My climb up Hartmannsweilerkopf (HWK)

[egbert]

This panorama picture is taken on summit plateau at 950m altitude. I am standing exactly in first French line, looking to wards Feste Dora.

Red= French lines, Blue= German lines, with only a narrow No-Mans-Land of less than 10m in between. In the background , appr. some 130m, you will find the steep incline from which I originally climbed up and from where you can oversee the vast Rhine valley plains

[egbert]

Not quite the exact position, but just about the same location at Feste Dora. View from the German lines to wards the French lines. Somewhere here in the cluster of trenches and rubble is famous Dora-sap.

Post war image.

[ph0ebus]

The lines there were only 10m apart?! Wow.

-Daniel

[Dragon]

Re your question inviting comments.

Firstly, I am enjoying the thread. I just have too much going on at the moment sorting out two dead people's houses so that my brain is simply overwhelmed and doesn't want to do anything too serious.

A couple of days ago, when I discussed HWK matters with my French friend, per email and on French WWI forum, he first learned from my thread here and questioned me with a certain astonished undertone why I am doing this HWK picture effort on a British forum, because they (Brits) traditionally show no interests in this area and only think that the Grande Guerre took place exclusively at the Somme and Flanders.

Your French friend is displaying the sort of Gallic arrogance which really gets British people annoyed. We are well aware that the Great War took place along an extensive European frontier and in other parts of the world too. What, exactly, are the French doing to make it possible for people to become more familiar with the war as it affected Alsace and the Vosges? There is hardly any material in English, most websites designed for tourists are in French and German, personal websites are naturally written in the author's native language. Material which is translated into English is often badly written (and I refer to tourist material here). There are now information plaques in key places, but they are in French and German. I am aware that there are moves to produce a little English language material, but up until now, there has been virtually none. It's about time that the French grasped the idea that a significant number of people in the world, and importantly, on the world wide web, do not read French.

I have reached where I am because I've been exploring Alsace and the Vosges for 25 years and I can read and speak French. I have no idea where I would start if I didn't.

The point that many English-speaking people don't know where the Vosges are is important. I have come across someone who genuinely thought Alsace was somewhere near Amsterdam. I have eaten meals with French people from Paris who think that Alsace is in Germany. So the expectation is that British people, whose ancestors fought mainly in north west France, ought to be interested in somewhere which even French people can't identify? Why should British and American hobbyists take much of an interest in an area where few British and American men spent their war? They have nothing to relate to.

Having said that, I think it is desirable for those people who describe themselves as amateur historians to have a wider focus than F&F. What happened in Alsace and Lorraine from 1870 explains the vigour and the desperation with which the French fought the war. Human suffering, human heroism and human day-to-day boredom in the Vosges was as potent as that in the areas of the front where the British fought. There is a lot to interest historians here and my concept is to try to make the unfamiliar approachable.

For those intrigued by battlefield archaeology, the Vosges offers a rare opportunity to see history preserved. Your threads, and I hope my own, take those who cannot be there on a journey of discovery, complemented by photographic evidence from the time.

Therefore, I think your thread is important. You are not going to like this suggestion, but to get noticed and attract readers online requires self-promotion. It may be unpalatable to some, but I’m afraid it’s usually true. If your thread is intended to be a reference, a resource, a good read, which it is, you perhaps need to raise its profile outside the GWF. You could start a Twitter feed: there are thousands of Twitter historians who would love to see your travels but who (amazingly) do not belong to the GWF. Attract followers, tweet when you’ve updated, provide links because this thread is visible to non-members. Join the GWF group on Facebook and tell everyone who will listen that your thread is fabulous.

I also think – and I know you disagree – that a sub-forum on the war in North East France would raise the profile of key areas such as the Vosges and Verdun.

I wouldn’t change your thread in any way (except perhaps consider including the current place names where you can). The silent readers appreciate the wealth of information and vivid illustrations. I would just tell more people to come and see it.

Gwyn

[egbert]

The lines there were only 10m apart?! Wow.

-Daniel

Yes Daniel, and if you go back to the panorama image and look for the big tree at the end of the blue line, that's appr. where "Weihnachtsgraben"(=Christmas trench) starts and history tells that the trench got it's name when a German soldier played his mouth organ at Christmas and a short truce was observed by both parties opposing each other at such short distance..

[Dragon]

The section after Karlsfeste and the kitchen is where we got lost! We needed to retrace our steps after a section where you go underground, but made a mistake in the choice of exit. As you show, the trench walls are so high you can't see above them, and it was growing dusk. There wasn't a living person for miles around. After a scary few minutes, we saw something which we recognised and could re-orientate ourselves.

I have some pictures of WW2 graffiti from the kitchen.

What is the roofless structure on the opposite side of the path from the kitchen - there are several small rooms with doors and windows. A rest area?

Gwyn

[egbert]

Gwyn you have posted a lot of good points to consider.

I shall not comment on the French-English issue. But I have these answers on the thread issue - sadly I am a person that refuses to open an account on Facebook, while I see that I am the only family member that has none. Also I do not twitter at all, maybe I am paranoid w/r to internet security. I will though try to better explain where I took the pictures. There are many English-written HWK threads to include trip reports up and around the mountain. So they are out there in the www. My petitum as a first day member of the GWF is to bring such a report forward exclusively for GWF.

The roofless structure near the kitchen was the 1943 billet of SS General Osswald and staff who was the commander of the trench warfare school "Grabenschule" as explained earlier with the kitchen picture. This house, called "Osswaldhütte" was used as alternative housing when they practised mountain- and trench warfare here on HWK slopes.

For more understanding I shall add a map, what I covered so far and what is next until lunch break.

[Dragon]

Thanks for the explanation about the billet.

I think your threads are important. My thinking was based on the fact that several times on GWF people who want to know more about the war in that area have asked for recommendations of texts written in English. I'm struggling to think of any. I asked at the research centre Abri-Mémoire at Uffholtz when I was there and they couldn't think of any. So how can people who want to read in depth start?

As a British person, I sometimes encounter the attitude, "Why are you interested? It isn't your war." And it isn't. One feels like an intruder. If the French really want English speakers to know more about 'their' war in the Vosges they could start by putting in place more translations. (I know there have been some moves towards this in some places.)

Literature often brings people to read about the war. You may also find that people come to look at your thread after they have read about HWK or the Vosges in accounts like Fear (Gabriel Chevallier) and Letters from a Chasseur à Pied (Robert Pellissier). Both are available in translation and very approachable.

Gwyn

[Tony Ring]

egbert

I could watch these all day. Please keep posting !!!!!

Tony

[mandy hall]

Keep posting Egbert. Thanks to yours and Gwyn's threads I chose to go the Vosges for my main holiday this year. My holiday thread was nowhere near the standard of yours and Seans.

Mandy

[egbert]

Thanks Mandy and Tony. Meanwhile I crossed from Feste Dora through No-Mans-Land into the French held positions. The following pictures all show the French side. As you can see on the trench map in post #394, I walk some distance back direction SE, always parallel to No-Mans-Land until later when I cross No-Mans-Land again and reach German fortress "Bremer Ratskeller".

Opposite Feste Dora is a unique French structure, an armored observer position. It is the last remaining of formerly a total of 3 observer posts.

[egbert]

Post war picture from the 20s. Vegetation claims the mountain back-view to wards German line

[egbert]

In contrast to the German trenches, most French trenches were not built as durable and solid with concrete and walled stones. The wooden sidings and reinforcements all decayed and the earth falls back into the former trenches. This is the French front line trench opposing Weihnachtsgraben (Christmas trench) . German lines 10-15 m to the left.

[egbert]

The same positon, turning South. This is a demarkation stone that shows the farthest German advance in this section. The bushes in the background hide "Molkenrain" mountain where the French located considerable numbers of artillery, covering the HWK.

NOW

[egbert]

.....and without vegetation in the 20s

THEN

[egbert]

Continuing and following the first French firing trench , a personnel shelter peers out of the grass........

[egbert]

.....while the trench itself decays more and more in contrast to the barbed wire and chevau-de-frise that will survive another century. German line to the left, the cluster of trees in the background is already 2nd German line. Somewhere here the French heard the German soldier playing his mouth organ Christmas 1915 and for a short while stopped firing at each other.

[egbert]

Should have posted this trenchmap earlier when I posted the French observation post. So here it is for your orientation

[keithjk]

Egbert. I, and obviously a lot of others, find this thread (and others by both you and Dragon) absolutely fascinating. Yes, there are British visitors to the Western Front who seem tethered by an imaginary rope that won't allow them to go further south than the Somme. But there are others amongst us who are interested in the 'French' areas as well. Your hard work producing this thread is greatly appreciated by me. My knowledge of the area has been much-improved. Thank you so much.

Keith

[Dragon]

I think the comparison with the contemporary photos is particularly interesting. Some of the early photos are hard to come by.

Gwyn

[roel22]

Egbert, this is one of the best threads I've read in years.

I've never read much about the fighting in this region, but your photo's and your explanation make me come back.

Never knew fortifications like this were ever built there, with so much still remaining.

Roel

[tim_oz]

egbert

Having been away a few weeks it been a real joy to catch up with this thread again having read a bit about the fighting here your posts have given me a much greater understanding of the layout of the mountain and what both sides must have faced. Please don't think your not appreciated.

Tim B

[egbert]

Thanks guys for your kind words and welcome back lost sheep.

Still meandering through the French first lines, parallel to No-Mans-Land.

The French summit trenches here, throughout 1918......

[egbert]

.....look more or less like these early war 1914/15 German painting of summit trenches. In contrast to the French the Germans , starting 15/16 , reinforced their systems to the delight of the 2012 visitor, who can see much more of how and what kind of infrastructure was in use during the GW.

[egbert]

French embrasure......