Haka performed at the Menin Gate

[SiegeGunner]

The solo haka appears to have been impromptu, but presumably previous group ones were performed with the agreement of the Last Post organisers. If it is okay with the organisers, then I am agnostic about hakas at the Gate, but wonder whether they are ever also performed at Ramparts Cemetery, where I believe there are a number of Maori graves.

[GlenBanna]

The solo haka appears to have been impromptu, but presumably previous group ones were performed with the agreement of the Last Post organisers. If it is okay with the organisers, then I am agnostic about hakas at the Gate, but wonder whether they are ever also performed at Ramparts Cemetery, where I believe there are a number of Maori graves.

I do not believe it was impromptu. As I wrote in a previous post, it appeared to be preplanned and authorised .

Glen

[(nzef)]

I have no doubt it was planned, requested (per the LPA website link), authorised and performed with the uttmost respect and humility.

Is it appropriate? - Well, as this thread shows, everyone has their own opinion and feelings on the matter. Aren't we lucky to have that right.

Correct, no New Zealanders are commemorated on the Gate (other than those fighting with other units).But, as has already been pointed out, the Gate is THE central point for commemoration in the salient, no matter what nationality. I don't think you have to have your name on it to be commemorated.

I also suggest, that the Gate is probably the best place to perform a Haka. Doing so in a cemetery, is less respectful in my book,

My opinion :-)

[Peter Bennett]

Has anybody spoken to the young man and given him a chance to explain ?

Aurel

Well said Aurel

The number of psychics’ and clairvoyants on the thread have clearly read his mind !!

[IanA]

I was thinking much the same - he would certainly be surprised that his actions have generated 107 posts so far. Maybe a little flattered.

[Tom Morgan]

I agree with Aurel. Rather than guessing what kind of Haka it was and what it meant, or whether the boy was working alone or with the support of his teachers and fellow-students, why not just ask?

Back to first principles. Glen says he saw the Haka performed on Sunday, 27th July. Nobody performed the Haka on Sunday, 27th July, as 27th July was a Wednesday, so those pals who were present need to confirm the date.

If the Haka did indeed take place on a Sunday but it was Sunday 24th July, then the Mount Albert Grammar School (Auckland) Cricketers laid a wreath. Their cricket-caps are the same colour as the blazers we see in the Haka photos. Click here to see if you agree.

So there's a place to try. Maybe a NZ Pal might like to contact the school to see if the student was one of their group, let them know of the controversy here and see what their intentions really were.

Tom

[GlenBanna]

Apologies. Tom you are absolutely right it was Sunday the 24th of July.

Glen

[Tom Morgan]

Good heavens - no apology needed Glen - we've all done it and there's nobody worse than me for it.

Tom

[dycer]

I can picture a Scots Pipe non-Military Band, forming up in the Square, marching down to the Gate and the sound of the Pipes and Drums reverberating from the Buildings but before the Buglers sound, the Pipes and Drums silence.I'm sure that would bring a tingle to anyone's spine but is that the real 1917 reality?

I would suggest that the Salient was indefensible and "British" Troops should have been withdrawn from it,just as the Germans,post Somme, withdrew to the Hindenburg Line.

I have no argument with the 1917 offensive, although I am sure my more studious Forum compatriots and WW1 tacticians will argue the plot ,which appears to have become enshrined in mud,thanks to the natural elements.

But I fail to appreciate how a Scots WW1 Battalion could march through Ypres,in 1917,with its Pipes and Drums at "full belt",without attracting German fire.

I think rather that the men who were forming up, in 1917,to attack the Salient, if directed through Ypres.did so quietly,so as not to receive counter-Battery fire.

I'm sure the "Haka" is no different to the "Scots Highland Chant" when closing with an enemy.

But I would rather appreciate the "Haka" was addressed to the, Queen of New Zealand,by the Maori Chief's challenge to allow her to enter their sacred lands.

George

[Roger H]

II would suggest that the Salient was indefensible

Off the Haka topic I know, but history shows it wasn't indefensible.

Roger

[CGM]

There is a write up about it on the school website.

A blog about the cricket team's trip to Europe.

See here:

http://www.mags.school.nz/Story?Action=View&Story_id=5753

Taken from the website:

We went on the the town of Mennin where we were guests of the town to lay a wreath at the Mennin Gate at the last post ceremony at 8pm. We were dressed in our blazers and ties for the occasion. Jayden Metcalfe, representing the school, Nic Parish (great uncle died in this war) and Mr Leonard, representing the staff, laid the wreath on behalf of the school. Then Haamiora performed the haka which was truly an amazing experience. The amount of people (and there were about 400) who spoke to us afterwards and wanted to know about us was overwhelming.

[dycer]

Roger,

If you were serving in Ypres and being shelled at,from three sides,what would you do, as a common soldier?

Surely early 20th Century "British" Politics entered the "mix" to say that Ypres,as the last part of "free-Belgium" must be defended.

George

[auchonvillerssomme]

Well said Aurel

The number of psychics’ and clairvoyants on the thread have clearly read his mind !!

Hold on Peter this isn't about psychic ability or why or motives, it is about whether forum members find it appropriate and some of us say we don't think it is. Perhaps someone should send the school a link to this thread.

[Herekawe]

There is a write up about it on the school website.

A blog about the cricket team's trip to Europe.

See here:

http://www.mags.scho...w&Story_id=5753

Taken from the website:

We went on the the town of Mennin where we were guests of the town to lay a wreath at the Mennin Gate at the last post ceremony at 8pm. We were dressed in our blazers and ties for the occasion. Jayden Metcalfe, representing the school, Nic Parish (great uncle died in this war) and Mr Leonard, representing the staff, laid the wreath on behalf of the school. Then Haamiora performed the haka which was truly an amazing experience. The amount of people (and there were about 400) who spoke to us afterwards and wanted to know about us was overwhelming.

Good on M.A.G then.

It seems they attended and participated with permission.

They appear neatly dressed and respectful.

They evidently added something to the process of Remembrance for those present.

They travelled from the far side of the world to do this.

Aren't these the sort of young people we should be encouraging?

I wouldn't link them to this thread - how discouraging would that be; they followed the "rules" whatever they are, so leave them to it. Nothing will change what they have done its in the past all that will happen is they will be alienated.

If you want to change the behaviour of future visiting groups, all groups not just NZ Schoolboys - thats fine, knock yourself out. Sniping at these guys won't make any difference.

James

[Tom Tulloch-Marshall]

Maybe the answer would be to have two “events” every evening. At 8pm, The Last Post, with the buglers. Plain, simple, as first intended. Straightforward, respectful, - police close the road just before eight, buglers march on and sound the post, two minutes silence, buglers march off. (I’ll be there).

Prior to that, at say 6:30pm and subject to the prior approval of the LPA, an “entertainment” and wreath laying event. As much singing, dancing, flute playing and getting your photo taken as the LPA and the police can put up with. (I won’t be there).

I personally am beyond bored with having to endure young Karen, Sharon, Damian, and Tarquil cluttering up the Last Post ceremony with their school wreath laying, sanctioned by the LPA because Sharon's great-great uncle's cousin is named on the gate – followed by five other groups doing exactly the same thing. They could lay their wreaths at any time of the day – and I have to say that I firmly believe that “hey look at me” has more to do with these events than any kind of paying respect.

With regards to the lads (and their school) involved in the event which started this thread, I think everything we have seen of them has pointed towards them both intending to be, and being, respectful of the Last Post ceremony.

Perhaps they were ill-advised, and perhaps the time has come for the LPA to reassess its administration of the ceremony, especially the type and number of “ancillary” events which it permits.

Tom

[Fedelmar]

Come in Spinner!!!!

[charles222]

Would any non-Maori WW1 soldier from New Zealand actually be aware of the haka?

I must admit I have stopped going to the Last Post ceremony at the Menin Gate, unless I am taking someone there. The tourist crowds, the hum of conversation through "silence", the applause and add-ons such as that being discussed here just turn me off. I go and have my two minutes of silence as I look at the names of my two relatives listed there and think of them and what their loss meant to our family, at other quieter times of the day. For that matter I don't feel that Ypres itself has improved over the years. What was once respectful, awesome and historic now strikes me as a little too touristic and shallow. Just the way I feel. It's still a place I love very much but don't have the same feeling for it that I once had.

hi again from nz., even when i went to college in 1960 we had our own haka for the football rugby team, which we all chanted , and had no idea what it meant. as it was only in maori , and we wernt taught maori te reo in school .ngai tahu in ch ch after the last earthquakes 2011 . had a mass harka done by all peoples called stand up ? kia kaha. stand tall. the ka mate is a ngati toa haka which expecally pakeha have adopted in later years because of the all blacks ,who are many of them no maori decent, because it looks good , in nz they wouldnt have any thing to do with the maori culture. only when overseas.to be kiwi. even in nz there would be asain who could do the ka mate. i myself being ngai tahu. te atiawa iwi decent would of done a mihimihi which tells who you are, iwi , mountain , maori family..where you come from, which is done at a marae.then the spirits of our dead would know who we are. example my gt /uncle c .woodgate lies somwhere in polygon wood, so i would do my mihi mihi and sing our iwi song. for our family iwouldnt do the haka kamate as it isnt our iwi haka. if ngati toa used it in the maori war days it would .have been used against ngai tahu in an attack. as ngati toa invaded the south island , with muskets. which the south island maori didnt have. and took out the big paha at kaiapoi. also akaroa. kaikoura .before being beaten back by ngai tahu, later on when they got musket s also .both sides were married into early whaling familys,where they got guns and boats my family names are european as the whalers married chiefs daughters .Norton .Aldridge.Woodgate. Heberely . all had maori or part maori wives. in one of the notice boards they mentioned caterpillar valley, our cousin henry norton is buried there .d 1916 flers .the debate on the haka still goes on today ,we could say people from england who live in nz should be doing the morris dance.. if i saw some one doing the haka overseas ,i would say. ko wai to iwi. what is your iwi. kia ora .charles

[Piorun]

Thanks for the insight, Charles. Clearly, the significance is far more complex than tauiwi understand. kia ora, Antony

[Tom Tulloch-Marshall]

Come in Spinner!!!!

Yab shanga !

[charles222]

Thanks for the insight, Charles. Clearly, the significance is far more complex than tauiwi understand. kia ora, Antony

kia ora from nz. ,i forgot . that the nz army has its own haka also. last sat night the all blacks did the other haka against australia the one that ends with the cut throat action. so its clear what that haka means , if you look nz army haka on u tube you can see it . if you have to be of maori descent to do the haka for the armed forces i dont know. the word haka means dance' its usually a challenge' the other side would respond with their haka, so you wouldnt have both sides doing ka mate . also in our family tree was capt charles huntley from scotland married a maori woman from ngai tahu ;so huntley is also maori descent name.also remember nz sung god save the queen untill 1960s. here in nz we are one people??? .Maori descent, and the rest . maori voting if you want the rest general role. charles

[Fedelmar]

There were Maori's in the NZ Army perhaps one of them was his relative. I don't think we should be so judgemental about the issue.

Lest we Forget!

[auchonvillerssomme]

Again, this isn't about being judgmental, its about whether we think it is appropriate.

[Peter Bennett]

Hold on Peter this isn't about psychic ability or why or motives, it is about whether forum members find it appropriate and some of us say we don't think it is. Perhaps someone should send the school a link to this thread.

Mick

You are right about the whether it is appropriate debate. Whilst your posts are not provocative and make reasonable points, read again some of the stuff on here as to who, what, why, where.

Just an excuse for Pom Bashing....................

[healdav]

This thread reminds me of the fuss in Britain when the funeral of Princess Grace was shown on TV and Prince Rainier was shown crying. "How unfeeling" was the cry.

Everyone forgot that it was Monaco TV who did the coverage (with help from French TV) and Prince Rainier had a hefty say in what went on. If he had said I don't want to be seen during the service, then he wouldn't have been seen. He never objected to having been seen.

You should be very careful of being offended on other people's behalf.

My wife found this when she, after a lot of heart searching, showed the Fawlty Towers video 'the war' to an English class (adults) including Germans. She found the Germans rolling on the floor howling laughing, and was, ever after asked for it by every class.

[charles222]

Thanks for the insight, Charles. Clearly, the significance is far more complex than tauiwi understand. kia ora, Antony

kia ora,, hi again ' just had a thought about the haka at a rugby match .japan could respond with a banzai charge, same thing .regards charles .