judy7007 Posted 7 August , 2011 Share Posted 7 August , 2011 Judy, If its any help,your Countrymen,knew when to remove their hats. George George, yes you are right, absolutely and agreed Judy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Robertson Posted 7 August , 2011 Share Posted 7 August , 2011 For years I have hated the menin gate circus,in this case I do think it appropriate as it was "performed"for all the right reasons in the right place by a rep of nz far from home as are the fallen i`ll get me coat No need to get your coat. I would rather stand at the Menin Gate with one person who thought they commemorated their fallen countrymen in their appropriate cultural tradition than stand next to a vacant 500 who had no real idea why they were there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jacksdad Posted 7 August , 2011 Share Posted 7 August , 2011 Hi you state "Mate as a Haka that has a deeply revered meaning and significance which has been 'hijacked', (for want of a better word) in recent years by the media" I think you will find the same thoughts here in NZ. The All Blacks international tests were once in 'a blue moon' in my dads day (1940-60) - the Haka was maybe only done twice a year. but with more travel - we now have one every 2 weeks and there are plenty here who feel that the KaMate haka is now over done, a few years ago it was decided to reserve it only for the 'main' test matches (like for Australian and South Africa), another new haka was used instead. that fell through as it was then thought that if you got the new Haka it was like an insult.. you were being thought of as second rate team... so alas the poor Ka Mate haka has suffered at its own success... much like the Menin Gate has suffered at its success. you are very correct in that it is the 'default' Haka for New Zealanders overseas. used in the correct situation it is very relevant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jacksdad Posted 7 August , 2011 Share Posted 7 August , 2011 Hi Glenbana thank you for the input and your photo above. They appear to be in front of the fence here, would that infer that they are part of the ceremony? If so then would it be fair to say, bearing in mind that these boys are weel behaved and respectful, that haka, from what you have said this was a planned part of the ceremony? With travel these days... The Ceremony at the Menin gate is an international affair, based not in a Britian, but in Belgium. should there be silence at the end of the bugle call - yes i think generally there should be... but if this is a santioned part of the ceremony run by the Belgiums, and it (haka) happens once in a blue moon. It does not kill it for me. i realise others will not agree. It would be worse if no one turned up to honor the dead. It would be worse if no one on the GWF bothered to comment. that would be the saddest part of all. so i still think -- Good on the Boy. His courage and passion should be applauded. That looks like a Wellington School Blazer? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jacksdad Posted 7 August , 2011 Share Posted 7 August , 2011 Hi Derek Robertson "I would rather stand at the Menin Gate with one person who thought they commemorated their fallen countrymen in their appropriate cultural tradition than stand next to a vacant 500 who had no real idea why they were there." well said! I guess when the beautiful gate is only a train ride away, it is easy to miss the point. fall into the 'in my day it was done different' yesterday was better... mind set. I can't help but wonder if that brave Boy, understands it more deeply than those that say its touristy and shallow now. i imagine for him it was not shallow. OH to be a 2 hour train ride away, but maybe if it was so easy to get too, i too would slip into 'the mould' as well... i would its human nature... lose sight of the meaning from time to time. That boy would have sacificed to get there, that is a minimum $3000 trip, thats probably 1 or 2 years fund raising -- for him that beautiful monument was important. His guts and sacifice - good on the boy. pray that he returns and soon before it is too late. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Tulloch-Marshall Posted 7 August , 2011 Share Posted 7 August , 2011 Here's a group of schoolboys doing a Haka at the Menin Gate in 2008. Judge for yourselves: Menin Gate Haka I'd have to say that I'm struggling a bit with the example above, and can see that it might cause "some surprise" to anybody who witnessed it. Sorry, but its too aggressive and threatening, and if I’d witnessed it first hand I wouldn’t have been happy. The lad taking the lead roll looks like he’s trying to start a gang fight – it would be impossible to describe his manner as being in any way pleasant. This is nothing like the event I mentioned in post #9. I don’t think it’s going to be possible to take the 27th July 2011 event any further unless somebody can come up with some video footage of what the lad actually did. His mates are a smart looking bunch an I have no doubt that their intentions were A1 ........... but Tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GlenBanna Posted 7 August , 2011 Author Share Posted 7 August , 2011 Roger I do not know the name of the school but I had a very brief word with one of the teachers and I understand they had visited Gallipoli before Ieper. As a teacher I was perhaps swayed by the manner they conducted themselves( I had already seen them elsewhere in the town) and I agree it took great courage for the boy to perform on his own. Perhaps there could have been an announcement before the ceremony. Glen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Ring Posted 7 August , 2011 Share Posted 7 August , 2011 A polarizing topic from down under if you are not a Maori and personally I struggle with the "over use" or perhaps inappropriate use of the Haka. As an example I can remember watching an overseas sporting competition on TV some years ago and it appeared to me that every time one of our teams completed their event, their supporters performed a haka. Even if they came last. This was ridiculed by many people. My understanding and I stand to be corrected, that it is an in your face war like challenge to your foe accompanied by rolling eyes, protruding tongues etc. This is clearly demonstrated when you watch a rugby game involving the All Blacks. The challenge is usually respected by the opposing teams except on one occasion the ABs performed it in the dressing room after a dispute with I think the Welsh.. The Maori Battalion and other units were famous for their Hakas pre battle in the world wars and scared the pants off the other side. I believe the school boy was honouring the warrior dead at Menin gate and that it was a spontaneous gesture. Hakas can be performed at funerals down here as a mark of respect for the deceased and very powerful to watch. Tony Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Piorun Posted 7 August , 2011 Share Posted 7 August , 2011 Hi Derek Robertson "I would rather stand at the Menin Gate with one person who thought they commemorated their fallen countrymen in their appropriate cultural tradition than stand next to a vacant 500 who had no real idea why they were there." well said! I guess when the beautiful gate is only a train ride away, it is easy to miss the point. fall into the 'in my day it was done different' yesterday was better... mind set. I can't help but wonder if that brave Boy, understands it more deeply than those that say its touristy and shallow now. i imagine for him it was not shallow. OH to be a 2 hour train ride away, but maybe if it was so easy to get too, i too would slip into 'the mould' as well... i would its human nature... lose sight of the meaning from time to time. That boy would have sacificed to get there, that is a minimum $3000 trip, thats probably 1 or 2 years fund raising -- for him that beautiful monument was important. His guts and sacifice - good on the boy. pray that he returns and soon before it is too late. Roger: with the greatest respect, on what basis do you presume or accept that it's shallow now - and on what basis does the quoted poster assume that 500 don't have any idea why they are there? This is reverse elitism in its worse form. One or two Members have made personal, critical comments that have offered no proof at all that those who attend the Menin Gate ceremony don't do so out of anything but the greatest feelings of reverence or respect. Whether or not they get pissed later is utterly irrelevant. There's no doubt the kid had balls and it's probable that his intentions were of the best. However, balls alone doesn't make it appropriate. The Menin Gate ceremony is an Ieper Firefighters Last Post ceremony. It is their ceremony and we have no right to suggest that it should be anything else. Attend it and accept it - or stay away. Do not try to change it by impromptu displays of national culture(?), however relevant they might be to those whose names are commemorated. If you want to change it, do so through respectful correspondence with the The Last Post Association. I have little doubt that the boy was brave and well-meaning but his actions, stripped of emotional baggage and unless it was a funeral haka (kara kia?), were out of order. Your post 62 expressed things better than your last. Antony Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moggs Posted 7 August , 2011 Share Posted 7 August , 2011 A fascinating thread which has ebbed and flowed through many arguments pro and con to the use of the Haka, or its solemn derivative. Well done to all who have participated. I have been to the Menin Gate ceremony only twice - two nights in a row back in September 2010. (It's not a simple train trip for me such as it isn't for any from the antipodes.) I had heard of the great variety of musical groups that sometimes played there so I was pleased to see a choir from England perform with a nice demeanour. What surprised me, though, was the playing of the Last Post. There were four buglers! I appreciated the efforts of the local fire brigade musicians but would have preferred just the one. When more than one play such a tune staying together is impossible and the beauty of the tune is flawed as a result. It was still a very moving moment for me being my first time. The next night we attended after the town had held its first military tattoo and the sound produced as the combined pipe and drum bands marched through was extremely energising. The crowd were expecting something extraordinary which was generally received. This night nine buglers came out to play. A loud sound but, again, not as moving as a soloist would have been. Two very different ceremonies under the same umbrella. I have taught Maori students who are very proud of their heritage and were willing to share their culture whenever it was deemed appropriate. It was never forced upon us but done with permission. My feeling is that this boy who performed at the gate did so with permission, too. Otherwise, I suspect his friends as well as his teachers would have stopped him. The Haka, after all, is about respect. Jonathan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Tulloch-Marshall Posted 8 August , 2011 Share Posted 8 August , 2011 ... What surprised me, though, was the playing of the Last Post. There were four buglers! I appreciated the efforts of the local fire brigade musicians but would have preferred just the one. .... The sounding of the Last Post. One thing – ONE THING – which isn’t up for criticism or any other kind on non-positive comment here are the Menin Gate buglers. Be under the gate at 8pm on a weekday night in December, January, February, - then give an opinion. Tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moggs Posted 8 August , 2011 Share Posted 8 August , 2011 The sounding of the Last Post. Point taken. One thing – ONE THING – which isn't up for criticism or any other kind on non-positive comment here are the Menin Gate buglers. I wasn't criticising. I do understand their profound sense of duty and honour to be a part of the ceremony. I was talking about a preference for the one bugler over many. Jonathan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jacksdad Posted 8 August , 2011 Share Posted 8 August , 2011 Hi Anthony - Piorun Sorry, maybe my wording has not done justice to what i meant. i think we are on the same page for a great deal of it and i agree with the essence of what you are saying. can i clear up this: "Roger: with the greatest respect, on what basis do you presume or accept that it's shallow now - and on what basis does the quoted poster assume that 500 don't have any idea why they are there? " i was refering to 'other members' statements in this discussion that the menin gate was too touristy and shallow now, i was disagreeing with that line of thought wholeheartedly! maybe i should have cropped the last line of the quoted "a vacant 500" - sorry if that muddied the water - as the very essence of what i am on about is all should attend and and none should judge that one mans honest way of honoring is less important than anothers. that does not mean its a free for all - no way. going by what little we have in the way of photos, they are on the inside of the fence - my question is does that infer that they have gone through the right avenues - with regards to permission? otherwise (i assume as i am not sure) that they would be on the outside of the fence with the general public. so it may not be a impromptu display, any more then 30 bagpipers marching in from the square being part of the ceremony. 30 bag pipers maybe more familiar to those from Britian or other colonies, but here in NZ that boys respectful tribute is familiar just as much... all be it hard to understand for some. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jacksdad Posted 8 August , 2011 Share Posted 8 August , 2011 Tom Post #83 I'm with you on that. Not a good fit with the essence of the ceremony... but looks like it is part of the ceremony. They seem to be struggling with a tribute vs a challenge and hence the feel is some what missing and rough around the edge like a haka in a pub, empty noise, just ticking the box. a challenge should make eye contact - a tribute should start with eyes cast to heaven and then to the ground or feet of those present. I would love to see a video of this boy doing his solo in the first post. His eyes should be cast above the the people there to those he is speaking too, he should also speak to the poppy tributes that his school has laid and he should be casting his eyes from that to the sky. those poppy reefs would represent those at home in NZ who could not attend or had pasted away and never been able to attend the Menin Gate to pay tribute Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
auchonvillerssomme Posted 8 August , 2011 Share Posted 8 August , 2011 I am sorry if anyone felt personally insulted by a previous post I made on this thread, that was not my intention. Seeing the comments made about the Haka or its equivalent relative to WW1, I may well revise my opinion about this dance (probably not my opinion about its relevence to a remembrance service though)if can anyone give any specific references to this being performed before 'bayonet charges' or to German references telling us they were intimidated or scared by them? I am working my way through The New Zealand Division 1916-1919. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris_Baker Posted 8 August , 2011 Share Posted 8 August , 2011 i was refering to 'other members' statements in this discussion that the menin gate was too touristy and shallow now, i was disagreeing with that line of thought wholeheartedly! Roger was clearly referring to my post, but had he read it properly he would have seen that I was referring to Ypres itself rather than the Last Post ceremony. We are allowed to have differing opinions - even those who had an interest in and determined how to reconstruct the town had widely differing opinions on how it should be done. I suspect those among them who wished the entire centre of Ypres to remain as a respectful "zone of silence" would raise an eyebrow at the way it is today. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Hone Posted 8 August , 2011 Share Posted 8 August , 2011 Martin, this fact is pointed out (in slightly oblique fashion) on an early post in this thread. New Zealand was the only Dominion to insist on the separate commemoration of its missing on discrete memorials and specifically declined to have their fallen included on the Menin Gate when plans for the monument were drawn up in 1921. This does lend a touch of irony to the current thread although, of course, as the earlier post points out, there may well be lots of Kiwis commemorated who were serving with British units etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Herekawe Posted 8 August , 2011 Share Posted 8 August , 2011 I read this morning that the Menin Gate does not list the names of the missing of New Zealand, and that they are honoured on separate memorials...... That is true, which is sort of the point I made in #17 that there are many places with a more NZ flavour than the Menin Gate. However the Menin Gate is without doubt a great centre for Remembrance which is probably why these NZ school parties end up there. I hope that they do spend time in other places. James Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Herekawe Posted 8 August , 2011 Share Posted 8 August , 2011 I am sorry if anyone felt personally insulted by a previous post I made on this thread, that was not my intention. Seeing the comments made about the Haka or its equivalent relative to WW1, I may well revise my opinion about this dance (probably not my opinion about its relevence to a remembrance service though)if can anyone give any specific references to this being performed before 'bayonet charges' or to German references telling us they were intimidated or scared by them? I am working my way through The New Zealand Division 1916-1919. The Maori are canny fighters and I think on the Western Front at least there would be limited opportunity for doing a haka within sight or sound of the Germans. May have happened at Gallipoli once or twice. More likely to have been performed at funerals and/or away from the line. The NZ Division 1916 - 1919 can be hard work my version has very small print. James Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jacksdad Posted 8 August , 2011 Share Posted 8 August , 2011 Roger was clearly referring to my post, but had he read it properly he would have seen that I was referring to Ypres itself rather than the Last Post ceremony. Hi Chris no offence given or taken. i am not sure it was your reply i was refering too. there was one that suggested that the person no longer wished to attend, and i was saying that they shouldn't be put off that there are 365 nights of ceremonies and all should be welcome and feel a part of it. maybe i am equally in the postion of reading too much into what others have said. The discussion has been thought provoking and positive. Cheers roger Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jacksdad Posted 8 August , 2011 Share Posted 8 August , 2011 I am sorry if anyone felt personally insulted by a previous post I made on this thread, that was not my intention. Seeing the comments made about the Haka or its equivalent relative to WW1, I may well revise my opinion about this dance (probably not my opinion about its relevence to a remembrance service though)if can anyone give any specific references to this being performed before 'bayonet charges' or to German references telling us they were intimidated or scared by them? I am working my way through The New Zealand Division 1916-1919. Good on you! That is the most positive news The first that comes to mind is the series of haka's during the attack on Chunuk Bair 8 August 1915, the Maori pioneers were divided up among the NZ regiments before the attack. there were already many Maori in the NZ regiments and the Maori Pioneers went with the different groups in these regiments they already knew. It was a night attack by bayonet up a very very steep hill. I quote Christopher Pugsley book on the maori in WW1- "The anxious watchers within the Anzac perimeter could follow the story of the New Zealand success by the battle-cry of the Maori as each trench was taken: "Ka mate, Ka mate! Ka ora, Ka ora" (we may die, we may die! We may live, we may live!) and by the the receding flashes of the rifle and machine gun fire as the Turks were driven back up the slopes towards the crest" there were a few other bayonet attacks with haka in ww1, but few if any i can recall at present You will however find many in ww2 and i recall one in the western desert when the enemy (italians) up and ran. El Alamien, and other battles, Rommel and the Germans are recorded as commenting on the haka echoing across the waste of the desert and the unnerving primeval feel of it. Crete had many one of note - Sunday 25 May 1941 to re-take the village of Galatas "German Mountain Troops were totally surprised to be attacked by some 300 yelling [the haka], bayonet-wielding Anzacs from a retreating Allied Force that the Germans considered to be demoralised rabble. The attack was swift and brutal and concluded with the death of an estimated 200+ Germans* and some 40 Anzacs" cheers roger Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dfaulder Posted 8 August , 2011 Share Posted 8 August , 2011 There sounds as if there is a difference between: Yelling words of the Haka as you charged in the attack. and Actually performing the Haka (as I understand it based on RU All Blacks performances) Somehow I cannot imagine an attack being pre-announced either by allowing the Germans to hear a Haka being performed, or by soldiers (however brave/foolhardy) climbing into a position whereby the Germans could see the Haka being performed. David Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
horatio2 Posted 8 August , 2011 Share Posted 8 August , 2011 An interesting range of opinions. My view is summed up within the very title of this thread "HAKA PERFORMED ...". Despite the gloss that some would put on this self-centred routine, I think that this 'look at me' activity has, perhaps, more to do with a show-business performance and less to do with contemplative remembrance. How very modern. Bring on the Morris Dancers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurel Sercu Posted 8 August , 2011 Share Posted 8 August , 2011 Has anybody spoken to the young man and given him a chance to explain ? Aurel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Piorun Posted 8 August , 2011 Share Posted 8 August , 2011 Good on you! That is the most positive news The first that comes to mind is the series of haka's during the attack on Chunuk Bair 8 August 1915, the Maori pioneers were divided up among the NZ regiments before the attack. there were already many Maori in the NZ regiments and the Maori Pioneers went with the different groups in these regiments they already knew. It was a night attack by bayonet up a very very steep hill. I quote Christopher Pugsley book on the maori in WW1- "The anxious watchers within the Anzac perimeter could follow the story of the New Zealand success by the battle-cry of the Maori as each trench was taken: "Ka mate, Ka mate! Ka ora, Ka ora" (we may die, we may die! We may live, we may live!) and by the the receding flashes of the rifle and machine gun fire as the Turks were driven back up the slopes towards the crest" there were a few other bayonet attacks with haka in ww1, but few if any i can recall at present You will however find many in ww2 and i recall one in the western desert when the enemy (italians) up and ran. El Alamien, and other battles, Rommel and the Germans are recorded as commenting on the haka echoing across the waste of the desert and the unnerving primeval feel of it. Crete had many one of note - Sunday 25 May 1941 to re-take the village of Galatas "German Mountain Troops were totally surprised to be attacked by some 300 yelling [the haka], bayonet-wielding Anzacs from a retreating Allied Force that the Germans considered to be demoralised rabble. The attack was swift and brutal and concluded with the death of an estimated 200+ Germans* and some 40 Anzacs" cheers roger Hi, Roger: Your post 90 is appreciated and understood. This post is also informative but I wonder whether it doesn't in fact give the lie to haka being performed by Maori soldiers in battle. There must surely be a vast difference between performing a haka and simply chanting the words of a haka. I really have to doubt whether any Anzac soldier performed a haka during a night attack on anyone. What would be the point - at night? And in daylight, performing a haka would just be an invitation to target practice. Chanting the words in unison would, I grant, have a potentially devastating effect on the enemy. Cheers, Antony Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now