Lancashire Fusilier Posted 15 May , 2015 Author Share Posted 15 May , 2015 I hope this isn't too far off topic but it is transport related! Someone I know is creating some WW1-era narrow-gauge locos and wagons for the game Train Simulator 2015. He has given the wagons an identification symbol that he's seen in some photos but doesn't know the significance so i thought I'd ask the oracle that is the GWF. :-D The mark is a triangle containing three dots set in line with the corners. Is this a Divisional or Army sign, does anyone know? Keith Keith, Is it possible to see a diagram of this sign/emblem, or better still the photograph showing the sign/emblem actually in use ? Regards, LF Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GRANVILLE Posted 15 May , 2015 Share Posted 15 May , 2015 One of the key roles of the Army Ordnance Corps ( AOC ) was the maintenance and repair of the Army's vast weapons stocks, using both the AOC Mobile Workshops and also the permanent AOC workshops located at the various AOC Depots. This photograph shows an AOC Mobile Workshop mounted on a Thornycroft J-Type Lorry, behind which can be seen the side of the wood panelled Stores Lorry which accompanied the Mobile Workshop. LF IWM This image is reproduced strictly for non-commercial research and private study purposes as permitted under the Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988, as amended and revised. Great photos as ever. David Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rockdoc Posted 15 May , 2015 Share Posted 15 May , 2015 This is an image he's posted of his model wagons that shows the symbol. https://flic.kr/p/sVi2D7 Keith Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sp762 Posted 16 May , 2015 Share Posted 16 May , 2015 G'day. I am he. Attachment is from Taylorson: Narrow gauge at War vol 2, Plateway press, 1996, P 56. To see a larger version, please click http://http://www.trainsimdev.com/forum/gallery/image.php?album_id=125&image_id=4191&mode=thumbnail This is a part of a view of the Canadian Tramway yard near Villers-le-Bretonneux, in the 1st Army area. I'd say it's in 1917. By this stage there were very few A and B wagons in use, because the larger capacity D and F wagons were so much more flexible. In fact, I must have amassed nearly 200 pages of photos over the years, and this is one of two that show a B or A wagon in the field. The wagon is question is no. 605 - a "B" class wagon to right of shot. Immediately ahead of it is a pair of A class wagons converted to a bolster pair - which I only just noticed! When I was doing Army training in the late eighties (in Australia) that sign was quite commonly seen on the tailboard of trucks. Our sergeant at the time told me that it was for use when driving at night with dimmed lights - because it makes the vehicle in front easier to see. If there's another reason, I'd love to hear it. While I'm asking, I know that Fifth army marked their wagons with a Roman "V". Did the other armies do similar things? Regards Mike in Australia Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rockdoc Posted 16 May , 2015 Share Posted 16 May , 2015 Welcome, Mike. In the UK, you used to see triangular mouldings filled with small, round, red reflectors - rather like red Rowntree's fruit gums (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/08/Rowntrees-Fruit-Gums.jpg) - on the back of lorries into the sixties. They disappeared once Scotchlite reflective markers became available but when vehicle lighting was much weaker than today they would have served to catch the headlights of vehicles approaching from behind. That's fair enough but I cannot imagine why they'd be used on railway wagons. Keith Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lancashire Fusilier Posted 16 May , 2015 Author Share Posted 16 May , 2015 Great photos as ever. David David, You are becoming the photo colouring expert. Regards, LF Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lancashire Fusilier Posted 16 May , 2015 Author Share Posted 16 May , 2015 The wagon is question is no. 605 - a "B" class wagon to right of shot. Mike in Australia Mike, Welcome to the Forum, and to this Thread. That is an excellent photograph, and the triangular marking on wagon No.605 could well be the answer to Keith's question, which from a distance, could look like 3 dots in a triangle. Vehicles of all sorts were routinely marked with Divisional or Unit insignia, so I assume such markings would have also been used on railway rolling stock. Here is a photograph, showing a lorry tailgate marking belonging to the Second Guards Division moving up troops troops for the Battle of Arras. LF IWM This image is reproduced strictly for non-commercial research and private study purposes as permitted under the Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988, as amended and revised. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lancashire Fusilier Posted 16 May , 2015 Author Share Posted 16 May , 2015 A Motor Transport Unit's ammunition lorry's tailgate being painted with a much more elaborate ' Unit ' insignia, again in the area of Arras, and dated 20 May, 1918. LF IWM This image is reproduced strictly for non-commercial research and private study purposes as permitted under the Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988, as amended and revised. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rockdoc Posted 16 May , 2015 Share Posted 16 May , 2015 Looking at the photo again after a break (my wife's in hospital so I've done my first visit of the day) I don't think the inner markings are dots but letters that have been deformed by the printing process. I would say that there is possibly one S and a C on the bottom row. With the photo Mike posted showing a Canadian yard, I wonder whether it could be as simple as C-S-C for Canadian Second Corps? I must point out that I know very little about the Canadians in WW1 so this suggestion is the flimsiest of guesses. Keith Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lancashire Fusilier Posted 16 May , 2015 Author Share Posted 16 May , 2015 Looking at the photo again after a break (my wife's in hospital so I've done my first visit of the day) I don't think the inner markings are dots but letters that have been deformed by the printing process. I would say that there is possibly one S and a C on the bottom row. With the photo Mike posted showing a Canadian yard, I wonder whether it could be as simple as C-S-C for Canadian Second Corps? I must point out that I know very little about the Canadians in WW1 so this suggestion is the flimsiest of guesses. Keith Keith, Thanks to Mike in Australia, I think we have now solved the question of your sign, and it is definitely Canadian and WW1, and consists of 3 C's within the triangle. Here are 2 examples :- The sign on the left is the sign for ' HQ Canadian Corps Clerks ' and on the right ' Canadian Corps Troops '. Regards, LF This image is reproduced strictly for non-commercial research and private study purposes as permitted under the Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988, as amended and revised. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lancashire Fusilier Posted 16 May , 2015 Author Share Posted 16 May , 2015 Keith & Mike, I knew I had seen that Canadian sign before, and just remembered that it was on the Armoured Cars of the Canadian Motor Machine Gun Brigade, so it was probably the ' Canadian Corps Troops ' sign. Attached are 2 examples of this sign in use with the Canadian Motor Machine Gun Brigade, which was featured in this Thread back in May/June 2014. Regards, LF These images are reproduced strictly for non-commercial research and private study purposes as permitted under the Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988, as amended and revised. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lancashire Fusilier Posted 16 May , 2015 Author Share Posted 16 May , 2015 Anyone interested in the Canadian Motor Machine Gun Brigade or their ' Autocar ' Armoured Cars, here is this Thread's link back to that presentation, which starts with post # 1891 - 3rd June, 2014. http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=173218&page=76 Regards, LF Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lancashire Fusilier Posted 16 May , 2015 Author Share Posted 16 May , 2015 Another example of the general use of the ' Canadian Corps Troops ' sign, shown this time painted on the front of a Canadian Autocar UF21 30 cwt truck, bringing Canadian troops back following their victory at the Battle of Flers-Courcelette ( Somme ) in September 1916, some of the troops are displaying their captured German war souvenirs. LF This image is reproduced strictly for non-commercial research and private study purposes as permitted under the Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988, as amended and revised. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rockdoc Posted 16 May , 2015 Share Posted 16 May , 2015 Thanks, everyone. 'Mike in Australia' was the person I was trying to help in the first place and I'm so glad that we've been able to make sense of the photo of the wagon. Mike's doing sterling work on his models and I'm sure that getting the ID flash right will be a box well and truly ticked. Keith Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sp762 Posted 16 May , 2015 Share Posted 16 May , 2015 Well, a day you learn something is a good day!Here's another question, then. A version of these little wagons was the 'G' class, which was used in the tractor depots by maintenance staff. It had three large tanks on it which contained paraffin, cylinder oil and lubricant oil respectively. I've never seen a photo of a real one...there cannot have been many of them to start with.I've seen photos of models, which are painted all over grey, but that sits wrong with me for two reasons.Firstly, the Army loves to colour code things for ease of reference when you are working in a hurry.Secondly, illiteracy was a major problem for the Army back then, which was partly why colour coding was de rigeur.So this link will show what I'm talking about (link replaced by attached image)I think that correct answer is that the tanks were colour coded and then lettered for their contents.So my question is twofold. Am I likely to be right? have I got the colours right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lancashire Fusilier Posted 17 May , 2015 Author Share Posted 17 May , 2015 Well, a day you learn something is a good day! So this link will show what I'm talking about: http://www.trainsimdev.com/forum/gallery/image.php?album_id=126&image_id=4171&mode=thumbnail Mike, Pleased we were able to get the first part sorted out, and as far as the ' G ' Class wagon, that link does not seem to work. Is it possible to post the photograph ? Regards, LF Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sp762 Posted 17 May , 2015 Share Posted 17 May , 2015 Hi LF - i've added the image to my previous post iot increase confusion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lancashire Fusilier Posted 17 May , 2015 Author Share Posted 17 May , 2015 Hi LF - i've added the image to my previous post iot increase confusion. Many thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lancashire Fusilier Posted 17 May , 2015 Author Share Posted 17 May , 2015 Hi LF - i've added the image to my previous post iot increase confusion. Mike, Locating an actual photograph of this wagon will not be easy, as apparently very few were built. I did however find a reference to this wagon as :- " A ' G5 class 4-wheeled tank wagon ' built in very small numbers, mainly for supplying tractors ' on detachment ' from their main base. They were built on an early pattern 4-wheeled wagon underframe on which was mounted three upright rectangular tanks, each with a capacity of 180 gallons. One carried Paraffin, one Lubricating Oil, and one Cylinder Oil, with their respective contents clearly indicated in stencilled lettering. The length was 8 ft 8 ins over couplers. " Regards, LF Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lancashire Fusilier Posted 17 May , 2015 Author Share Posted 17 May , 2015 Some more photographs of Army Ordnance Corps ( AOC ) Units working ' in the Field ', this time in Salonika. What is particularly interesting in these photographs, is the array of uniform headwear being worn, there are Sun Helmets, a Cor/Gor Blimey Hat, and the seldom seen British Army Slouch Hat, all worn while working on a 13 pdr out in ' the Field '. This photograph, is dated in September 1917. LF IWM This image is reproduced strictly for non-commercial research and private study purposes as permitted under the Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988, as amended and revised. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lancashire Fusilier Posted 17 May , 2015 Author Share Posted 17 May , 2015 A good example of ' making do ' in the Field, with the pulley anchored to the tree, and again, good details of the array of uniform headwear being worn in Salonika. LF IWM This image is reproduced strictly for non-commercial research and private study purposes as permitted under the Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988, as amended and revised. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rockdoc Posted 17 May , 2015 Share Posted 17 May , 2015 The slouch hats were issued in Salonika in 1916 as there was a shortage of sun helmets at the time so the chaps wearing them must have been on that front since then. Given the state of the barrel in the lower picture, I wonder whether it was the victim of a premature? The 13-pdr 6-cwt AA guns went through a phase of having prematures and a strict reporting regime was instigated, as you'd probably expect. It isn't a 13-pdr field gun. That had the recuperator above the barrel and the barrel had the guidance rails on the sides for the recoil movements. This had its 'buffer' under the barrel, unless I'm very much mistaken. I've trawled through Hogg and Thurston and my best guess is that it's a 2.75-inch mountain gun, which was certainly used there, at least one being pointed skywards as an impromptu AA gun! "Under The Devil's Eye" says that the III and IV (Highland) Mountain Brigades were present. The IV Brigade arrived in September 1916 and the III the following November, from the Long Long Trail site. Keith Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lancashire Fusilier Posted 17 May , 2015 Author Share Posted 17 May , 2015 It isn't a 13-pdr field gun. That had the recuperator above the barrel and the barrel had the guidance rails on the sides for the recoil movements. This had its 'buffer' under the barrel, unless I'm very much mistaken. I've trawled through Hogg and Thurston and my best guess is that it's a 2.75-inch mountain gun, which was certainly used there, at least one being pointed skywards as an impromptu AA gun! "Under The Devil's Eye" says that the III and IV (Highland) Mountain Brigades were present. The IV Brigade arrived in September 1916 and the III the following November, from the Long Long Trail site. Keith, Many thanks for the additional information on the ' Salonika ' AOC photos. The first photo in post # 3594 is captioned by IWM as being a 13 pdr, however, the 2 photos look to be taken at the same time, and show the front and back of the same gun, which as you say, is not a 13 pdr, as is confirmed in post # 3595. Here is another photograph of an AOC Workshop in Salonika, with the Gun Artificers busy working on several guns, including an 18 pdr. Regards, LF IWM This image is reproduced strictly for non-commercial research and private study purposes as permitted under the Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988, as amended and revised. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rockdoc Posted 17 May , 2015 Share Posted 17 May , 2015 13-pounders were phased out early in the war, for the most part, because there shells were too lightweight to do any damage to trenches. I've never read that such guns were used at Salonika and, indeed, the nearer gun in the photo is an 18-pounder. The recuperator is shorter than the barrel, the easiest way to tell the two weights apart. The 13-pounder had a barrel close to the same length as the recuperator, as shown by the Néry gun. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ordnance_QF_13-pounder#/media/File:N%C3%A9ryGunIWMApril2008.jpg Keith Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lancashire Fusilier Posted 17 May , 2015 Author Share Posted 17 May , 2015 the easiest way to tell the two weights apart. The 13-pounder had a barrel close to the same length as the recuperator, as shown by the Néry gun. Keith, Thank you for the identification tip, in fact, I just posted a photo of that Nery 13 pdr on another GWF Thread. I shall edit that post. Regards, LF Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now