Haka performed at the Menin Gate

[charles222]

hi again from nz. with regards to the haka . today it is done as a welcome by schools ect .there are lots of differant hakas. the origin of the haka was a challenge, in ww1 . ww2 the haka was done by maori units before battle to get their adrenaline going and hyped up to take on any one expecialy with a bayonet charge, today it is done by all kiwi either maori or not as in most nz sports teams. there is also karakia which calls to the dead which is a differant type . In the days of maori wars each side did a haka (challenge) before an attack then fought to the end for one side . maori are lots of differant iwi in nz., all have seperate Kara kia and whakapapa (family trees) and were always at war with each other until the missonarys came to nz..charles

[Chris_Baker]

Would any non-Maori WW1 soldier from New Zealand actually be aware of the haka?

I must admit I have stopped going to the Last Post ceremony at the Menin Gate, unless I am taking someone there. The tourist crowds, the hum of conversation through "silence", the applause and add-ons such as that being discussed here just turn me off. I go and have my two minutes of silence as I look at the names of my two relatives listed there and think of them and what their loss meant to our family, at other quieter times of the day. For that matter I don't feel that Ypres itself has improved over the years. What was once respectful, awesome and historic now strikes me as a little too touristic and shallow. Just the way I feel. It's still a place I love very much but don't have the same feeling for it that I once had.

[auchonvillerssomme]

Having been stimulated to read up a bit on the subject of Maoris in WW1, can I ask just how many men of the native Contingent were Maori's and how many fo these would have seen action?

[jacksdad]

Hi Chris

"Would any non-Maori WW1 soldier from New Zealand actually be aware of the haka? "

It would be fair to say every New Zealander that fought in World War one, would be aware of the Haka.

At the very least they would know 'ka mate' as done by the All Blacks since 1905.

They would maybe also know their School haka if they had one and they may know their local area haka - that is to say the one by the local maori tribe in their area.

I am not saying that they could perform them well, but they would probably know them. much like you may know a few church songs by sound, but may struggle to pull it off on your own.

cheer roger

[Piorun]

A question: why wear your medals?

Not a criticism, I'd just like to know.

On the other subject, I usually have a couple of beers after the ceremony, but that's usually due to the fact that I'm on "holiday" at the time.

I'm in normal civilian clothes though.

Because they were given to me to wear by my country(ies), because I am proud of what I did to earn at least one of them, because wearing my current uniform of the Royal Canadian Legion at ceremonies such as the Menin Gate or if laying a wreath is a mark of respect to those who died wearing their then current uniform (and mine)and who would be or would have been wearing my current uniform in similar circumstances, because by wearing my medals and Legion Dress it gives youngsters or others a chance to talk to someone who has seen the sharp end, because I have seen the faces of the wee ones from the local day-care at the Eaton Centre who line up to give me a quarter and take a poppy every November when I go back to Toronto to help my Legion comrades in tagging, because taking the time to dress properly reminds me of all the lads who can no longer do so . . . . . . . . . yes, I could go on. I respect your choice not to wear yours. I find that wearing full Legion Dress is an Act of Remembrance for me in itself and, more important, allows others the opportunity to learn.

As to purchased commemorative medals, I don't know if the Legion in the UK authorises them or not. RCL does not. However, RCL does award service medals which are worn on the right breast and this is a time-honoured custom both here and abroad. I believe that there are four or five right-side medals authorised by the Crown and one has to careful that one doesn't condemn those wearing them. St. John's Ambulance is one, I believe. Temperance medals were admirably popular. Should they not have been worn? If the TA awarded you a Jubilee medal or a Centenary medal, is it inappropriate to wear it right-side?

I think I know whence your sentiment arises but we have to be careful not to tar folk with a single brush.

Yours, Antony

[jacksdad]

Good Question, Mate there are 100s if not 1000s of Hakas.

i am no expert but the 1 0 1 of it is.

Ka mate is the most well known. it is probably the most common haka.

It is the story of a boy (named Te Rauparaha - later a great chief) who was running for his life being chased by his enemy, he came across an old lady sitting on a mat, and she hid him under that mat and sat on top, thats why the haka has the hand movement across the crouch -- he was under her. anyway the enemy ran by and the mat was pulled off (arm action of pulling over that the boy in the picture seems to be in) and he lived.

ka mate is done at funerals or rememberance service or the like, along with others, 'Te Waka' is often done as the coffin leaves the building or church. it is the story of pulling war canoes (waka) up the beach at the end of a battle, and the sadness of the dead carried back in those canoe - hence the connection with coffins.

A local iwi (tribe) will have their own 'main' Haka and that may be the main one done at the grave side or church.

Cheers Roger

[auchonvillerssomme]

But it isn't a funeral its a service of remembrance for those long since lost. I just get the feeling it is being dressed up as something that it isn't. And there is a huge difference between a bit of sledging at the start of a rugby match and this behaviour at a remembrance service, regardless of it starting in 1906.

[jacksdad]

Hi Martin G

Your wife is on the ball regarding Ka Mate at private funerals. it is more often used outside of New Zealand or at state events, rememberance services - Sir Ed Hillary funeral or the like.

When they brought home the unknown warrior back in 2005 many haka were used, but the one done up and down the route to the grave site by people on the road side was Ka Mate as the coffin passed.

Most local tribes would use the one particular to them at a funeral.

i do not know what one this brave young man did, i assume it would be Ka mate... for those that have voiced dislike... they maybe happy in that -- thats one of the shortest

[Chris_Baker]

It would be fair to say every New Zealander that fought in World War one, would be aware of the Haka.

Thanks. You learn something every day.

[Herekawe]

Having been stimulated to read up a bit on the subject of Maoris in WW1, can I ask just how many men of the native Contingent were Maori's and how many fo these would have seen action?

Its not quite that easy to assess the Maori contribution in this way. The reason is that while many joined up as Pioneers many also joined up with their pakeha mates via the normal process. It needs to be remembered that there was wide intermarriage (or at least comingling) between Maori and Pakeha in the 100 years before the Great War. As a result many of them would have anglicised names so it is difficult to be specific about how many served this way. Oft quoted example would be 2nd Lt Thomas Grace of the Wellington Batallion who is mentioned by Bean for his work leading a party of snipers at Gallopoli and killed at Chunuk Bair in August.

A quick flick through NZ history on line says "By the end of the war, 2227 Maori and 458 Pacific Islanders had served in what became known as the Maori Pioneer Battalion. Of these, 336 died on active service and 734 were wounded" This excludes people like Lt Grace above.

James

[jacksdad]

Funeral/Remembrance service?

Here is where the problem comes in.

that boy sees no difference, there is no difference to funeral or remembrance service to Maori in the sence that you mean.

perhaps you see those men as dead and gone, and I say this not to offend, but British/colonial culture is once someone dies they are 'gone', 'gone west' kicked the bucket'. Gone to heaven to a better place, but essentially gone. You respect and honor them and remember their sacrifice you honor their deeds. But they are dead.

That boy does not see those men as dead names they are not gone to him. They are present and he is not performing, this not a rugby match challenge - not a performance.

That Boy is not speaking to those present.

He is calling to the dead, past what you see, past the names on that wall, to the men.

To him they are present!

At a Maori funeral, you do not speak to those in the church, you turn and speak to the person in the coffin. You may refer back to the people around you, but your conversation is to the person in the coffin and the lid is off -- the lid stays generally off until the end.

it is a simple difference of culture.

both ways are correct ways to honor the dead.

[jacksdad]

How many of the Maori saw 'action'

thats an easy question to answer

All of them, just like all the other nations solders deployed - Brits, Germans, Turks, Anzacs.

Thats why they are listed as 'Killed in Action' if they ended up paying the highest price.

Harekawe is right many maori also served in the regular units.

The Maori Pioneer unit was engaged in a number of raids around Armentieres and attacks at Gallipoli and Somme 1918. the New Zealand government protested at the maori being treated as a pioneer unit, stating they were as good a man as any British soldier. however they did not get their way. we knew all to well that they were crack soldiers, we had only 40 years prior been at war here in NZ

They got around it by enlisting them in the regular forces after that.

In the second World War when there was less - shall we say bigotry - the maori battn became one of the crack forces of the New Zealand Division.

[Alan Tucker]

god forbid the ceremony becomes a dry and lifeless ceremony!

Since when has total silence throughout been dry and lifeless? I have no problem with a haka at one of the New Zealand memorials or at Ypres Ramparts but it still remains aggressive irrespective of its actual cultural meanings for the most important ceremony commemorating the war dead on the Western Front.I sometimes think that one or two things that happen there occasionally verge on the militarisic which is equally out of order alongside the clapping.There is no blame attached to the boy just any adult who was with him.

[gillchadwick]

Well said Roger Shephard.

[Andrew Hesketh]

I still think what the lad did was a great tribute. Some people don't like it. So what. There's no one way to 'remember'. The important thing is that remembrance still happens.

[Steven Broomfield]

I must admit I have stopped going to the Last Post ceremony at the Menin Gate,... The tourist crowds, the hum of conversation through "silence", the applause and add-ons such as that being discussed here just turn me off. ... What was once respectful, awesome and historic now strikes me as a little too touristic and shallow. Just the way I feel. It's still a place I love very much but don't have the same feeling for it that I once had.

Personally, I agree with that. It's as much part of the tourist trail as King's College Chapel and The backs in Cambridge.

I am a very infrequent visitor to the Western Front anyway (probably 5 times in the last 15 years, and never for more than a long weekend in that time). The last visit to The Last Post was probably 4 years ago and it was, frankly, pretty awful.

I can "remember" perfectly well pretty well anywhere I choose.

[dycer]

I always think,when visiting Ypres,that we(Brits,etc) are just guests of the Town.

Yes,they pander to Brit,etc tastes and in fairness the walk from the Square to the Gate,I find tacky i.e on the left are WW1 Bookshops,advertising Salient trips,and on the right are Tobacconist type Shops but on both sides are Cafe's,where you can sit and order in English but pay in Euros.

Ypres seems to be a Mecca.I visited last year and some Manchester School Orchestra were playing beside the Cloth Hall and this year,a "Rock Group" were setting up in the same place.

Whether the "Rock Group" knew their Bugle Calls is open to conjecture.I hope they understood "Still".

But the ceremony under the Gate must always remain a gift from the people of Ypres however manipulated,by ex-patriot Brits.

George

[Kate Wills]

I agree that there are as many responses to remembrance as there are folk to remember, but what strikes me is that this lad seems to be doing a solo - which begs the question of his schoolfriends' thoughts on its suitability for the occasion.

[nthornton1979]

Maybe they didn't have the guts to do it. Or maybe this one lad was chose above the rest to do it as a solo. Who knows.....

It doesn't for one minute mean the other boy didn't agree with it (in my humble )

Neil

[Kate Wills]

It has been done before

2007

[George Armstrong Custer]

Here's a group of schoolboys doing a Haka at the Menin Gate in 2008. Judge for yourselves:

Menin Gate Haka

[GlenBanna]

Heres another photo to show you how smart they were. The reason I am sure that that it was prearranged was because the boy, who seemed to be a Maori carefully took of his jacket and folded it. It was then taken by another boy while he performed.

Glen

[dycer]

Last year when I attended,my first and only "Gate Ceremony", to date ,there was an Australian contingent who were overnighting in Ypres,prior to attending Prince Charles' attendance at the "opening" of the new Fromelles Cemetery.

The Aussies were resplendent in their Slouch Hats,but remained quiet and respectful ,at the Gate, as a "British"? WW2 Veteran wearing his Medals,stepped out, across the road and up the steps,supported all the way,to lay his wreath.

George

[judy7007]

The Aussies were resplendent in their Slouch Hats,but remained quiet and respectful ,at the Gate,

George

What I personally would prefer but clearly there's a wide variety of opinion here...I think when I go back to Ypres (as I most surely will), I'll go at another time of the day and just spend my own time at the Menin Gate, reflecting ....

[dycer]

Judy,

If its any help,your Countrymen,knew when to remove their hats.

George