egbert Posted 25 October , 2012 Author Share Posted 25 October , 2012 Here is the entrance to the aerial cableway, technical cavern, upper station Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keithjk Posted 25 October , 2012 Share Posted 25 October , 2012 I have wondered about the potential for Eastern France - Verdun, Vosges, Alsace, Swiss border - to have a forum of its own. That, to my mind, reflects and respects the fact that the Western Front was fought over by French and German men on a far wider length than the section the British occupied. That way people who are interested in the area will have a resource devoted to it. Fortunately Gwyn, there are plenty of us 'Brits' who do appreciate that the Western Front didn't end at St. Quentin. I think it would be a shame to split the Forum, as I look forward to reading items from all sections of the WF, be it Ypres or Salonika. I have visited all areas, from Ostend to Gallipoli, and regard it all as one long line of trenches. And as what happened at one end often affected the other end, it needs to be looked at as a whole. I think the main reason for perhaps less interest in the area Verdun/Lorraine/Alsace is the relative scarcity of publications in English covering the war there. You and Egbert, amongst others, are doing a lot to redress that problem. If you moved to another Forum, the cloud of obscurity would descend upon us again. Keith Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
egbert Posted 25 October , 2012 Author Share Posted 25 October , 2012 This is how the place looked like immediately post war Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
egbert Posted 25 October , 2012 Author Share Posted 25 October , 2012 Now- for the next three photos I am ashamed of showing them as my imperfect pictures can not match Gwyn's two last almost professional pictures from post# 245 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dragon Posted 25 October , 2012 Share Posted 25 October , 2012 I'll edit my labels. Thanks! Keith, I meant a sub-forum within the GWF, eg within Battles, battlefields and places. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
egbert Posted 25 October , 2012 Author Share Posted 25 October , 2012 This in fact is the brake mechanism of the upper station aerial cable way Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
egbert Posted 25 October , 2012 Author Share Posted 25 October , 2012 Even the carrier pinion is still up there in the technical cavern Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
egbert Posted 25 October , 2012 Author Share Posted 25 October , 2012 I am standing in front of the upper station and have marked the overgrown forest aisle, the aerial cable way once used to reach lower station "Gaede" in the plains Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
egbert Posted 25 October , 2012 Author Share Posted 25 October , 2012 I think this slightly zoomed picture shows the altitude difference the cable way had to overcome much better Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keithjk Posted 25 October , 2012 Share Posted 25 October , 2012 I'll edit my labels. Thanks! Keith, I meant a sub-forum within the GWF, eg within Battles, battlefields and places. That's good Gwyn, we would hate to lose you and your marvellous threads Keith Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dragon Posted 26 October , 2012 Share Posted 26 October , 2012 Thanks, Keith. I hope Egbert doesn't mind, but as this area is so little known, I thought it might be helpful to have a contemporary 'birds' eye' postcard showing what the terrain is like. I've arrowed Hartmannswillerkopf. The plain at the bottom of the postcard is the edge of the Rhine plain and the Rhine is several miles "behind" the picture-maker. At the time, most of Alsace was annexed to Germany - renamed Reichsland Elsaß-Lothringen - ceded in the Treaty of Frankfurt, 1871, and the dotted line on the horizon roughly shows the frontier with France. So Egbert's pictures showing the Rhine plain are looking across then German-occupied Alsace back to Germany. Thus the place names on this contemporary card are the German names of the time. From left to right, you can see Thann, then A [Altthann] is Vieux Thann, U [uffolz] is Uffholtz, S'm [sennheim] is Cernay, W [Wattweiler] is Wattwiller, S [sulz] is Soultz (Haut-Thin) and G [Gebweiler] is Guebwiller. Hartmannsweilerkopf is Hartmannswillerkopf or Vieil Armand. I hope this is helpful for contextualising. I've come across people including users of this forum who mistakenly think that the frontier at that time was the Rhine, which it wasn't. The German troops had a great advantage in being able to access supplies directly from Germany and convey them up into the mountains using the infrastructure of the sort that Egbert's most recent photos show. Gwyn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CROONAERT Posted 26 October , 2012 Share Posted 26 October , 2012 Thus the place names on this contemporary card are the German names of the time. ... ... [sennheim] is Cernay... Yeah, yeah, rub it in! (I spent two years trying to find a trenchmap depicting Cernay (initially wanting to find the 'House of Idiots' (very apt for me in this tale!) and the name (if it had one) of the bunker in the woods behind the football stadium...also the exact frontline positions at the foot of the hills) only to discover that, after all my hunting, my French 'Sennheim' trenchmap of 1917 - that I'd had for a couple of years previously - showed exactly what I'd , unsuccessfully, been trawling various archives for!!!! ) Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CROONAERT Posted 26 October , 2012 Share Posted 26 October , 2012 I hope this is helpful for contextualising. I've come across people including users of this forum who mistakenly think that the frontier at that time was the Rhine, which it wasn't. This might also assist? The French/German border in the area 1871-1918 (coloured bits are the parts of Germany that used to be France prior to the 4th War of German Unification 1870-71 (now, its not called that very often these days is it? )... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ph0ebus Posted 26 October , 2012 Share Posted 26 October , 2012 Hi egbert, all, Beyond impressed with the education I am getting from this thread, and also hoping one day to get the chance to see all this in person. -Daniel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
egbert Posted 26 October , 2012 Author Share Posted 26 October , 2012 Gwyn your landscape postcard is superb and of real help for orientation, of course Dave's map as well. Dan, before you become depressed here is the next series. I am approaching the summit, but before the last climb up, the mighty "Aussichtsfelsen" ( name of a rock formation) shows up, some 10 meters below summit fortifications. Including "Aussichtsfelsen", a row of interconnected deep bored fortresses line up that stretch well beyond summit. They are several stories deep and all are linked either by subterranean hallways, galleries and above ground communication-, supply- and fire trenches. If somebody wants to explore these, you need several hours only for that purpose. The following post war picture can not show the enormousness of fortresses, and only shows entrance structures. Anyway, this is my climb up and we now approach Aussichtsfelsen. After the war , the French built a pompous memorial relief to the French troops "Blue Devils" up there, but this front sections always remained in German hands from 1915-18. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
egbert Posted 26 October , 2012 Author Share Posted 26 October , 2012 This is "Aussichtsfelsen"- THEN. You recognize the massive rock face to which the French later attached the said relief. If you can locate the 4 windows/embrasures in the rock -that's where today's memorial relief stands. Rock formation "Aussichtsfelsen" , also known as "Stützpunkt 11", was the backbone of the German summit front line and comprised of a conglomerate of fortresses "Feste Ratz", "Bastion Mengelbier" and "Feste Großherzog", including radio communication- and weather station, listening command post, all equipped with 6 MG's and defensive high voltage wires. I want to attract your attention to the very left side structure, where you can see an entrance to a mighty fortress -"Feste Ratz" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
egbert Posted 26 October , 2012 Author Share Posted 26 October , 2012 Now, Feste Ratz' entrance looks like that: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
egbert Posted 26 October , 2012 Author Share Posted 26 October , 2012 "Feste Ratz" was named after OLt (First Lieutenant) Ratz, commander 2./Landwehr-Pionier-Kompanie 14 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
egbert Posted 26 October , 2012 Author Share Posted 26 October , 2012 Proceeding from Ratz' entrance towards the rock formation with today's French memorial relief Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
egbert Posted 26 October , 2012 Author Share Posted 26 October , 2012 I am standing right in front of the memorial that today covers the old signal intercept station and look down into the Rhein River plain with town of Sultz visible in this panorama view Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
egbert Posted 26 October , 2012 Author Share Posted 26 October , 2012 Same standpoint Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
egbert Posted 26 October , 2012 Author Share Posted 26 October , 2012 Town of Sulz, zoomed in from memorial location....... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
egbert Posted 26 October , 2012 Author Share Posted 26 October , 2012 .......and vice versa, looking up to HWK from pre-war town of Sulz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
egbert Posted 26 October , 2012 Author Share Posted 26 October , 2012 One of the openings which lead deep inside the fortresses of rock formation "Aussichtsfelsen" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
egbert Posted 26 October , 2012 Author Share Posted 26 October , 2012 Another one Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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