Captured Major - Spring Offensive 1918

[MBrockway]

... as Benson was in the OTC

Bowen

[stiletto_33853]

oops, was looking at an RB officer called Benson this morning, addled brain, an ageist moment

Andy

[stiletto_33853]

Jens,

The research on this is still ongoing. Waiting for Eton and Wellington to come back to me regarding Barber but Mark has found some remarkable material re. Barber. Real life has a tendency to jump up and bite you, but hopefully we should be able to continue shortly.

Andy

[Pete Smith]

Jens

This is going off topic a little bit - ref your post on the Oct 14th where you attach the situation map showing the 145th's line of advance. It passes through Benay and Lambey Woods. My Great Uncle fought here as part of the 11th Kings Liverpool and attached is the map of the fortifications he'd helped build and defend. I'd be very interested if you you could forward me the 145ths diary for the 21st - it would be fascinating to read the other sides description of what happened. Also - would you know the identity of the German regiments on the right flank of the 30th as they cross the canal between Jussy and Flavey le Martel on the 23rd. My uncle was in the counter-attack that took place that morning in the triangle of land between the railway and canal.

Cheers

Peter

Benay Forts.pdf

[MBrockway]

Still unable to release the material on Barber, but in the meantime both Barber and Bowen are on this 8/KRRC officers group taken at Aldershot just before they went out in 1915, picture courtesy of Andy

[stiletto_33853]

Heard back from the archivist at Wellington, they on ly have an unamed group picture of him so on to Eton.

Andy

[stiletto_33853]

Here is the unamed picture from Wellington, they have a lot of material off site presently including their OTC pictures. The Archivist has promised that in the new year they will look through the OTC material.

So which one is Bowen

[PeterBowen]

On 15/10/2013 at 07:50, MBrockway said:

Major Robert Leonard BOWEN, 8/KRRC was a third generation rifleman. His father was killed at Ladysmith in 1900 with 2/KRRC in the Boer War. His grandfather was a Surgeon with 1/RB.

Bowen was an Oxford undergraduate in the 1911 Census and possibly a Wykehamist. [EDIT 23 Oct: Glen has since confirmed he was at Wellington College]

We already have a lot of family history on Bowen, and Andy and I are also hunting for more information on him from KRRC records to complete the biographical picture.

Not started on Major Barber yet :-).

I also note from Jen's extract from the IR 145 regimental history that a major and 200 men were captured after the storming of the JUSSY canal crossings on 23 March and that the photo of our major is dated 23/3/1918. Majors Bowen and Barber were both likely to have been captured on 21 March in the front line and battle zone around URVILERS though as you'll all have seen above, the 8/KRRC war diary breaks down between 21-27 March, so we can by no means be certain of dates and locations of the units that were captured. That of course does not preclude them from being interrogated by the regiment's CO on the 23rd, and the battle flash remains a very strong corroboration of 8/KRRC.

Hello, I thought I would enter here.

Robert Leonard Bowen was my grandfather's brother. My grandfather was John Lawrence Bowen who served in the Royal Scots Fusiliers and was also captured.

I have been going through some family papers and will post anything I can find relating to Robert Leonard known as Roy. He married but had no children. According to my mother, in later years he had no teeth, but found no difficulty eatng all food. In retirement he played bridge and went to Lords any day when cricket was played.

Peter Bowen in Tasmania

Edited 26 October , 2019 by PeterBowen
spelling mistake

[PeterBowen]

Major Robert Leonard BOWEN, 8/KRRC was a third generation rifleman. His father was killed at Ladysmith in 1900 with 2/KRRC in the Boer War. His grandfather was a Surgeon with 1/RB.

Bowen was an Oxford undergraduate in the 1911 Census and possibly a Wykehamist. [EDIT 23 Oct: Glen has since confirmed he was at Wellington College]

We already have a lot of family history on Bowen, and Andy and I are also hunting for more information on him from KRRC records to complete the biographical picture.

Not started on Major Barber yet :-).

I also note from Jen's extract from the IR 145 regimental history that a major and 200 men were captured after the storming of the JUSSY canal crossings on 23 March and that the photo of our major is dated 23/3/1918. Majors Bowen and Barber were both likely to have been captured on 21 March in the front line and battle zone around URVILERS though as you'll all have seen above, the 8/KRRC war diary breaks down between 21-27 March, so we can by no means be certain of dates and locations of the units that were captured. That of course does not preclude them from being interrogated by the regiment's CO on the 23rd, and the battle flash remains a very strong corroboration of 8/KRRC.

the grandfather of Robert Bowen , also Robert Bowen was Surgeon-General and was a survivor of the sinking of the RMS Birkenhead which sank off South Africa in 1852.

[PeterBowen]

Here is the unamed picture from Wellington, they have a lot of material off site presently including their OTC pictures. The Archivist has promised that in the new year they will look through the OTC material.

So which one is Bowen

this might be of interest. It is a photo of Robert Bowen, known in the family as Roy, possibly taken in Africa where he was an administrator

[KIR]

Hello,

I’m sorry and I apologize for my late response, but sometimes other important things in life (family, job, ...) happen and today a friend remind me about this story.

So I would like to thank subsequently all participants for your great support!

Thanks and best regards

Jens

[The Prussian]

Hello!

I´ve got a problem with N.E. Barber. I can´t find him in any army lists...

Can someone help me, please?

[The Prussian]

Again, I checked the army lists january-march 1918. No entry N.E.Barber found...

[MBrockway]

Again, I checked the army lists january-march 1918. No entry N.E.Barber found...

I'm not sure all wartime commissions (particularly in the service battalions) make it into the Army Lists?

You should find his commissioning and subsequent promotions in the London Gazette though. I have a few them downloaded at home, but am away just now.

Glen's summary of Barber's career should give you the LG dates to look up.

Why the importance of finding Barber in an Army List?

Cheers,

Mark

[The Prussian]

I'm not sure all wartime commissions (particularly in the service battalions) make it into the Army Lists?

You should find his commissioning and subsequent promotions in the London Gazette though. I have a few them downloaded at home, but am away just now.

Glen's summary of Barber's career should give you the LG dates to look up.

Why the importance of finding Barber in an Army List?

Cheers,

Mark

Hi Mark!

Probably it´s because of my prussian mentality... If he was an officer, he has to be mentioned in the list. I bought the army lists and I´d be disappointed, if they ´d not be complete

[MBrockway]

Hi Mark!

Probably it´s because of my prussian mentality... If he was an officer, he has to be mentioned in the list. I bought the army lists and I´d be disappointed, if they ´d not be complete

Andy,

Before you buy any more, be aware that a lot of those relevant to our period are available on-line from the National Library of Scotland.

See these links (which both reach the same material):

http://digital.nls.uk/british-military-lists/pageturner.cfm?id=97343435

http://archive.org/search.php?query=collection%3Anlsarmylists&sort=-publicdate

Cheers,

Mark

[The Prussian]

Ah. Thanks Mark. I bought an collection of those lists from 1913 -1919 on CD. 70.000 pages. ..

[The Prussian]

I still made differnt thoughts about that Major.

The photo is marked with 23.3. and Jussy.

Both, Bowen and Barber were captured 21.3. near Urvillers.

Did the germans put them with onto the british lines? Did they stil have their helmets two days after their capture?

I assume, the IR145 took the lines at Urvillers at 21.3., marched forward up to Jussy the 23.3. and captured the Major then and there.

 

The 9th bataillon/ of the Rifle Corps was at Jussy at that time!!! I bought the bataillon recordings but I couldn´t find any captures...

Edited 19 February , 2017 by The Prussian

[Jon1906]

Hello

I think I may(?) have the answer for you, or at least a strong candidate. Major George Dekin (sometimes spelled incorrectly Deakin in a couple of books I've seen) of the 11th Battalion Royal Fusiliers was captured at Jussy on the 23rd. He had an MC. He was 5 foot 11.5 inches tall. He is listed as "Temporary Major" on a form stamped 19/2/1919. He studied at Hackney College (University of London) but he appears to have been Welsh.

Major Dekin described his capture, "The Germans had penetrated our positions on the canal at JUSSY and I had launched two counter-attacks with a view to expelling them. I had a strong body of troops on my left flank who could bring an enfilade attack upon the Germans so I went forward to use these troops only to find that the Germans were already in occupation of the position. The morning was very misty and I had entered the village of JUSSY and was surrounded by Germans before I was made aware that my own men had been forced back. All communications had been severed by the previous artillery bombardment and the only way to employ the troops who had held our positions in the village involved my going forward personally to command them. I attribute the lack of information as to the development of the German attack to the above facts – lack of communication and very misty weather…I had only a runner with me at the time when I was taken. Jussy was then in the possession of the enemy."

Edited 14 October , 2018 by Jon1906

[Jon1906]

On 10/14/2013 at 8:32 AM, KIR said:

Gentlemen, thank you a lot for your answer and your great help!

... maybe the text from the regimental history IR145 is helpfull!? (sorry, too much text - so I used google-translate, hopefully it's understandable!?)

And a map. Thank you and best regards,

Jens

 

 Hello. I've been trying to find this passage, and I found the text of Das Königs-Infanterie-Regiment (6.Lothring.) Nr.145 im Grossen Kriege, 1914-1918 published 1922 (at the link). Frustratingly, despite its title, it ends with 1917 and doesn't cover 1918. Could you direct me to the 1918 text please? Thanks.

https://archive.org/details/bub_gb_HXfHAAAAMAAJ/page/n417

Update: I realize that 1918 is in volume 2. Would it be possible to scan the relevant pages for March 22nd/23rd attack on Jussy and put them here, if you have a copy of the book?

Edited 14 October , 2018 by Jon1906

[MBrockway]

2 hours ago, Jon1906 said:

 Hello. I've been trying to find this passage, and I found the text of Das Königs-Infanterie-Regiment (6.Lothring.) Nr.145 im Grossen Kriege, 1914-1918 published 1922 (at the link). Frustratingly, despite its title, it ends with 1917 and doesn't cover 1918. Could you direct me to the 1918 text please? Thanks.

https://archive.org/details/bub_gb_HXfHAAAAMAAJ/page/n417

Update: I realize that 1918 is in volume 2. Would it be possible to scan the relevant pages for March 22nd/23rd attack on Jussy and put them here, if you have a copy of the book?

 

Jon,

Pal KIR last visited the forum on 09 Feb 2016.  It's doubtful he will reply to your request unless you send him a Forum Personal Message.

 

The full title of the online version of Isenburg's KIR145 history that you have found is Das Königs-Infanterie-Regiment (6. Lothring.) Nr. 145 im Großen Kriege 1914–1918 - Band I: Von der Mobilmachung bis zum Abtransport zur Cambraischlacht (21. November 1917) hence ending in Nov 1917

 

You want 'Band 2': Vom Eintreffen im Gebiet der 2. Armee (22. November 1917) bis zur Demobilmachung und Auflösung

 

As far as I can see 'Band 2' of Isenburg's KIR145 unit history is NOT available online anywhere.

 

Pal KIR's albeit loose translation in Post #59 does contain the substance of the Jussy attack from Volume 2 of the book.

 

If you want the original German, you'll most likely need to find a library copy.

 

 

 

 

[Jon1906]

Hi Brockway. 

Thanks for the advice. I've put in an inter-library loan request. I'll also PM our Mr KIR.

 

[MBrockway]

 

 

On 14/10/2018 at 09:40, Jon1906 said:

Hello

I think I may(?) have the answer for you, or at least a strong candidate. Major George Dekin (sometimes spelled incorrectly Deakin in a couple of books I've seen) of the 11th Battalion Royal Fusiliers was captured at Jussy on the 23rd. He had an MC. He was 5 foot 11.5 inches tall. He is listed as "Temporary Major" on a form stamped 19/2/1919. He studied at Hackney College (University of London) but he appears to have been Welsh.

Major Dekin described his capture, "The Germans had penetrated our positions on the canal at JUSSY and I had launched two counter-attacks with a view to expelling them. I had a strong body of troops on my left flank who could bring an enfilade attack upon the Germans so I went forward to use these troops only to find that the Germans were already in occupation of the position. The morning was very misty and I had entered the village of JUSSY and was surrounded by Germans before I was made aware that my own men had been forced back. All communications had been severed by the previous artillery bombardment and the only way to employ the troops who had held our positions in the village involved my going forward personally to command them. I attribute the lack of information as to the development of the German attack to the above facts – lack of communication and very misty weather…I had only a runner with me at the time when I was taken. Jussy was then in the possession of the enemy."

 

Here's Jens' photo again ...

Image courtesy of Pal @KIR

 

The lack of collar dogs and the unit insignia have previously been judged to rule out fusiliers.  See ...

 

On 11/10/2013 at 11:39, Stoppage Drill said:

The "inverted triangle" which I have seen painted on to helmets by some fusilier battalions was larger and with a fanned top. Lots of Malins images showing 1 Lancs Fusiliers.

I have seen Guards paint a representation of their bearskin plume in exactly the straight edged triangular form depicted in the photos above. A single colour plume on the left would make him a Grenadier, though their plume is white. Maybe they subdued it ? He doesn't seem to be wearing collar dogs, . . . .

 

 

The KRRC and the Rifle Brigade are one of the few regiments whose officers do not wear collar badges.  While the triangle is a good match for 8/KRRC.  See ...

 

On 14/10/2013 at 11:11, MBrockway said:

I knew we had some 14th (Light) Division battle patch info somewhere here on the Forum!

 

courtesy of Pal @Arthur from Major John Waring 'Cloth Formation Insignia' (Military Heraldry Society Identification Pamphlet) ...

 

41st Brigade

7th K.R.R.C.
Square Red 1½” sides Felt

8th K.R.R.C.
Inverted Triangle Red 2” sides Felt

42nd Brigade

9th K.R.R.C.

H.Q, Coy Inverted Triangle halved Red & Green over Light Green Bar Cotton.
A Coy Inverted Triangle Red 2“sides over Light Green Bar Cotton.
B Coy Inverted Triangle Blue 2“sides over Light Green Bar Cotton.
C Coy Inverted Triangle Light Green 2“sides over Light Green Bar Cotton.
D Coy Inverted Triangle Black 2“sides over Light Green Bar Cotton.

8/KRRC gets my vote despite his brass buttons.

... which coincidentally backs up Andy's tentative identification higher up ...

Cheers,

Mark

 

I'm not a specialist in the various fusilier regiments.

 

Would Major Dekin/Deakin have taken off his collar dogs when in the battle zone?  Are the triangular helmet mark and shoulder flash a known RF insignia?

 

Mark

 

Edited 15 October , 2018 by MBrockway

[charlie2]

10 hours ago, Jon1906 said:

Hi Brockway. 

Thanks for the advice. I've put in an inter-library loan request. I'll also PM our Mr KIR.

 

 

If you do not have any luck with an inter-library loan, an electronic copy of Band 2 can be purchased here for 5€

https://military-books.lima-city.de/hp20/145.html  

 

Charlie

 

[MBrockway]

Just found this from Pal @Arthur detailing the RF flashes (I've snipped out the non relevant sections) ...

 

On 10/06/2009 at 13:31, Arthur said:

 

Royal Fusilier Battalions:

<snip>

 

Royal Fusiliers a11th Red inverted triangle with black border worn by Officers and W.Os’ felt on felt

Royal Fusiliers b11th Red arc with navy blue border, worn by O/Rs’ Felt

<snip>

Hope this answers your query.

Regards

Arthur

 

 

There is definitely a hint of a dark edge to the triangle in Jens' photo, so Major Dekin/Deakin is clearly a strong candidate.

 

Can we resolve whether RF officers took off their collar dogs and any other regimental insignia (grenade on epaulette perhaps?) when in the battle zone?  Or possibly when captured?

 

Mark