George Armstrong Custer Posted 30 January , 2012 Share Posted 30 January , 2012 You contribute to this thread as if you really are aN experienced teacher. Ridiculing the comments I make despite the fact that my CV really does qualify me to make these points. You are clearly still oblivious of the fact, Harry, but it is your references to your teaching qualifications which makes a lot of what you've said on this thread beggar belief. Patronising Tom won't change that. George Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beau Geste Posted 30 January , 2012 Share Posted 30 January , 2012 You are clearly still oblivious of the fact, Harry, but it is your references to your teaching qualifications which makes a lot of what you've said on this thread beggar belief. Patronising Tom won't change that. George Oh there you are!!! I was wondering where you were. If I patronised Tom, that CERTAINLY wasn't my intention. I really do hope he read my posting to him in the way it was intended. Can I ask you the same question I asked Truthgw. You mention my qualifications to comment on this thread, what are yours? I'm not just speaking about academic qualifications here but the experience you've had teaching in schools/colleges were enormous demands are made on the teachers who work there. From the comments you've made here I'm sure we can all learn from your extensive experience. Harry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
truthergw Posted 30 January , 2012 Share Posted 30 January , 2012 We never had atoms when I was at school We learned the three 'Rs' - reading righting and rubbish My Aim's possibly knows more about WW1 than her teacher. Your Aimee has special tuition. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
muckandbullets Posted 30 January , 2012 Share Posted 30 January , 2012 As a neutral, you Old Sweats out there who appear to have been teachers --------- I take my hat off to you and those who had a tough time and survived. Its ironic that some discussion talks to teach near the truth or the truth. Ironic? Yes early history, it was the Victors who told the story. So telling the truth of early history could be telling a lie. Getting back to War Horse, I look forward to more Families on GWF taking their Youngsters to see the film and their interest growing into WW1. Regards MN Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
truthergw Posted 30 January , 2012 Share Posted 30 January , 2012 I've "noticed".... I wish i could think of a better term ......your offerings on this particular thread, and more than once I've asked myself "what does he really know what it's like to be in the "firing line" with 20 or more kids who AREN'T INTERESTED IN THE SLIGHTEST about WW1. Come on now. For a long time I've thought of you as a stalwart of this forum, a person who really knows a hell of a lot more than I do about The Great War. But now I'm not sure any more. Sorry, I KNOW you know more about WW1 than I do but............. You contribute to this thread as if you really are aN experienced teacher. Ridiculing the comments I make despite the fact that my CV really does qualify me to make these points. I ask you now, tell us about yourself. Harry As any one who has seen my posts will know, I worked on building sites and in engineering factories, interspersed with whatever job I could find to pay the rent and buy books. In a way, never left school but for a long time I had to do without teaching. Nowadays, I am a student with OU, in abeyance at the moment for reasons outwith my control. My last brush with 'real' education was when, in my mid fifties, I returned as a full time student for 3 years. So, I have a real and long time interest in teaching and teachers. I was able to study teachers from the privileged vantage point of 40 years working experience. I am an expert on teaching from the students point of view. I reckon I could spot one who had given up on his students at a distance of several classrooms. I also believe that that would be spotted by most students and the lack of interest would be reciprocated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Armstrong Custer Posted 30 January , 2012 Share Posted 30 January , 2012 You mention my qualifications to comment on this thread Wrong. I only picked up on your continual mention of your qualifications. You're now taking a line that nobody who hasn't been a teacher can comment on your assertion that being deliberately economical with the truth is the only way to make history interesting - though you've twisted, modified and tweaked that since your return to this thread to mean just your definition of inner city no hoper schools. But when a teacher with 38 year's experience questioned your assertions, your response was that "you can't really appreciate the pressures that staff face in schools like this and your 38 years experience might not help you in this respect." In other words, neither non-teachers nor teachers with decades of experience have the necessary qualifications to properly understand, never mind question, your advocacy of the teaching of sub-standard history for those you deem unfit to appreciate the real thing. But it's CERTAINLY not your intention to patronise anyone. Of course it isn't, Harry. George Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IanA Posted 30 January , 2012 Share Posted 30 January , 2012 I've "noticed".... I wish i could think of a better term ......your offerings on this particular thread, and more than once I've asked myself "what does he really know what it's like to be in the "firing line" with 20 or more kids who AREN'T INTERESTED IN THE SLIGHTEST about WW1. Come on now. For a long time I've thought of you as a stalwart of this forum, a person who really knows a hell of a lot more than I do about The Great War. But now I'm not sure any more. Sorry, I KNOW you know more about WW1 than I do but............. You contribute to this thread as if you really are aN experienced teacher. Ridiculing the comments I make despite the fact that my CV really does qualify me to make these points. I ask you now, tell us about yourself. Harry Does my CV (I have a four-year honours degree in education and experience of teaching in a variety of primary and secondary schools coupled with continued professional training throughout my 38 years) qualify me to remind you that you have never once, to my (or anyone else's) satisfaction, explained why you deem it of lesser importance to ensure that your teaching is factually correct when you are faced with children who are 'challenging'? I would think the majority of teachers come up against pupils who are truculent, aggressive, bored, troubled and lacking any self-esteem. They will come from troubled backgrounds, live in appalling conditions or have been taken into the care of the local authority. It takes determination, personal commitment, guile and a huge variety of approaches to attempt to connect at some point. If you can 'work the magic' then it is no more difficult to teach the facts than it is to bend the truth. What you appear to be advocating is not 'teaching' but 'child minding'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SiegeGunner Posted 30 January , 2012 Share Posted 30 January , 2012 I seem to recall, perhaps imperfectly, from previous discussions, that Harry has told us in the past that he moved on from the Army Education Corps to become a trainer of teachers, rather than a teacher himself. Perhaps he could elaborate. Whatever the case, with his service in the Household Division followed by his time in the AEC, he cannot have been involved in the teaching of (history to?) children for anything like the length of time that Ian served at the chalk face. Incidentally, if he is lurking out there and hesitating to become involved in this thread, I, for one, would be very grateful to hear from Mark Hone, who is well known and widely respected on this forum as a very experienced and inspirational teacher of history. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dragon Posted 30 January , 2012 Share Posted 30 January , 2012 I've taught in an inner city comprehensive, a rural comprehensive and a girls' grammar school. In my observations, given inadequate teachers, grammar school students can behave as badly as inner city students. (I know one boys' school where the behaviour in bottom streams with certain teachers is anarchic. I personally know a young man who has been bullied to assault level by his classmates.) There was a worrying nihilism (drugs, alcohol, partly coming from affluence) in the rural comp. It isn't possible to generalise. Sometimes, being practical, what a teacher needs to do is gain the support of the influential students who can tell the others to shut up and let Miss get on with it. I don't have any answers or magic touches. As I think I've made clear, I think rigour is important. (I'm using that term because in my own subject, accuracy is not always so easy to define.) Even in an apparent rabble, there may always be someone of considerable potential and it would be awful if being given second rate information by a teacher either damaged the potential or meant that material had to be re-learned correctly from scratch later on. I don't think Harry meant wilfully giving wrong information, I assumed he meant that sometimes information may be diluted. So I wonder what a teacher does if despite her or his best efforts, it's clear that there is no interest and little is going to be remembered. In those circumstances, is it perhaps better that the students leave school with some awareness of an historical period than with none at all? Gwyn (You'll excuse me if I omit my post nominals, I'm sure. But my CV did say I have certificates in first aid and, er, home nursing.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom W. Posted 30 January , 2012 Share Posted 30 January , 2012 Did she perhaps include a Turkish woman sniper routine in her repertoire ...? She acted out scenes from the Battles of Lexington and Concord in the American Revolutionary War in such a way that we could see the Redcoats doing things the way they'd been taught back on the training grounds of England, and these "colonial farmers," as she called them, popping out from behind trees with their Kentucky rifles and picking them off. She was also the first person I ever heard mention the Mauser T-Gewehr. She mimed a German antitank rifleman loading the giant cartridge, taking aim, firing and absorbing the brutal recoil, and then the destruction the round cause inside the British tank, where the crew was already ill from the exhaust fumes, the heat, the gunpowder smoke, the fumes from the melting solder, and the bumpy ride from the unsprung suspension. You know Sinatra is considered a brilliant singer because his best work conjured images in your mind. You can see as clear as day what he's trying to get across. It was almost as though a movie is playing in your head. That's what Miss Neald did for us. She made history as attractive as the best Sinatra songs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SiegeGunner Posted 30 January , 2012 Share Posted 30 January , 2012 I personally know a young man who has been bullied to assault level by his classmates. This is unlikely to cut much ice with older members, Gwyn — young men often become firm friends after fighting each other. In the past, the corollary of that was that the weak go to the wall, but that is perhaps no longer the case. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
truthergw Posted 30 January , 2012 Share Posted 30 January , 2012 She acted out scenes from the Battles of Lexington and Concord in the American Revolutionary War in such a way that we could see the Redcoats doing things the way they'd been taught back on the training grounds of England, and these "colonial farmers," as she called them, popping out from behind trees with their Kentucky rifles and picking them off. She was also the first person I ever heard mention the Mauser T-Gewehr. She mimed a German antitank rifleman loading the giant cartridge, taking aim, firing and absorbing the brutal recoil, and then the destruction the round cause inside the British tank, where the crew was already ill from the exhaust fumes, the heat, the gunpowder smoke, the fumes from the melting solder, and the bumpy ride from the unsprung suspension. You know Sinatra is considered a brilliant singer because his best work conjured images in your mind. You can see as clear as day what he's trying to get across. It was almost as though a movie was playing in your head. That's what Miss Neald did for us. She made history as attractive as the best Sinatra songs. Tom, not nearly enough people have the benefit of an inspirational teacher. Like you, I was lucky. Mine was Miss Mitchell. She taught us from the age of 7 to the age of 11. That is, in the Scottish system as it was then, the years before we went up to secondary education. Late forties to start of the fifties. If I meet a classmate from these bygone days, the eyes are sure to light up when we recall her. Very strict. Yes, Miss Mitchell, No, Miss Mitchell but she instilled in us the notion that spelling was important and so was punctuation. History, geography, arithmetic and music. It was all grist to her mill. She handed out a sweet to the winner of the Friday mental arithmetic and spelling tests. Yes, one sweet. They were rationed and these came out of her ration. Like all the teachers at the primary school, she carried a supply of clean rags to hand out to those who had no hankie. Use of the sleeve was positively discouraged. We came from a fairly grim part of town where our tenements sat in the shadow of mill chimneys and factory hooters sent us to school. Once in the class, we were encouraged to realise that our escape from the mills was through education. Instead of spinners or weavers we could be doctors or lawyers. First though we had to know when the Norman conquest was and what was the capital of Nigeria. She taught us the facts of history just as she taught us the facts of geography. She felt no need to jazz it up by a bit of imaginative moonshine. She taught a class, some of whom were getting barely enough to eat. None of whom were adequately clothed in winter, clothing was rationed and incomes insufficient. Still she stubbornly confined herself to teaching the facts and demanding maximum effort from every student, none of whom were ever allowed to give up. We thought our teacher, our Miss Mitchell, was special. Strangely when I meet ex-pupils who had a different teacher, they think the same. Truth is, they were all special. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IanA Posted 30 January , 2012 Share Posted 30 January , 2012 (You'll excuse me if I omit my post nominals, I'm sure. But my CV did say I have certificates in first aid and, er, home nursing.) I'll see your certificate in first aid and raise you a certificate for swimming thirty-three and a third yards. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alex falbo Posted 30 January , 2012 Share Posted 30 January , 2012 Lads, lets keep it at Warhorse and its effect on public awareness of the War. As the son of a communications and technology teacher of high school and college, and a longtime student of recent experience, I feel qualified to say that a real teacher would not admit that it is acceptable to teach untruths or misrepresenting fiction for fact in any school at any level. Even if the class seems hopeless. Someone who argues otherwise has simply lost their way as an educator and not worth thread space. *Edit Re: referring to the earlier arguments. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dragon Posted 30 January , 2012 Share Posted 30 January , 2012 (edited) Public awareness of the War. I have been wondering whether what with 'War Horse', and 'Birdsong', and presumably others in the pipeline, documentary or otherwise, is there a risk of overkill? I mean: I came across something which was virtually saying oh-no-not-another-thing-about-the-war. And we have two years to go before 2014. Gwyn Edited 31 January , 2012 by Dragon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MichaelBully Posted 30 January , 2012 Share Posted 30 January , 2012 Hi Gwyn, yes there is a danger re 'overkill'. I remember in 2007 when there was a great deal of coverage about the bi-centenary of legislation to curb the Trans-Atlantic slave trade, my partner and work colleagues were interested but after so much media interest and so many TV features they lost attention big time. And my other half got to the point of groaning if there was another TV trailer about a forthcoming documentary about slavery. I think that it was 1990's Chaos theorists pointed out that 'more doesn't always mean better'. Personally I think that there is little we can do about it. The 2014-2018 centenary is going to happen and I think that all we can hope for is that people who have studied the Great War can have some input. Back to 'War Horse- the movie: Well I treated my other half to see it this evening, and I was expecting the film to be totally cringeworthy. I came away with a totally different view. Ultimately it is not a serious documentary but a story. For all its faults, I found that the film was quite enthralling and got a lot of out if seeing it Felt quite inspired to pursue my own research into the Great War era. Regards, Michael Bully ' ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Public awareness of the War. I have been wondering whether what with 'War Horse', and 'Birdsong', and presumably others in the pipeline, documentary or otherwise, is there a risk of overkill? I mean: I came across something which was virtually saying oh-no-not-another-thing-about-the-war. And we have two years to go before 2014. Gwyn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steven Broomfield Posted 31 January , 2012 Author Share Posted 31 January , 2012 As the [proud owner (I'm not sure how to spell "possessor") of several O levels and an A Level or two, I have watched the debate on teaching standards with interest. My inspirational teacher was Satch Foster, who (an ex-Gunner Captain) used to bring in loads of bits of militaria for us. Sadly, he was supposed to be teaching French, so although my interest in military history flourished, my understanding of French didn't. He was also the best aimer of a small piece of chalk I ever met. Personally, I also have to say that although I'm certain it's not intentional, Harry does come over as a touch patronising when talking of his teaching career. As an ex-Grammar School boy in the 60's and 70's, and the husband og an ex-Inner City school teaching assistant (oh, the stories she could tell me), I think an inspirational teacher is a great thing, and there are probably more than we like to think, but however inspirational the teacher, he/she has to have the canvas to work on. The lady I saw at Waterloo this morning swearing at her young son and smacking him quite hard in the queue for the 211 bus is possibly a very good antidote to an inspirational teacher. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger H Posted 31 January , 2012 Share Posted 31 January , 2012 Whilst I have enjoyed the discussion on teaching, why is the thread on War Horse (Culture topic) now being dominated by it? Surely the education debate is now more appropriate to Skindles. I keep hoping for War Horse, but alas no. Roger Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
geraint Posted 31 January , 2012 Share Posted 31 January , 2012 Gee up Roger! Some people a bit blinkered ehh? You must learn to gird the loins and saddle the burden of others horseying around. I bray that your traces are straight and lets shoe the educators away!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger H Posted 31 January , 2012 Share Posted 31 January , 2012 Geraint I did feel a bit of an old nag. Roger Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dragon Posted 31 January , 2012 Share Posted 31 January , 2012 I think the loose connection was something to do with how films like 'War Horse' fit into public knowledge of historical periods and [history] teachers' responsibility to ensure as far as possible that their students are armed with facts especially in the face of inaccuracy on the part of film producers. It then got onto the shameful lack of knowledge of the Hundred Years War or something (I can't face going back to look). Anyway, I have deleted some of my more irrelevant contributions. Perhaps in terms of films, plays and entertainment, it parts into two questions. Does accuracy matter? (Yes) Does the audience care? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
squirrel Posted 31 January , 2012 Share Posted 31 January , 2012 Perhaps in terms of films, plays and entertainment, it parts into two questions. Does accuracy matter? (Yes) Does the audience care? Does accuracy matter? Yes to us on the GWF it does! Does the audience care? Probably not given the improbable characters and storylines of most films and plays these days. However, were not forums such as this, the LLT and organisations such as the WFA formed to promote awareness of what actually happened? As the [proud owner (I'm not sure how to spell "possessor") of several O levels and an A Level or two... Was the English Language pass at O or A level then? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger H Posted 31 January , 2012 Share Posted 31 January , 2012 Anyway, I have deleted some of my more irrelevant contributions. Gwyn You shouldn't have done that - your contributions to the education debate were excellent. Roger Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IanA Posted 31 January , 2012 Share Posted 31 January , 2012 smacking him quite hard in the queue Cracking French euphemism there... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David_Underdown Posted 31 January , 2012 Share Posted 31 January , 2012 Why can't these children be told that we used to believe that atoms were like little solar systems but now we know that that is not true? If a child knows enough to engage with the idea of the solar system as a model she can surely cope with that slight extension? Because in many respects it's still a useful model. Until you've done some wave theory and a bit of quantum dynamics (wave-particle duality at least), the next leap is pretty hard to deal with. We still use Newtonian physics most of the time even though it doesn't actually tell the whole truth (anomalies in the orbit of Mercury were a big problem in classical dynamics, and one of the things which led Einstein to relativity). Ideally it should be made clear that it is only a model and not literally true of course. Anyway, Messrs Pratchett, Stewart and Cohen deal with this idea in more detail in their two "Science of the Discworld" books Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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