War Horse - the movie

[phil andrade]

Jack Sheldon's superb book The German Army ay Ypres 1914 contains an anecdote which reminds us that there is a special affinity between men and horses.

After one of the engagements large numbers of horses were left wounded on the field. The German officers insisted that only men from the towns be detailed to dispatch the dying beasts. The men from the farms were too upset to do the job.

In my experience, farmers are less prone to sentimentality about animals than city dwellers. I have to admit that I know diddley squat about horses, and my knowledge is limited mainly to pigs, and dead ones hanging on hooks at that.

And so, while I find mawkish themes about endowing animals with human sentiments ( anthropormorphism ?) pretty sickening, in the light of Jack's citation I suspect that there might be scope for lending some credibility to the man horse relationship as depicted in War Horse.

Phil (PJA)

[Tom W.]

After one of the engagements large numbers of horses were left wounded on the field. The German officers insisted that only men from the towns be detailed to dispatch the dying beasts. The men from the farms were too upset to do the job.

But horse meat is a delicacy in Belgium. It's called paardenvlees in Dutch and viande chevaline in French. They eat it in steak tartare, as smoked meat, as steaks, and in sausages. Wouldn't Belgian farmers have a lot of experience killing horses?

[Seadog]

But horse meat is a delicacy in Belgium. It's called paardenvlees in Dutch and viande chevaline in French. They eat it in steak tartare, as smoked meat, as steaks, and in sausages. Wouldn't Belgian farmers have a lot of experience killing horses?

UGH!!!

[grantowi]

After one of the engagements large numbers of horses were left wounded on the field. The German officers insisted that only men from the towns be detailed to dispatch the dying beasts. The men from the farms were too upset to do the job.

In my experience, farmers are less prone to sentimentality about animals than city dwellers. I have to admit that I know diddley squat about horses, and my knowledge is limited mainly to pigs, and dead ones hanging on hooks at that.

But in those days, a horse was a major factor in farmers lives and livleyhoods

Tractor, taxi and delivery vehicle, and after working together day after day, I would have said companion as well

Grant

[phil andrade]

For those who are committed to work on farms, the realities of rural life contrast with the "chocolat box" image that city dwellers have of rural idylls. The growth of suburban culture in the UK engendered romanticised concepts about country life. To a degree, I reckon that this holds true with animals, too. But, when it comes to horses, I think I might have to reconsider.

Perhaps I'd better try and find this passage in Jack's book, cite it properly, and then invite discussion.

Phil (PJA)

[Anneca]

Pighills, reporting back as requested! After seeing the film yesterday, and going with an open mind, I thought it was exceptional. I have no great love for Spielberg but at least he has tried to express what it must have been like for horses in the Great War. I think the film should give poetic insight to the younger generation of today who, before seeing the film, would probably have had no interest in the Great War, of the tragedy of war and realization to some extent of what both sides had to endure. As for those skeptical Members of the Forum who have denigrated the film I say to them I applaud and appreciate your vast knowledge of the Great War but please 'lighten up' - do you want to deny us of a little light entertainment?

In answer to your question Pighills if the film followed the book closely, yes I think it did, apart from a few minor differences, and the young girl died in the book as well.

On returning home from the cinema I watched a recording of Friday afternoon's Titchmarsh Show (recorded my mistake, I might add) and was amazed to see the Military Historian, Andrew Robertshaw being interviewed. I had no idea that he had been asked by Spielberg to be an adviser on military research for the film!

I went to see the film last night with my family (4 in total).

I have seen the stage play which I thought was breathtaking and was determined not to compare the two as they could never compete.

All four of us (mostly) enjoyed the film. There were odd moments when the music was OTT and an odd time with the horse which I didn't believe would happen in real life, although my daughter assures me her friend's horse would indeed do that sort of thing (when the Germans have both horses and want the black one to pull the gun but is too ill/worn out and Joey bravely gallops forward to put himself first - c'mon!!) can anyone say if horses do behave in this way?

When the gas went off, that was a stunning moment for me. I always had this image of the gas gently blowing in on the wind - again, can anyone confirm for me how gas bombs disperse the gas (in the film it explodes and the gas envelopes everyone in miliseconds). All I could think of when watching that scene was Richard's wonderful title: The Quick and the Dead; I could understand why that saying came to be now (I'd already read the explanation in the book but still thought it blew in gently on the wind).

When the men were enlising and marching off to war amidst bands and waving well wishers .......... (lump in throat time - sorry) ............. and again when Albie and Joey came home.

The scenes of no-man's land were very humbling and if they were anywhere near true to life (as I suspect they were) then I can only thank those who worked on them for giving people some sort of realistic idea of how things were.

The scene of Joey (the horse) running through no-man's land and getting entangled in the wire was heart wrenching. By looking at the other scenes of how the horses were worked to death and their conditions, I thought the film tried to give a good view of what horses had to endure, although I accept I'm no expert and things may not have been 100% right, I'm sure they must have been pretty close.

And this is what I think the original book was about. Not about making a film for WWI buffs, or adults. But a book for children about what horses went through during the Great War. For that I think it's a brilliant portrayal and the 'actors' they used really were the stars (both real horses and puppets).

I said I wouldn't compare the two (film and play) and I won't. Because I don't think you can. They are both different beasts and both to be enjoyed for themselves. I'm glad I went!

PS: Some started clapping at the end of the film. Yes it was good. But no! Why clap in a cinema? Can the actors etc hear you? Why do it? I don't understand it myself. This is the second time I've witnessed clapping in the cinema and it's not something I'm fond of - my bah humbug moment I'm afraid.

PPS: Why don't they supply tissues in films like this?

[Medic7922]

I went to see War Horse last night with “She who must be obeyed” I thought the film was good not exciting but acceptable, even SWMBO enjoyed it, My only moan was the uniforms there was some glaring inaccuracies but I had too Grin & Bear them, its the shame there costume department did not get there facts right, On the way out of the cinema I bumped into an old workmate who was an “EXTRA" at Castle Coombe and in the Horse Auction scene.

[Ralphed]

Loved the play and liked the film. Already had some friends who know that I'm in to the Great war ask me about helping them to plan a visit to the western front,all on the strength of them watching War Horse.

[muckandbullets]

Loved the play and liked the film. Already had some friends who know that I'm in to the Great war ask me about helping them to plan a visit to the western front,all on the strength of them watching War Horse.

This is good news, in addition, more interest from all is good news indeed , it is hoped yougsters, if not your friends, but yougsters out there, will also feel a need to get interested in WW1. Why? Because it will be up to the youngsters

to pursue history that has been pursued by the elders and others on WW1 GWF.

In conclusion regardless of die hards, I would say that Steven Spieldburg has done some good for future Young GWF.

On the note of WW1 Film/Dramas, they seem to be coming the vogue, glimpses in Downton Abbey, then My Boy Jack, then Birdsong.Even with poetic licence, if applicable to some, all a reminder how lucky us armchair observers are lucky enough as not to have been there.

Regards MN

Strength and Honour

[George Armstrong Custer]

I enjoyed Pete Hart's Nemesis, Alex Southran's take on War Horse. Humorous, but many a true word spoken in jest! : War Horse - Who's Horse?

George

[59165]

But horse meat is a delicacy in Belgium. It's called paardenvlees in Dutch and viande chevaline in French. They eat it in steak tartare, as smoked meat, as steaks, and in sausages. Wouldn't Belgian farmers have a lot of experience killing horses?

This is a French thing that just managed to pass over the border into Beljum.

It's cheval,& that is it.It may be different in Beljum,as the french speaking Belgians see it ,but it is just 'horse (meat)' in France.

I've tried it as a steak,as a saussage & as mince & I don't like it.

Anyway.wor horse is a geordie term,except that it should be 'wor cuddie'.

[Pighills]

I enjoyed Pete Hart's Nemesis, Alex Southran's take on War Horse. Humorous, but many a true word spoken in jest! : War Horse - Who's Horse?

George

Hmmmm, come on Bruce, own up, it's your comments on there isn't it? (scroll down to see, under Peter's)

An amusing review and true too (despite me saying I enjoyed the film). But to balance the argument, we can all rip in to every film and point out the incredible moments in which we are asked to believe things without question. If he's going to slate it at least do it with proper facts.

[Pighills]

Pighills, reporting back as requested! After seeing the film yesterday, and going with an open mind, I thought it was exceptional. I have no great love for Spielberg but at least he has tried to express what it must have been like for horses in the Great War. I think the film should give poetic insight to the younger generation of today who, before seeing the film, would probably have had no interest in the Great War, of the tragedy of war and realization to some extent of what both sides had to endure. As for those skeptical Members of the Forum who have denigrated the film I say to them I applaud and appreciate your vast knowledge of the Great War but please 'lighten up' - do you want to deny us of a little light entertainment?

In answer to your question Pighills if the film followed the book closely, yes I think it did, apart from a few minor differences, and the young girl died in the book as well.

On returning home from the cinema I watched a recording of Friday afternoon's Titchmarsh Show (recorded my mistake, I might add) and was amazed to see the Military Historian, Andrew Robertshaw being interviewed. I had no idea that he had been asked by Spielberg to be an adviser on military research for the film!

So glad you enjoyed it Anneca. As a kid's film it was very good, even for adults it was very enjoyable. Glad to hear it closely followed the book too.

[Steven Broomfield]

I enjoyed Pete Hart's Nemesis, Alex Southran's take on War Horse. Humorous, but many a true word spoken in jest! : War Horse - Who's Horse?

George

Thanks for that, George. I haven't actually seen the film and now you've gone and spoiled it for me. You could have said the blog revealed every plot twist and all the people who died. Rotter.

[George Armstrong Custer]

Serves you jolly well right - you started this thread back in November before the film was even released, so you ought to have been quicker off the mark to go and see it when it was!

Spoiler George

[truthergw]

But in those days, a horse was a major factor in farmers lives and livleyhoods

Tractor, taxi and delivery vehicle, and after working together day after day, I would have said companion as well

Grant

Cows and sheep are also major factors and off they go to market, with the only worry being the price they will fetch. I knew carters when horses were still relatively common. I could make your hair stand on end with true tales of the brutality towards their beasts. Shepherds live with their dogs as do gamekeepers. When a dog's useful life has ended it is quite common for it to be put down. Not without some regret but with none of the sentimental gush that seems to be de rigeur for pets.

[phil andrade]

Oh God ! That review (Alex Southran's) was so HARSH ! Damned funny, though....

Still feel that anything that helps promulgate interest in the war is a good thing.

I remain unrepentant in my enthusiasm for the film.

Phil (PJA)

[phil andrade]

A question here....I feel almost ashamed to ask, because I suppose I should know the answer, but here goes :

In screen presentations of the Great War, be they from War Horse or Birdsong, we see infantry going over the top in mass formation , yelling and cheering, led by officers in conspicuous uniforms carrying revolvers and encouraging the chaps.

Isn't this ludicrous ? I mean, wouldn't they have been wiped out in short order ?

What was the actual deployment ? Did men file out in little groups, dispersed as far as possible ? And what of the officers ? Didn't they render themselves as inconspicuous as possible, "dumbing" down in dress and carrying rifles rather than waving revolvers ? Perhaps things in this respect were very different in 1918 from what they had been in 1916, although I suspect that even then there had been considerable concession to the tactics of dispersal.

Sorry if this distorts the thread, but I reckon it might be pertinent, because I see it so often in these films, and I would like to find out just how much actual footage exists of real infantry attacks in that war, so that we could contrast the screen depictions with reality.

Phil (PJA)

[Steven Broomfield]

Cows and sheep are also major factors and off they go to market, with the only worry being the price they will fetch. I knew carters when horses were still relatively common. I could make your hair stand on end with true tales of the brutality towards their beasts. Shepherds live with their dogs as do gamekeepers. When a dog's useful life has ended it is quite common for it to be put down. Not without some regret but with none of the sentimental gush that seems to be de rigeur for pets.

I regret to say (many years ago, admittedly) I watched someone drown a liter of unwanted kittens in a bucket of water. Quite common then. Probably still happens today. It was, frankly, one of the most unpleasant things I've ever seen.

[phil andrade]

A film that sets out to depict the misery and tragedy of the human condition can enhance impact by including an "animal episode" within.

Best example that comes to mind is a heartbreaking sequence in the 1939 screen adaptation of Steinbeck's Mice and Men, in which an old, itinerant farm labourer endures the ordeal of having his sick dog put down. It's understated but excruciating, one of the most powerful evocations I've ever seen on film.

Damn the dog, you're tempted to think, it's the terrible lot of these poor old tramp labourers that matters.....but the old man's entire world is centred round that animal, and the anguish of the scene is hard to bear.

If you get the chance, try and view the sequence on Youtube.

Phil (PJA)

[Guest exuser1]

Its worth reading the extracts in the book Pacific ,which is part of the basis of the TV series of the same name ,and also as we all know part produced by Mr S ,if you have watched it near the end a scene shows a coloum of Marines returning from combat ,with in the unit are shown numerous Doberman Pinchers ,thats all you see ,but the book covers a lot more detail of these war dogs ,used to clear Jap bunkers ,the point is that in 1945 the US Goverment wanted all these animals destroyed in theater ,the soliders who worked with these animals were shocked and many pleaded to have the animals returned to the US where they would look after them ,but no all animals were destroyed ,the scenes described of the owners shooting these dogs is very moveing ,its also described in a few other books on the war in the Pacific .

[Roger H]

Coming back to horses in the Great War. I am currently reading one of my Christ festive presents "Three Years in France with the Guns" a personal narrative by C.A.Rose. He doesn't say which Battery, but clues so far such as being part of the Guards Division and the date of arrival in France, leads me to believe it might have been either the 61st (Howitzer) Brigade or the 74th Brigade. but back to the subject. For a few days rest the Battery goes to Cap Griz Nes:

"A large field was secured, and for several hours daily the horses were put out to grass, and, if ever animals showed signs of joy, they certainly did, and their antics were most amusing to witness.......The main feature of the day was, undoubtedly, the bathing parade, enjoyed equally by man and beast. The horses knew at once what was in store for them when they were led down to the beach. The men stripped, and, mounting the eager horses, a wild dash was made for the water, and quite a number of the animals proved themselves excellent swimmers, many remaining a considerable time in deep water. On leaving the sea, they would gallop along the sands, showing every sign of contentment, and we were glad that, at last, they were receiving some reward for their patient devotion and faithful service, for we were all fond of our four-legged comrades".

Written in 1919 - some indication of emotion felt by the horses?. And the book is a great read by the way.

Roger

[truthergw]

Just home from watching the movie. Not the worst film I have seen but very far from the best. I thought it very episodic, verging on disjointed. Not much of a plot. I wouldn't recommend it.

[Tom W.]

A question here....I feel almost ashamed to ask, because I suppose I should know the answer, but here goes :

In screen presentations of the Great War, be they from War Horse or Birdsong, we see infantry going over the top in mass formation , yelling and cheering, led by officers in conspicuous uniforms carrying revolvers and encouraging the chaps.

Isn't this ludicrous ? I mean, wouldn't they have been wiped out in short order ?

What was the actual deployment ? Did men file out in little groups, dispersed as far as possible ? And what of the officers ? Didn't they render themselves as inconspicuous as possible, "dumbing" down in dress and carrying rifles rather than waving revolvers ? Perhaps things in this respect were very different in 1918 from what they had been in 1916, although I suspect that even then there had been considerable concession to the tactics of dispersal.

Sorry if this distorts the thread, but I reckon it might be pertinent, because I see it so often in these films, and I would like to find out just how much actual footage exists of real infantry attacks in that war, so that we could contrast the screen depictions with reality.

Read Some Desperate Glory, the war diary of Second Lieutenant Edwin Campion Vaughn, who arrived in France in January of 1917. He describes in detail all the officers being issued privates' uniforms and carrying rifles to keep from being targeted.

As for the actual charge, Vaughn writes of a night attack in the rain in April of 1917, an operation that sounds suicidally futile:

Then out from the darkness behind grunted a line of dumpy figures; overcoated with fixed bayonets, weighed down by their soaked clothing and loads of spades, sandbags and bombs, they passed through us like a comb, only an occasional greeting to an acquaintance breaking the silence. Then two minutes later a second line passed through into the rain and darkness, and we were left, with high-explosive bursts around us, to wait with bated breath for sounds of the attack...

In a few minutes, two figures staggered back, one with his arm gone, the other shot in the side; one collapsed and died, the other we patched up and sent back. After that, wounded and unwounded came running, walking, crawling back, all in utter despair. The show had been a ghastly failure, for the Boche had vacated their trench and from positions on the high ground behind had mown down our lads with bombs and machine-guns as they floundered about in the wire.

I don't know that much about British tactics, but the French used skirmish lines and encouraged the men to shout and cheer as late as 1918. The Americans also initially used 1914-style skirmish lines and suffered terrible casualties. There are accounts of entire platoons lying face down in the mud, dead from machine-gun fire.

The Germans developed infiltration tactics, in which small groups or columns of lightly equipped shock troops attacked in three waves, the first consisting of the men who did the actual fighting, the second carrying ammunition and grenades, and the third equipped with shovels and sandbags to consolidate the position taken. The first wave attacked silently behind a short, extremely violent barrage, each squad or column assigned a particular objective and given an "attack sketch" showing them where to go. The Germans relied more and more on surprise attacks as the war progressed. Sometimes they used only two-minute barrages from grenade launchers to force the enemy to keep his head down while the small squads advanced.

By early 1918, the entire German army had been trained in shock tactics and could theoretically mount attacks this way. Entire divisions were designated "attack divisions" that used infiltration tactics. The Allies called them "shock divisions."

From 1916, German attacks looked very different from Allied attacks, although you still read of accounts of German soldiers cheering and singing as they advanced.

[grantowi]

Cows and sheep are also major factors and off they go to market, with the only worry being the price they will fetch. I knew carters when horses were still relatively common. I could make your hair stand on end with true tales of the brutality towards their beasts. Shepherds live with their dogs as do gamekeepers. When a dog's useful life has ended it is quite common for it to be put down. Not without some regret but with none of the sentimental gush that seems to be de rigeur for pets.

Cows and sheep were reared to go to market.

My Brothers Father in law, was a Farmer when horses were the only form of moving heavy loads. According to him, the horse's were fed before the family, without the horses to pull the ploughs and carts they were screwed.

And none of his sheep dogs lived until their "useful life" was over, they either died or were killed in accidents

Grant