Haka performed at the Menin Gate

[GlenBanna]

Attended the last post on Sunday the 27th of July. The wreath was laid by boys from a New Zealand school.They were really smartly turned out and well behaved. At the end of the ceremony, one of the boys took off his jacket and performed the Haka. Some people were astonished and I had to explain to one shocked Belgian woman what the Haka was (as best I could). I suppose many of the people there have little experience of rugby union.

Glen

[PhilB]

Not for the first time!

http://www.nzdf.mil.nz/news/image-gallery/ceremonial-events/passchendaele/19.htm

[trajan]

I believe that on one recent occasion over here (may have been a Gallipoli commemoration) the Turkish authorities banned the Hakka from being performed in front of the Turkish prime minister for fear it might frighten his wife and those of the other dignitaries with him...

Trajan

[Jonathan Saunders]

In honour of the Maoris that served at Ypres?

[auchonvillerssomme]

Is it appropriate?

[Steven Broomfield]

Nice of him not to cop the strop and do it in the privacy of his own dressing room.

[Alan Tucker]

After NZ's early exit from the World Cup held in France a large number of New Zealanders were in the Salient. That night at the Menin Gate there was a haka. I did not know much about it but felt that its aggressive character was totally out of place at the ceremony. Whatever it might represent in terms of NZ culture it did not feel right.

[Heid the Ba]

As it is essentially shouting "Come and have a go if you think you're hard enough" I agree that it doesn't fit the Last Post ceremony and its mood of rememberance and reconciliation.

Whatever the original cultural meaning or the actual meaning of the words, the Haka's long use by the All Blacks and others has rendered it inappropriate.

[Tom Tulloch-Marshall]

... last post on Sunday the 27th of July. ...

Glen - Was it actually the Haka ?

I had a similar experience whilst taking photographs in Caterpillar Valley Cemetery a few years ago, when a coach load of New Zealanders stopped. They were "passing through" the Somme and didnt have a guide, but had been told about the NZ Memorial to the missing in the cemetery and asked the driver to make a stop there. A few of them said hello and I showed them the headstone marking where the NZ "Unknown" had been buried, and pointed out the NZ Memorial at Longueval.

Whilst I was chatting to a group of them a ... lets call it a very loud "lament" ... started to be "chanted" by a member of the group over by the memorial wall. It was loud, and when I queried what was happening I was told that it was a greeting or call to the dead - I think Maories call these "Karakia" (?).

Just a thought. (If it was the Haka at the gate, then I agree - innapropriate).

Tom

[David Filsell]

I stand to be corrected, but my understanding is that the Haka is essentially a threat and to 'hype-up' the Kiwis. I have always considered that as such it is essentially unsporting - a bad start to a game of rugby. Consequently I fully approved when one opposing team simply turned their back on the performance. I have always thought that it would be fun and apt for the English team to respond with a Morris Dance . Come to think of it the French could do a can-can line up, the Scots a reel and the Italians with an aria That just leaves the Welsh and the Irish to come up with an anti-haka

[CGM]

The Welsh would hold an Eisteddfod. Obviously.

[Tom Morgan]

I suppose it depends which Haka the student did. I was told that there are several Haka, some performed by men in groups, some by individual men and some by women. Some are warlike, but others are symbols of respect, welcome, farewell, etc. Of course, this doesn't help if the audience has no idea at all what's going on.

Tom

[Tom Tulloch-Marshall]

... Of course, this doesn't help if the audience has no idea at all what's going on. ...

Tom - I think you can probably get the gist of what is intended from the facial expressions of the “performers”

Plenty of “anti-Haka” on the interweb; for example >

Here

Here

Tom

[BIFFO]

Is it appropriate?

For years I have hated the menin gate circus,in this case I do think it appropriate as it was "performed"for all the right reasons in the right place by a rep of nz far from home as are the fallen

i`ll get me coat

[dfaulder]

I wonder whether it is time to get back to the original mission

True to its statutes, the Last Post Association wishes to honour and remember the soldiers of the British Empire who gave their lives during the Great War of 1914-1918. The Last Post ceremony seeks to express, day after day, the lasting debt of gratitude which we all owe to the men who fought and fell for the restoration of peace and the independence of Belgium.

What marks out the Menin Gate ceremony from other remembrance ceremonies (at least to me) is that a voluntary association of Belgians have chosen to make that expression every day since 1928 (except for a few years when they did not have access to the Gate).

It must have seemed a simple extension to invite descendents and fellow-countrymen of those they commemorate to recite the exhortation and to lay wreaths, but it did open the door to the ceremony being an opportunity for tourists to "do commemoration", and hence dilute the expression of gratitude.

When the group I was with went to the ceremony, one of our number did the exhortation and a wreath was laid. Another when he thanked Benoit Mottrie (who had met us before the ceremony) along the lines of "many thanks, we are much indebted" he received the prompt response "no, the debt is ours". Which summed it up.

David

[Piorun]

With the greatest respect to New Zealanders, with and against whom I have played Rugby, the ka mate haka is becoming devalued (it was fine when a country only played the All Blacks once every four or five years) and it and other war haka certainly would be absolutely out of place at a ceremony such as that conducted at the Menin Gate. The only haka that would be appropriate would be a funeral haka (I can't remember the name). We have no evidence that this was not a funeral haka so I'd be careful before we criticise the Kiwi lad out of hand. Antony

[Herekawe]

You can have a pretty good argument even in NZ about the Haka and its appropriate usage.

I am glad the NZ school boys were well turned out and respectful and under these circumstances I would be sure the Haka would be performed to be a mark of respect to all present and those whose names are on the Gate as well as all the dead of the salient. I am guessing it was an emotional moment for the party and they felt the need to give voice to their feelings. There are not a lot of ways for young men to do that so take it as a means of expression. Culturally not what some people are used to but thats the way it goes sometimes.

Karakia are laments sometimes or sung prayers and can be Traditional or Christian, can be done by men but more often these days by women.

Is a haka appropriate? Possibly more appropriate at the gaveside of Lt Col G King - CO of the Maori Pioneers at one stage, or Dave Gallagher from the 1905 All Blacks who popularised Ka Mate on their tour of the British Isles, or at the NZ Memorials at Gravenstafle or Messines or one of the Memorial Walls. However it takes a certain amount of guts to stand out and do something like that on a special occasion in front of strangers so full marks to that young chap who ever he is.

The All Blacks do the Haka as a challenge, (not a threat) and originally in the days of hand to hand combat some sides would take the opportunity to leave quickly if they were not prepared to back themselves. Now days they do it because the All Blacks have always done it and there would be a lot of people disappointed if they didn't esp the Rugby Unions in the $ department.

Appropriate? My opinion is that its over used. Most secondary schools have a Haka, which they perform at sporting events before and during the game to support their team, there are Haka competitions so on and so forth. Haka have been performed at times by both NZEFs and even the army today keeps up the tradition, but they are at the business end.

But you could put up a pretty good argument that there is a lot of Hakas done in a nationalistic way because a few NZers happen to get together in some out of the way place like Europe or the USA.

James

[depaor01]

That just leaves the ... Irish to come up with an anti-haka

Riverdance

[regimentalrogue]

But you could put up a pretty good argument that there is a lot of Hakas done in a nationalistic way because a few NZers happen to get together in some out of the way place like Europe or the USA.

James

In contemplating this thread I've been browsing the net looking for information on the haka which, not surprisingly, is dominated by the way the All Black's "exported" it to the world with Ka Mate. I would agree that this probably has less to do with the traditional applications and interpretations of the haka, than it does with the way the haka has evolved into a nationalist symbol of New Zealand.

I my humble opinion, I think that the message is two-fold; first it is found in the spirit of the delivery which we can't get from a single photo, and the second is in how it is received which, admittedly, is a hard read when it seems to be an out of place ritual to some observers. I would suggest the "spirit of the delivery" was likely less a traditional challenge to foes or declaration of prowess (on battle or sports field) than it was a message to the lost soldiers of a nation ... telling them with their own nationalistic ritual that they have not been forgotten and that their countrymen continue to visit the fields where they lay and are commemorated.

[WhiteStarLine]

Hi pals, not wishing to start an argument, but good on him, I say!

I'm from across the Tasman and I can't think of a more spontaneous gesture to the New Zealanders who are commemorated there. I've seen some of the pictures of the New Zealand soldiers our Kiwi pals have posted and the distinctive Maori appearance of many of their soldiers stands out. They must have loved the performance, wherever they are now. Research the level of sacrifice New Zealand put into the Great War as a percentage of their population and then you too may join me in saying well done to the young man.

I was reading an old post yesterday where a group of British school kids were moved to tears by finding a grave with their school motto on it. These young New Zealand men have made a long trip to get there, dressed immaculately and paid homage to their own ancestors in their own way.

Cheers,

Bill

[Andrew Hesketh]

I have no problem with it. I'm not a NZer but whatever the Haka might have originally meant it seems to me that it has now become 'symbolic' of NZ and thus the lad, for the right reasons, was probably doing this as a sign of respect. Whether the ghosts of the boys commemorated there would have got it is perhaps not the point. To me this is a modern act of remembrance and the fact that it's not solemn is fine by me. I'd also point out that the perceved meaning of old rituals also changes over time. If you won't accept that the Haka is now a national symbol rather than some aggressive war cry then please have the bottle to be up front with folks and advertise the next Bonfire Night for what it originally was - a night of anti-catholic revelry culminating in the burning of the Pope's effigy.

[ShirlD]

I think the soldiers would have rather liked this young man and his way of paying respect, which I am sure was his intention.

Lots of special cultural and spiritual rituals have been hijacked and trivialised for media and events (the use in adverts can make me quite angry), so I personally go back to the basic reason for New Zealanders invited to perfom a haka, or spontaneously feeling a situatation deserves one, and embrace that.

However, I may feel very differently in September as we travel to watch 3 games in Auckland, Nelson and Wellington

Cheers

Shirley

[Alan Tucker]

Out of interest how many

a)Maoris

b)Other New Zealanders

on the Menin Gate?

[Len Trim]

Hi,

I was at the Menin Gate that night. I can only repeat that the NZ schoolboys were very well turned out, well behaved and respectful at all times. The Haka coming unnanounced at the end of the ceremony, after the bugles had played, came as a surprise but was well done with a lot of obvious emotion. It felt right. An emotion obviously shared by the crowd who gave a spontaneous round of applause. I know the ceremony is not meant to be an entertainment but what other way can the crowd show their feelings.

Len

[auchonvillerssomme]

Quiet contemplative restraint might be nice.