War Horse - the movie

[Guest exuser1]

Hi Harry you are correct in what you say about todays schools ,also the film you mentioned To Sir With Love ,was set in the area i went to school at the time ,though i was at primary school rather than secondary as per the film ,in fact the intresting point with the film is the journey taken by Poiter on the bus appears to be accurate ,rather than the normal Hollywood sight seeing tour ? i think for many of us there is the one teacher who sets us on the slippery slope of history and military history ,perhaps it helped that many of the teachers i had were ex forces from flying Hawker Harts in Afganistain in the 30s through to WW2 prision escapees to korean war vets at the sharp end ,also we were privilaged to have a teacher who brought to our attetion the very history that occured in the areas we lived and went to school ,perhaps the history being very bloody helped to gain the attetion of us horrible kids ? and with due respect to the children today we were pun not intended bombarded with Great war and WW2 images ? from TV to comics to the next door neibour .

[maxi]

Saw the film last night and I felt Speilburg got it about right,the battlefield scene in particular resembled the paintings of Paul Nash. The cinematography was amazing an homage to 'How Green Was My Valley' perhaps?

As a result of War Horse, I have noticed that my friends, neighbours and family,who previously had never really understood my keen interest in the Great War, are now asking questions not only about the animals but of the War itself. Now thats not a bad thing.

[Beau Geste]

I don't feel I should humor you here Seige but as a genlman I'll try to expl\ayn

1. I tri always to chek my postings for speling and/or gramatical erors but it klashed with the 5th round soker droor. No kompititshun.

2. That even grama skool stoodents dont nesessarily respond to gud teeching.that focssis on historikle accracy.

Now, can we focus on the pupose of this silly aside?

Harry

[IanA]

I had the temerity to suggest that "historical accuracy" was by no means the primary consideration that teachers must adhere to when teaching the subject.

In many city centre schools, (and I use the term "city centre schools" simply because I know of no label that is better to explain my point) the learning process bears very little resemblance to that which was no doubt experied by many members of this GW Forum. Here teachers really do earn their bread. They don't necessarily have students sitting in front of them who come from good, stable homes with parents who are convinced about the value of a goods education.

And I pulled you up then and I'll have the 'temerity' to pull you up again. You are a bad teacher if you continue to insist that the primary consideration of a teacher is not accuracy - historical or otherwise. I would say that an effective teacher must grab the attention of their pupils, focus their minds on something that they may not have chosen to have focussed on otherwise, keep the class behaviour within acceptable limits, run through all the 'tricks of the trade' - but, if you can do all this (and most teachers have to) why not teach them the truth while you're at it?

Your point regarding pupils not necessarily coming from "good, stable homes" is risible and reminds me of the head of department who caused many jaws to hit the floor when he announced, in a pained voice, that he had to teach children who never listened to Radio 3 or watched the better programmes on BBC2.

Incidentally, my 38 years' teaching experience was not gained within the public school system, or grammar schools, but within the comprehensive system.

[George Armstrong Custer]

Well put, Ian.

George

[Beau Geste]

And I pulled you up then and I'll have the 'temerity' to pull you up again. You are a bad teacher if you continue to insist that the primary consideration of a teacher is not accuracy - historical or otherwise. I would say that an effective teacher must grab the attention of their pupils, focus their minds on something that they may not have chosen to have focussed on otherwise, keep the class behaviour within acceptable limits, run through all the 'tricks of the trade' - but, if you can do all this (and most teachers have to) why not teach them the truth while you're at it?

What you say here Ian is something I can't argue with (except of course your suggestion that I might be a bad teacher). I've said it before and I'll say it again and keep saying it: people will only learn effectively if they're interested. Gaining that level of interest is sometimes extremely difficult, sometimes even impossible no matter how experienced or gifted you think you are. You mention working in a comprehensive but as you know many (most) have students who are not only extremely able but are willing to give the teacher a fair hearing. In these situations, I agree with you.

I'm talking though about establishments, and they are not few and far between where you don't get that response, where a teacher will rack his/her brains trying to find a way to break through these negative attitudes. I'm not talking off the top of my head here. I've experienced this type of situation and I have no hesitation in saying that it's not something I would wish on anyone who is eager to pass on his or her knowledge and experiences to others. Indeed, I'm not at all proud of it but I came very close to having a nervous breakdown. My "salvation" if you like, was the fact that there was no pressure on me to get these kids through an examination that would help them realise success vis a vis the careers of their choice. They had no ambitions, they were simply passing the time until they could wave school goodbye. In situations like this a teacher very often feels he/she has no alternative but to devise ways of simple controlling the kids and what I'm saying is that gaining their interest, even for a short period of time, is vital.

Ian, don't be offended when I say this but if you haven't experienced this sort of thing then you can't really appreciate the pressures that staff face in schools like this and your 38 years experience might not help you in this respect.

Your point regarding pupils not necessarily coming from good stable homes is risable.

Put like that I agree with you but not when it's just one negative characteristic among many, some of which I listed.

Harry

[truthergw]

To be a teacher confronted with a class where the pupils have no motivation nor desire to learn would be a dispiriting thing. Of that I have no doubt. What would be even worse would be a teacher who thought it acceptable to give these pupils information which was false, in the hope that it would hold their interest better than the truth.

[keithfazzani]

Surely facts are facts, and to pretend otherwise is dishonest whatever walk of life one is in. Debate is of course necessary when dealing with disputed matters. History is often disputed and in my experience young people enjoy debate, even if they wish to call it argument. But I would be horrified if I thought that any child was "taught" falsehoods in order to keep them quiet. If we return to War Horse I would think it a fine movie to show to young people. I would however say at the beginning that this is a "fictional portrayal of some aspects of WW1". Having done my homework I would then after the viewing point out those things based on fact and the more obvious areas where it departed from the facts and invite debate and discussion around these areas. This could then be followed by a series of discussions of recorded exploits of horses and other animals in WW1. In this way the children would have gained an experience in viewing the movie, some experience in debate (or argument) and some factual knowledge of WW1. Who knows they may even develop a wider interest in history. I would have thought such an approach would be adjustable to a wide variety of attainment levels. Nowhere would any untruths be involved.

[Dragon]

But they aren't the sort of learners I was referring to earlier when I had the temerity to suggest that "historical accuracy" was by no means the primary consideration that teachers must adhere to when teaching the subject.

In many city centre schools, ... the learning process bears very little resemblance to that which was no doubt experied by many members of this GW Forum. Here teachers really do earn their bread. They don't necessarily have students sitting in front of them who come from good, stable homes with parents who are convinced about the value of a goods education. Many, are the children of broken relationships. living in less than ideal conditions; kids whose parents are often living off benefits,; parents who sometimes have no conception of the value of a good education. To make matters worse too many don't even speak English and are often only interested in where they'll get their next fix.

My first teaching job was in a very tough inner city multi-cultural comprehensive school. Having been to a girls' grammar school myself and then to an old university in a beautiful city, it was a complete shock and retrospectively I'm not sure that I was the best sort of person for that job. I was certainly not trained for it. Where I would disagree with Harry's point is that I utterly believed that it was my responsibility to be as rigorous as possible, not because I thought that the students' homes were a complete desert of literature inhabited by drongos, but because I knew that some would never again get the opportunity to read and reflect, or write for pleasure, unless they actively sought it out as adults. I can honestly say that in that English faculty I never met anyone who believed in second-rate accuracy as a means of crowd control.

I know that Harry wasn't condemning all inner city parents. Despite received wisdom, many parents there were ambitious for their children. They saw education as a way out. I've also taught visiting gipsy teenagers and travelling fair teenagers. I can distinctly remember the fair mum telling me that she couldn't read or write, but she was determined that her daughters would be able to apply for whatever job or course they wanted; she'd saved a massive sum to pay their way through university, if that's what they chose. And therefore she was looking to me as their temporary English teacher to equip them, to widen their horizons and to expect their absolute best. She made them do school work when they were on the move.

I don't know anything about the calibre of trainee teachers Harry worked with. I think that if you love your subject, and you personally have high standards of academic rigour, being lax about accuracy doesn't come easily. It doesn't make life easier. Trust comes into it and young people tend not to trust teachers whom they suspect are fobbing them off. I've found that many young people rise to challenges if you create a safe environment where they can try without being afraid of getting it wrong - I used 'Beowulf' in the original with 12 year olds and Chaucer with 'A' level students many times, successfully.

I know it will horrify learned members of this forum to know that when teaching war poetry to absolute bottom set GCSE students, I incentivised them. I insisted that we read the poems, analysed them, reflected on them and wrote about them, using proper literary terms such as simile, metaphor and onomatopoeia. (And that they spelt them correctly, too!) And every so often, if they did what I asked of them, we had a break and watched 'Blackadder'. There. I've said it. 'Blackadder'. Some of these bottom set teenagers went on to get Bs for English Literature. In fact, the moderator picked out one boy's work as the most sensitive and informed piece on war poetry he had ever seen. And it wasn't about the work of Edmund Blackadder, either.

I have to add (happily) that I haven't been a teacher for years, now and I can't comment on current practice.

Gwyn

[stevem49]

Here was me thinking that this thread was about a cinema production. It has turned into a teacher v teacher slanging match

If one of you starts a 'teacher - good or bad' thread, I will happily contribute

[Dragon]

Was my post 'slanging'? I don't think my tone was aggressive. I am certainly not offering myself as a shining example of a good teacher - after all, I sometimes showed them 'Blackadder' - because I don't think I was. My results were good, but I was never the sort of person whom you would imagine had "teacher" running through me like lettering in a stick of rock. I was very lucky to have the opportunity to leave.

I don't know how you retain the attention of students whose sole aim is anarchy. I do know that young people can detect bull a mile off and they have no respect for teachers whom they think are foisting duff information on them for an easy life.

Gwyn

[stevem49]

Was my post 'slanging'? I don't think my tone was aggressive. I am certainly not offering myself as a shining example of a good teacher - after all, I sometimes showed them 'Blackadder' - because I don't think I was. My results were good, but I was never the sort of person whom you would imagine had "teacher" running through me like lettering in a stick of rock. I was very lucky to have the opportunity to leave.

I don't know how you retain the attention of students whose sole aim is anarchy. I do know that young people can detect bull a mile off and they have no respect for teachers whom they think are foisting duff information on them for an easy life.

Gwyn

It was not aimed at you

[Dragon]

Thanks, Steve.

As for 'War Horse', or even 'Blackadder' - there, I've said it four times now - there's only so much blood, death, trauma, tragedy and sheer bloody battlefield awfulness that a teenager can take. I think there's a place for breaking up the relentless real emotional impact... for most of us.

Gwyn

[David_Underdown]

There's one untruth very commonly taught to school children - that atoms are like little solar systems, with electrons (like planets) orbiting around the nucleus made up of protons and neutrons (like the sun). It's a model that is good enough up to a point, and introduces some useful concepts in an understandable way - but once you get to A level physics you'll be told it's rubbish (and the reasons why - mostly that the electrons would have to be giving off radiation if they were really orbiting), and it's better to think of it in a rather different way. Sometimes, people don't have enough context and understanding to get the "truth", without being led along the way with something that isn't entirely true, but is graspable from where they are starting

[Dragon]

Good analogy.

[Pighills]

What you're saying is completely understandable David, and the reasons why this 'dumbing down' explanation would be appropriate.

What I can't understand and refuse to accept is the headteacher who, when my daughter was in primary school, told her the capital of America was New York. Now to me if you're going to teach something, you HAVE to give the right facts. It took a great deal to convince her he was wrong and she now views teachers with a certain amount of scepticism, which is a great shame as the majority of them do indeed give the correct information.

[Tom W.]

The best history teacher I ever had was in high school. She would bring props to school: fake blunderbusses, bows and arrows, World War one tin hats and wooden Springfield rifles, potato masher grenades, etc., and act out how various battles, ambushes, or raids went. She once brought one of those ghastly knuckle-duster trench knives the Americans used and said, "Imagine cracking someone in the jaw with this, knocking out his teeth, and then sticking it into his face or guts. Just imagine doing that."

Even the usual disruptive delinquents were enthralled. It all depends on the teacher. It never occurred to give her a hard time, because her enthusiasm was catching. She was an actor, performing on stage and pulling back in to relive the times she was describing.

[Steven Broomfield]

What I can't understand and refuse to accept is the headteacher who, when my daughter was in primary school, told her the capital of America was New York.

You mean it's not

[Beau Geste]

I know that Harry wasn't condemning all inner city parents.

Thank you Gwyn. Of course I wasn't but you don't need too many negative influences in a classroom to be under the wrong sort of pressure. I admit that I have "generalised" but I have done so because I felt that that was the only way I could get my point across. Not all learners are motivated and interested and want to get on . there are still many out there who are longing for the day when they can start doing the things they want to do without having to listen to people "talking crap." That , unfortunately, is the reality in some schools.

I don't know anything about the calibre of trainee teachers Harry worked with.

The usual sort Gwyn, graduates who felt they had something important to offer so they enrolled on Cert Ed and PGCE courses. I'm delighted to say that the majority found teaching to be exactly what they had expected : a challenging but demanding and enjoyable occupation. Unfortunately, there were some who couldn't leave the profession quickly enoughj. These were either the newly qualified who found themselves in schools like I've described or, and this is the first time I've mentioned it, in a Liberal (General) Studies department in a college of further education. They were responsible for teaching their subject to "in work" apprentices who spent one day a week in college. One session during that day was on "liberal studies" which meant that the youngsters (usually 16 or 17 year olds) had an hour session on subjects like history, politics, psychology, philosophy and even photography! I don't suppose that you need much imagination to appreciate what these young adults felt about having to listen to someone going on about a topic they personally were passionately interested in but that they themselves couldn't give a fig for. It really was a case of interest them or achieve nothing . Life for lecturers in general studies departments was pretty hard believe me.

I think that if love your subject, and you personally have high standards of academic rigour, being lax about accuracy doesn't come easily.

How right you are Gwyn and that's why the turnover in schools of the type I've described, and in colleges of further education was, and probably still is, very high. It takes a very special person to put up with the pressures I've mentioned on a day to day basis and very often their session preparation reflects not only their desire to educate their students but also to minimise the stress that is, unfortunately, a feature of their daily life. In Great War terms these are, in some ways, the VC winners of our educational system.

I have to add (happily) that I haven't been a teacher for years, now and I can't comment on current practice.

The educational system obviousy lost an excellent teacher Gwyn. However, I'm interested in the wording of of your last paragraph. Why do you say that " 'happily' I haven't been a teacher for years"?

Kind regards,

Harry

[Beau Geste]

The best history teacher I ever had was in high school. She would bring props to school: fake blunderbusses, bows and arrows, World War one tin hats and wooden Springfield rifles, potato masher grenades, etc., and act out how various battles, ambushes, or raids went. She once brought one of those ghastly knuckle-duster trench knives the Americans used and said, "Imagine cracking someone in the jaw with this, knocking out his teeth, and then sticking it into his face or guts. Just imagine doing that."

Even the usual disruptive delinquents were enthralled. It all depends on the teacher. It never occurred to give her a hard time, because her enthusiasm was catching. She was an actor, performing on stage and pulling back in to relive the times she was describing.

She sounds brilliant Tom. A great teacher who found ways of really interesting her learners. People like this are relatively rare believe me. You were very fortunate.

Harry

There's one untruth very commonly taught to school children - that atoms are like little solar systems, with electrons (like planets) orbiting around the nucleus made up of protons and neutrons (like the sun). It's a model that is good enough up to a point, and introduces some useful concepts in an understandable way - but once you get to A level physics you'll be told it's rubbish (and the reasons why - mostly that the electrons would have to be giving off radiation if they were really orbiting), and it's better to think of it in a rather different way. Sometimes, people don't have enough context and understanding to get the "truth", without being led along the way with something that isn't entirely true, but is graspable from where they are starting

A very good point David

Harry

[SiegeGunner]

The best history teacher I ever had was in high school. She would bring props to school: fake blunderbusses, bows and arrows, World War one tin hats and wooden Springfield rifles, potato masher grenades, etc., and act out how various battles, ambushes, or raids went. She once brought one of those ghastly knuckle-duster trench knives the Americans used and said, "Imagine cracking someone in the jaw with this, knocking out his teeth, and then sticking it into his face or guts. Just imagine doing that."

Did she perhaps include a Turkish woman sniper routine in her repertoire ...?

[truthergw]

She sounds brilliant Tom. A great teacher who found ways of really interesting her learners. People like this are relatively rare believe me. You were very fortunate.

Harry

A very good point David

Harry

Why can't these children be told that we used to believe that atoms were like little solar systems but now we know that that is not true? If a child knows enough to engage with the idea of the solar system as a model she can surely cope with that slight extension?

[Dragon]

Why can't these children be told that we used to believe that atoms were like little solar systems but now we know that that is not true? If a child knows enough to engage with the idea of the solar system as a model she can surely cope with that slight extension?

Believe me, Tom, for some of us who haven't got the faintest glimmer of aptitude for science, the little balls and springs was quite challenging enough. Still is.

She would bring props to school: fake blunderbusses, bows and arrows, World War one tin hats and wooden Springfield rifles, potato masher grenades, etc., and ...

I used to take in my uniforms (I have enough to dress six people), helmets, dead shells, etc. as a start to war poetry. I'm sure the buttons were the wrong war but it didn't much matter.

My friend who teaches special needs was required to teach KS3 war poetry to teenagers with multiple problems (I mean teenagers who weren't even on the scale of Key Stage anything, who were profoundly multiply-handicapped). She borrowed my stuff and some music by Butterworth. They could gently run their fingers over the cold metal, the rough fabric, the smooth helmets, they could have the broken edges and weight of pieces of shrapnel held for them, while they listened to the music she played to them. They cried.

Gwyn

[stevem49]

We never had atoms when I was at school

We learned the three 'Rs' - reading righting and rubbish

My Aim's possibly knows more about WW1 than her teacher.

[Beau Geste]

Why can't these children be told that we used to believe that atoms were like little solar systems but now we know that that is not true? If a child knows enough to engage with the idea of the solar system as a model she can surely cope with that slight extension?

I've "noticed".... I wish i could think of a better term ......your offerings on this particular thread, and more than once I've asked myself "what does he really know what it's like to be in the "firing line" with 20 or more kids who AREN'T INTERESTED IN THE SLIGHTEST about WW1.

Come on now. For a long time I've thought of you as a stalwart of this forum, a person who really knows a hell of a lot more than I do about The Great War. But now I'm not sure any more. Sorry, I KNOW you know more about WW1 than I do but.............

You contribute to this thread as if you really are aN experienced teacher. Ridiculing the comments I make despite the fact that my CV really does qualify me to make these points.

I ask you now, tell us about yourself.

Harry