phil andrade Posted 24 January , 2012 Share Posted 24 January , 2012 Tom W. Thanks for your informative reply. I've clicked on Amazon and bought a used copy of Paddy Griffith's book on British battle tactics on the WF 1916-1918. That now leaves me with five new titles om the GW bought since Christmas. I wonder when I'll start them, let alone finish ! Today I've browsed through some of my books, looking for photographs of actual battle. There are too many staged photo - shoots, one of the most famous being a sequence of men going over on July 1st 1916. But I have picked up on some grainy images of men crossing the fatal space....this being in Robert Rhodes James's book on Gallipoli. The men are advancing in file, dispersed and clearly not bunched up in a huge mass. It's all very well for me to bitch about these misrepresentations : I have not got to worry about marketing a film. Phil (PJA) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alex falbo Posted 25 January , 2012 Share Posted 25 January , 2012 Tom W. Thanks for your informative reply. I've clicked on Amazon and bought a used copy of Paddy Griffith's book on British battle tactics on the WF 1916-1918. That now leaves me with five new titles om the GW bought since Christmas. I wonder when I'll start them, let alone finish ! Today I've browsed through some of my books, looking for photographs of actual battle. There are too many staged photo - shoots, one of the most famous being a sequence of men going over on July 1st 1916. But I have picked up on some grainy images of men crossing the fatal space....this being in Robert Rhodes James's book on Gallipoli. The men are advancing in file, dispersed and clearly not bunched up in a huge mass. It's all very well for me to bitch about these misrepresentations : I have not got to worry about marketing a film. Phil (PJA) I would also add, British Fighting Methods in the Great War which was edited by Griffith and contains some excellent essays on the use of infantry, armored, artillery and cavalry tactics. Stephen Bull has also produced some excellent works on trench warfare and small unit tactics. Here's a link to an excellent site which as bothered to scan and post some of the training manuals from the mid-late war period. SS 135 and SS 143 serve as foundational arguments for revisionist historians. SS 143 Further reading While it may be a stretch to claim British small unit tactics developed post 1916 were 'essentially storm troop tactics' as Griffith states, one can definitely see that the movies fail to display the coordination of WWI infantry tactics. Most of what War Horse displays is something out of 1914 while attempting to reconstruct a 1918 setting. No creeping barrage, Lewis gunners, sections covering each other, platoon cohesion, rifle grenadiers, nothing. Now there is something to be said for the chaos of battle. But Saving Private Ryan and Band of Brothers went to great lengths to at least give the impression that infantry don't just run hither nether about the place as every man for himself. But I will say the film has helped put WWI at the attention of many. And what is also nice is that the Anglo element was kept. I think we might see more and perhaps better films in future as the centennial approaches. Personally, if one wanted to make a statement about the sadness of dragging beast down with man's burden, I would say that the dreadful cavalry charge at Monchy would have been sufficient. Particularly if designed for an R or (18) audience. Just to end on a lighter note, Warhorse has definitely done good as it has inspired manufacturers to gamble on WWI interest. Most of the 1/6 model hobby is based on scratch building, including the sewing of uniforms, because of the lack of commercial parts. While I know that the helmet is naff at best and rubbish at worst and the dimension on some of the gear is wrong and the GS buttons are too small, a great deal can be achieved in customization and modification that would be more arduous without a base material. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steven Broomfield Posted 25 January , 2012 Author Share Posted 25 January , 2012 Personally, if one wanted to make a statement about the sadness of dragging beast down with man's burden, I would say that the dreadful cavalry charge at Monchy would have been sufficient. Particularly if designed for an R or (18) audience. Interestingly I've been pottering through the archive of the King's Royal Hussars in Winchester, one of the ancestor regiments of whom (the 10th Royal Hussars) were, with the Essex yeomanry, part of the charge at Monchy. The regimental history (of the XRH and EY combined) has a large section on this, obviously, but more fascinatingly I uncovered a memoir written by a Private in the XRH who took part. It really is fascinating. Incidentally, from a quick look at SDGW, I think human casualties for the action were quite light (about 30 - 35 men in each regiment). Most interestingly, though, the equine casualties were almost exclusively incurred AFTER the charge, when the two regiments were penned in the village and unable to escape from German shell fire. The charge, blanketed by snow as it was, resulted in a very few casualties (equine and human); it was the fighting in the village which caused the problems. This was, I believe, not an uncommon event: a successful charge followed by recovery. Incidentally, technically I think the XRH and EY didn't "charge" as there was no firm objective. They "galloped" the hill line and veered into the village due to enemy mg fire, which forced the two regiments to swerve away into the village for protection, little foreseeing the carnage which would result. Somewhere I'm sure I can track down the equine casualty numbers when I'm at home. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ph0ebus Posted 25 January , 2012 Share Posted 25 January , 2012 Here is one small story of how War Horse rekindled the memory of a grandfather for his grandson... War Horse film revives memories of a Great War cavalry hero The last two lines of this story are the best. -Daniel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest exuser1 Posted 25 January , 2012 Share Posted 25 January , 2012 many years ago when liveing in Brentwood Essex i was a member of the local WFA the branch it self was very much intrested in the Essex Yeomanry ,with some excellent presentations on their charge at Monchy ,the point made i rember was that the Yeomanry after entering the village halted ,and then waited ? they did not seem to expect that the German artillery would target the square ,which they did and the results were as expected . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phil andrade Posted 25 January , 2012 Share Posted 25 January , 2012 Alex, Your post has encouraged me tremendously. Many thanks. It's good that you have pointed me in the direction of finding out more about the tactical doctrines of the day, and I like your positive take on the value of cinematic representation - even if it is flawed - in developing popular interest. Even at the time, people were proffered staged shots of the Battle of the Somme, and I note that in the Second World War there were also artificial films of the battle of El Alamein - one iconic picture in particular comes to mind, of an Aussie officer, revolver in hand, leading his bayonet men forward in a scene that is redolent of the Somme. This is what people wanted, what they expected, and I suppose they still do. Furthermore, if more concession was made to reality, would people appreciate - let alone understand - the images they would see ? There was a feature in today's Times newspaper, an article on Etonians who have made good actors, and there was a photo of the star of Birdsong, in a pristine officer's uniform, poised on the top of the trench, revolver in hand. " No ! ", I thought to myself......"this won't do ! He would have concealed his rank, worn a greatcoat, carried a rifle and done everything he could to blend in with the men he was leading ! " But then, how would Mr and Mrs Normal have appreciated that ? They need caricature, they need drama, they need clarification. It's challenging to get the balance right. I hope you're correct, and that the screen adaptations will improve as we approach 2014. Phil (PJA) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GRANVILLE Posted 25 January , 2012 Share Posted 25 January , 2012 Well I have to say I got to see the film this afternoon, and had my attention held throughout without the slightest sense of boredom setting in or worse still the inclination to nod off, which I have form for doing in our local cinema. Its a child's story turned big screen blockbuster; whats so hard to cope with? Whilst not a devout Spielbergite you cannot fail but marvel at the logistical organisation and attention to detail which is poured into the film and undoubtedly at enormous cost. On the way home it got me thinking that only we as the human race could spend countless millions on warring with one another, to then wait a 100 yrs or so before spending countless millions again on a two hour recreation on one small representation of it? Dave Upton Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anneca Posted 25 January , 2012 Share Posted 25 January , 2012 Very well put Dave!!!!! Well I have to say I got to see the film this afternoon, and had my attention held throughout without the slightest sense of boredom setting in or worse still the inclination to nod off, which I have form for doing in our local cinema. Its a child's story turned big screen blockbuster; whats so hard to cope with? Whilst not a devout Spielbergite you cannot fail but marvel at the logistical organisation and attention to detail which is poured into the film and undoubtedly at enormous cost. On the way home it got me thinking that only we as the human race could spend countless millions on warring with one another, to then wait a 100 yrs or so before spending countless millions again on a two hour recreation on one small representation of it? Dave Upton Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bernard_Lewis Posted 25 January , 2012 Share Posted 25 January , 2012 Saw it today; thoroughly enjoyed it. A bit sentimental but I don't know if that comes from the book or Mr S, or a mix of both. Story a bit far fetched but enjoyable just the same. Thought I saw reference (homage?) to 'Paths of Glory' (horse going down trench as the men stand up) and definitely 'The Searchers' - the homecoming. I was expecting 'dad' to take up a Harry Carey/ John Wayne, arms- crossed stance in the door of the farm but didn't get it. The no-mans-land looked more like snaps I've seen of Passchendaele rather than the Somme and it also seemed very Paul Nash which is no bad thing. Gas shell explosions were a real eye opener (no pun intended) if they were even fairly accurate. A 'whoosh' and you were engulfed in gas? Having no experience I had always wondered how much gas a gas shell emitted. According to Warhorse its a LOT! Bernard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alex falbo Posted 25 January , 2012 Share Posted 25 January , 2012 Incidentally, from a quick look at SDGW, I think human casualties for the action were quite light (about 30 - 35 men in each regiment). Most interestingly, though, the equine casualties were almost exclusively incurred AFTER the charge, when the two regiments were penned in the village and unable to escape from German shell fire. The charge, blanketed by snow as it was, resulted in a very few casualties (equine and human); it was the fighting in the village which caused the problems. This was, I believe, not an uncommon event: a successful charge followed by recovery. In my mind the events of those days 9-11 April are far more dramatic than anything a screenwriter could or need fabricate. As described by the 13th Rifle Brigade history "We saw the cavalry in action - a glorious but futile charge which got us as far as the village only to be caught, horses and men, in a holocaust of bursting shells. To see those beautiful steeds galloping back riderless, some wounded beyond all hope, was a pitiful sight." Previous quoted from Mr. Reed's Walking Arras. Also the initial charge was not a bloodless affair. Quoting from Nicholls' work trooper Bertie Taylor of the Northants Yeomanry on attacking on the 11th: "We got over the top of the rise and there it stood, red bricks showing - Monchy! The snow was laying thick and I remember at this point some of our horses collapsed, buckling the swords of their riders. We extended into one long line, a bugle sounded and we charged! Over open ground, jumping trenches men swearing horses squealing - a proper old commotion! The bugle sounded three times - and we had come under quite heavy shell fire and some of the saddles had been emptied. But the horses knew what to do better than we did, and galloping by me came riderless horses. Mine, poor devil, had been wounded badly in the coronet so I pulled him up and dismounted and had a look at him. Well, he looked at me, there were tears in his eyes. Poor devils, they know you know. Another one came flying past me with half his guts hanging out, I'd never seen anything like that. Well, my horse perked up, so we galloped after the others. The riderless horses were still leading the charge. Eventually I caught up with our officer, Mr. Hunphriss, who was riding a few yards ahead when a shell exploded just beneath his horse and split him like a side of beef hanging up in the butcher's shop. Both horse and rider were killed instantly. Next we got into the village and the streets were so narrow that tiles from the roofs were raining down on us - that's what caused a lot of injuries. The shell fire was so hot that the bugles sounded the retirement and back we went, led by the riderless horses! The Official History by Falls puts the total casualties for the 3rd Cav Division from 5-13 April at 628 all ranks. Total Third Army casualties including cavalry corps on 11 April were 59 officers and 786 OR. To quote "Contrary to a prevalent belief, the battle casualties of the cavalry had not been high - except in the 8th cavalry Brigade - Even among the horses. The total losses of the 3rd Cavalry Division, by far the heaviest sufferer of the three, were 41 officers and 553 other ranks., with a low proportion of killed to wounded. Those of its 8th Cavalry Brigade were 30 officers and 367 other rank, and of the 6th 11 officers and 175 other ranks. Next came the 5th Brigade of the 2nd Division, the casualties of which were 11 officers and 103 other ranks. The casualties among the horses were higher. For example, the 5th Cavalry Brigade had 347 killed, wounded and missing; and in the 8th Cavalry Brigade, whose losses in this respect are not recorded, 600 remounts were afterwards drawn." I wonder if Micheal Mopurgo has even heard of Monchy le Preux? Or Arras? Would appreciate your figures Steve when you get a chance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steven Broomfield Posted 25 January , 2012 Author Share Posted 25 January , 2012 in a pristine officer's uniform, poised on the top of the trench, revolver in hand. " No ! ", I thought to myself......"this won't do ! He would have concealed his rank, worn a greatcoat, carried a rifle and done everything he could to blend in with the men he was leading ! " It ain't necessarily so. It would depend on a lot of factors: the date, for one. On 1st July 1916 certain formations (the 29th Division springs to mind) did dress officers in Tommy's jackets, but others didn't, and continued to dress in full fig. It's dangerous to make generalisations. Probably dangerous, too, to take this thread down yet another blind alley, so I suggest you either start a new one or search through the Forum for previous threads on the matter, of which I suspect there have been a few. Also worth looking at a few collections of photos and ilustrated books to see. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alex falbo Posted 25 January , 2012 Share Posted 25 January , 2012 Whilst not a devout Spielbergite you cannot fail but marvel at the logistical organisation and attention to detail which is poured into the film and undoubtedly at enormous cost. On the way home it got me thinking that only we as the human race could spend countless millions on warring with one another, to then wait a 100 yrs or so before spending countless millions again on a two hour recreation on one small representation of it? Dave Upton A poignant statement to say the least... Bernard, agreed on all points bu the final battle looked far more like something out of any battle of 1917 rather than the Somme area in 1918. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alex falbo Posted 25 January , 2012 Share Posted 25 January , 2012 It ain't necessarily so. It would depend on a lot of factors: the date, for one. On 1st July 1916 certain formations (the 29th Division springs to mind) did dress officers in Tommy's jackets, but others didn't, and continued to dress in full fig. It's dangerous to make generalisations. Probably dangerous, too, to take this thread down yet another blind alley, so I suggest you either start a new one or search through the Forum for previous threads on the matter, of which I suspect there have been a few. Also worth looking at a few collections of photos and ilustrated books to see. Indeed. Here are some threads I started on the topic Phil Line officer's uniform Officer funk jackets Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steven Broomfield Posted 25 January , 2012 Author Share Posted 25 January , 2012 Alex - thanks for that. This from Whitmore's History of the XRH and EY: The main street of Monchy was indeed a terrible sight, and the horros are not exaggerated when it is described as being littered with dead men and horses. In one place the horses were lying so thick that it was necessary to climb over them in order to pass along the street. The wounded horses were in a dreadful condition, and Liut J Swire, of the Essex Yeomanry, was detailed to do the horrible, but necessary, duty of destroying them. Whitmore gives the (human) casualties as: XRH: Offcers 2 killed. 7 wounded Other ranks 25 killed, 150 wounded, 5 missing EY: 1 12 18 94 10 Additionally, the Brigade Commander, Br Gen C Bulkeley-Johnson, and many of his Staff were killed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alex falbo Posted 25 January , 2012 Share Posted 25 January , 2012 Additionally, the Brigade Commander, Br Gen C Bulkeley-Johnson, and many of his Staff were killed. And thanks for your post. Indeed the staff suffered quite miserably. Bulkeley-Johnson received a sniper's bullet to his cheekbone when attempting to survey his command in the town. I would imagine this event would serve to dispel the notion that GW generals didn't share the risks of their men. In Cheerful Sacrifice, Nicholl's also notes that all of the steeds of C Squadron of the 10th Hussar's were killed. You are right in that they galloped into the village upon encountering heavy fire. Bulkeley-Johson had briefed his commanders that they should head straight for the village in such case. The original objective had been to arrive north of the town. The whole point being exploitation of what those in higher command believed to be a retreating enemy. A German spotter plane was the cause of the direct fire in the square after the troopers consolidated their ground when they realized the earlier German box barrage had trapped them. I just can't imagine why no producer or director looking to have a war film or scene can't fit their fictional characters amidst a historical event that far surpasses the drama, both heroic and tragic, that any of them could conceive. History has done the work for them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom W. Posted 25 January , 2012 Share Posted 25 January , 2012 Gas shell explosions were a real eye opener (no pun intended) if they were even fairly accurate. A 'whoosh' and you were engulfed in gas? Having no experience I had always wondered how much gas a gas shell emitted. According to Warhorse its a LOT! At the opening of the Battle of Caporetto, the Germans fired 894 gas projectors, which dropped between five and six tons of phosgene on the Italians. Here's a German gas projector and shell. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KIRKY Posted 25 January , 2012 Share Posted 25 January , 2012 Thought it was a great film. tony Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Armstrong Custer Posted 25 January , 2012 Share Posted 25 January , 2012 I just can't imagine why no producer or director looking to have a war film or scene can't fit their fictional characters amidst a historical event that far surpasses the drama, both heroic and tragic, that any of them could conceive. History has done the work for them. Well it's been a while since there was anything on this thread that I agreed with, but this I can. George Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phil andrade Posted 26 January , 2012 Share Posted 26 January , 2012 In the Charge of the Light Brigade at Balaclava, I believe that the equine casualties were at least twice as high as the human ones, and I suppose the same might be said of Monchy L P . Edit : on no account imagine that I seek to divert the thread when I refer to officer's dress in battle.....it does indicate how film - makers feel compelled to conform to popular preceptions, and in this respect I'm sure that War Horse demonstrates that. The image of cavalry charging massed machine guns in 1914 is as widely espoused in the popular mind as the story of Polish lancers charging at German tanks in 1939. A movie maker wouldn't want to let the truth spoil a good scene. Phil (PJA) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steven Broomfield Posted 26 January , 2012 Author Share Posted 26 January , 2012 One aspect which interests me and (I think) has not been addressed: in the endless trailers I see, a clip is shown of what is, I assume, supposed to be a Yeomanry Regiment practising a charge, pre-war. They are wearing blue - what I would call, as an ignoramus, "dress" - uniforms. Would a yeomanry outfit, on pre-war excercise, really still be wearing this order of dress? Surely they'd have been in khaki? I know the London Scottish didn't chase across the hills of Surrey in full Hodden outfits at that period. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David_Underdown Posted 26 January , 2012 Share Posted 26 January , 2012 What's even odder is they've all been shown in khaki prior to that point. The only "explanation" I could come up with is that it was the CO's whim that they should dress smartly one last time (and I thought that the Yeomanry were equipped as mounted infantry, no swords, anyway. In the "proper" charge later in the film, they seem to have all left their rifles behind somewhere too) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
healdav Posted 27 January , 2012 Share Posted 27 January , 2012 I saw the film last night at a charity "do" and thought it pretty good. The story itself is fantasy, of course, but its representation of war was first class. The only real beefs are that the cavalry somehow had no rifles when they charge, and machine guns are not usually set up at 10 metre interb^vals in a straight line. No doubt, some purists will tell me that the the rifle guards on some of the rifles didn't come in until 1919 or that the colour ofkhaki was wrong, but leaving that aside, it was well done (especially the scenes in the trenches and no man's land. It looked exactly like photos I have of scenes at Verdun et al. Even the British barbed wire looked like British barbed wire, and the picquets in the German trenches looked like those the German used (and which can still be found in the remains of their trenches. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
archangel9 Posted 27 January , 2012 Share Posted 27 January , 2012 I haven't seen the film yet, hopefully will do so on either Monday or Tuesday evening next week, and I haven't read any of this topic as I want to see the film first without any preconcieved ideas, but I overheard the start of a conversation in my local last night on the subject of War Horse. One gent reported he had just seen War Horse, another asked him what it was about. First gent replied - "Its basically Lassie meets Black Beauty. Set during the Second World War." I drank up and left! John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deerhunter Posted 27 January , 2012 Share Posted 27 January , 2012 Rather, Lassie Comes Home, Saving Private Ryan, and The Champ, all rolled into one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alex falbo Posted 27 January , 2012 Share Posted 27 January , 2012 "Its basically Lassie meets Black Beauty. Set during the Second World War." I drank up and left! John Good Heavens! Here I am complaining that people next to me are confusing Devon for the Scottish Highlands..... yours it a bit of perspective. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now