coy Bar Black with Inverted Triangle Light Blue above Felt
C Coy Bar Black with Inverted Triangle Dark Green above Felt
D Coy Bar Black with Inverted Triangle Black above Felt

42nd Brigade

9th K.R.R.C.

H.Q, Coy Inverted Triangle halved

Red

Green over Light Green Bar Cotton.
A Coy Inverted Triangle Red 2“sides over Light Green Bar Cotton.
B Coy Inverted Triangle Blue 2“sides over Light Green Bar Cotton.
C Coy Inverted Triangle Light Green 2“sides over Light Green Bar Cotton.
D Coy Inverted Triangle Black 2“sides over Light Green Bar Cotton.

9th Rifle Brigade
Rectangle Khaki with two horizontal Black Bars Felt on felt

8/KRRC gets my vote despite his brass buttons.

... which coincidentally backs up Andy's tentative identification higher up ...

On 12/10/2013 at 17:41, stiletto_33853 said:
on the 21st Major L. Bowen and Major N.E. Barber both 8th KRRC were captured, both on the 21st
Andy

Cheers,

Mark

(Apologies this seemed to have got posted twice - have now deleted the rogue copy!)

Edited by MBrockway
Corrected mysterious right justified layout error
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Major NE Barber looks like Norman Elsdale Barber listed in WO 338 as belonging to 8/60 (8 Bn KRR) but his service record is still held by MoD due to him showing a P number in the index.

Major L Bowen could be Robert Leonard Bowen (incorrectly described in the TNA catalogue as Brown) If that really is an MC ribbon in the photo, this will be most likely be your man as he was awarded an MC in the 1918 New Year Honours Gazette and was presented with it on 10.4.19.

Mark, if you don't already hasve his papers, I can have a look in the next week or so.

Glen

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Difficualt to say, but does he have brass buttons (they seem to be shiny)? If so that may preclude him from being a Rifles officer, surely?

Although having blackened buttons is strong evidence that a soldier is from a rifles regiment, perversely having brass buttons does not necessarily mean a soldier cannot be in a rifles regiment.

Both Andy and I have examples of KRRC and RB men with brass buttons in Great war pics even as late as 1918.

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