spconnolly007 Posted 27 October , 2012 Share Posted 27 October , 2012 More great photos egbert, I feel tired just looking at your walk I shall catch up next weekend when I return from Verdun/Alsace. Hopefully, I will have a few interesting photos to post myself!! Regards Sean Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
egbert Posted 27 October , 2012 Author Share Posted 27 October , 2012 ....and a perfect photo from post war. Note the first tourist paths show up..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
egbert Posted 27 October , 2012 Author Share Posted 27 October , 2012 Post war photo. Never ever will there be a tall and dense fur tree- forest again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
egbert Posted 27 October , 2012 Author Share Posted 27 October , 2012 Turning around by 180 degrees from summit cross, now looking West. This is part of the summit position and its fortresses. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
egbert Posted 27 October , 2012 Author Share Posted 27 October , 2012 Sean have fun in the Vosges! There are still some 150 photos to come for this part I, continuing with summit infrastructure. The next batch will not come before in 4 weeks from now, as I will be on a ship tomorrow, crossing the Atlantic Ocean with satellite internet connection too expensive for the picture-posting here. . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spconnolly007 Posted 27 October , 2012 Share Posted 27 October , 2012 Thanks egbert, and I hope you enjoy crossing the Atlantic Ocean Sean Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mandy hall Posted 27 October , 2012 Share Posted 27 October , 2012 Have a great trip Egbert, see you back here in 4 weeks. Mandy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dragon Posted 27 October , 2012 Share Posted 27 October , 2012 Extremely interesting photos, Egbert. Thanks for your efforts. Gwyn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roel22 Posted 27 October , 2012 Share Posted 27 October , 2012 Can't wait for more pics - meanwhile: bon voyage, Egbert! Roel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Ring Posted 28 October , 2012 Share Posted 28 October , 2012 egbert Thank you.... Bon voyage.. Hurry back as I want to see more. Tony Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keithjk Posted 28 October , 2012 Share Posted 28 October , 2012 Have a good trip Egbert. Wave as you pass England. Keith Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
egbert Posted 20 November , 2012 Author Share Posted 20 November , 2012 (*For those who aren't aware, Hartmannswillerkopf or Hartmannsweilerkopf is the German name for a place which became known as le Vieil Armand to the French troops. Hartmannswiller is a village near Soultz.) Hanns Killian a veteran of the battles on HWK explained in his book about the HWK that the name "Vieil Armand" is a nomenclature first used by French journalists and politicians after the war.They changed the names of German towns, villages and mountain peaks to more francophonic names and thus manifest the recapture of the Alsace province for France. Quote:" Vieil Armand was never used by any German nor french soldier (28 B.C.A.). The enemy always referred to L'Hartmann", end of quote. My French Alsatian friends also talk of " L'Hartmann" today. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keithjk Posted 20 November , 2012 Share Posted 20 November , 2012 Welcome back Egbert. I hope you enjoyed your trip Keith Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dragon Posted 20 November , 2012 Share Posted 20 November , 2012 I was trying to help people who are unfamiliar with the area. I took my information from Guide Michelin l'Alsace et les combats du Vosges, Vol, 1, pub 1920, which says, 'L'Hartmannswillerkopf, (956 mètres), le "Vieil-Armand", le "H.W.K." comme on l'appelé au cours de la guerre ...'; and from an old postcard of HWK which is captioned, 'Autour de l'Hartmannswillerkopf, appelé le "Vieil-Armand" par nos poilus'. I think it's a brave person who can say that something was 'never' used. The French people in the Sundgau who introduced me to Vieil-Armand called it that. Your French friends call it l'Hartmann. There are two names in use. What is important in a thread about an unfamilar battlefield is that readers can find where it is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveMarsdin Posted 20 November , 2012 Share Posted 20 November , 2012 The French people in the Sundgau who introduced me to Vieil-Armand called it that. Your French friends call it l'Hartmann. There are two names in use. What is important in a thread about an unfamilar battlefield is that readers can find where it is. I agree Gwyn but from Egbert's perspective the 28e BCA JMO does refer to the Germanic spelling: I'm looking forward to more descriptive Vosges posts from both of you ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spconnolly007 Posted 20 November , 2012 Share Posted 20 November , 2012 Welcome back egbert, that was a quick 4 weeks!! You can catch up on my Verdun trip Sean. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveMarsdin Posted 20 November , 2012 Share Posted 20 November , 2012 ...and just to highlight Gwyn's point, this extract is from a French book published in 1917, clearly referring to the French name during the war: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dragon Posted 20 November , 2012 Share Posted 20 November , 2012 (edited) I agree Gwyn but from Egbert's perspective the 28e BCA JMO does refer to the Germanic spelling: From my perspective, I was perplexed why a remark I made over a month ago, six pages back, should suddenly give cause for criticism. In the past there have been questions on the GWF about whether Hartmannswillerkopf and le Vieil-Armand are the same place. In the post which was evidently considered worth resurrecting, I was simply saying that they are. As far as I'm concerned they can call it Glastonbury Tor as long as people who are trying to learn something know where it is. If people search on one name and it isn't mentioned in the thread or tags, they won't find it. L'Abri-Mémoire at Uffholtz uses both placenames. I didn't see that there was anything so controversial about saying that the place is known by two names. Maybe it partially depends on which language the speaker is using. I can't speak German, so local people have to use French to me. It's not a competition to be more correct. In that same post I also happily acknowledged that Egbert knows far more about HWK than I do. With the amount of interest threads on the Vosges generate, I usually wonder why I have bothered anyway, I really do. Gwyn Edit: the forum software wasn't accepting diacritics. It seems to now. If it's rendering without the acute in Mémoire I know it's meant to be there. Edited 20 November , 2012 by Dragon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keithjk Posted 20 November , 2012 Share Posted 20 November , 2012 The important thing is that the IGN Blue map, which any sensible visitor will be using, shows both names Keith Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveMarsdin Posted 20 November , 2012 Share Posted 20 November , 2012 With the amount of interest threads on the Vosges generate, I usually wonder why I have bothered anyway, I really do. Gwyn Gwyn, I think you bother because, like Egbert, you're passionate about the area ! I gave two contemporary French references to both names, Keith points out that the current IGN guide shows both names, I think it is important that we are aware of them Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
egbert Posted 20 November , 2012 Author Share Posted 20 November , 2012 Wow. I only referred to the e-book "Totentanz am Hartmannsweilerkopf" (footnote page 62) which I read on the high seas, nothing more. well, I will continue posting the pictures from summit positions and Northern flank when I am back home next week. Today still some 9000km away from Hartmannsweilerkopf/L'Hartmann/Vieil Armand..... and the Verdun thread which I will definitely read . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
egbert Posted 20 November , 2012 Author Share Posted 20 November , 2012 Uh, there is one more thing I want you to understand and what I read in the above mentioned book. The HWK and its summit was a total jungle of impenetrable brushwood with huge acorn-and tall fur trees it is said. Even today no traces of the once so proud forest. The summit which was held by French alpine forces since mid -December 1914 was well defended by hidden tree top sharp-shooters and the Germans could only take their positions in January 1915 with support of 17cm Minenwerfer which crushed the tall trees and the hidden forest redoubt. So keep that in mind when you see the next batch of pictures. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roel22 Posted 21 November , 2012 Share Posted 21 November , 2012 Can't wait Egbert... Roel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keithjk Posted 22 November , 2012 Share Posted 22 November , 2012 Bring it on Egbert Keith Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
egbert Posted 27 November , 2012 Author Share Posted 27 November , 2012 Yes, it is time to continue the thread. By now I climbed up to the summit positions, reaching the edge of the summit plateau which roughly has the size of a 400m x 300m x 200m triangle. as I said the plateau once was heavily forested and you will see some old tree stumps on the THEN pictures which will follow. The German summit positions are all connected not only by a clever trench system but also by a network of underground hallways, galleries and tunnels. Several summit fortresses connect with each other underground. The following series of pictures all show my favorite Feste (fortress), called "Feste Großherzog". For orientation I start with a post war picture that shows part of the summit plateau. Marked is the position of Feste Großherzog and the black frame shows approximately the next modern day shot I took while approaching the fortress Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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