judy7007 Posted 6 August , 2011 Share Posted 6 August , 2011 Quiet contemplative restraint might be nice. I couldn't agree more Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrislock Posted 6 August , 2011 Share Posted 6 August , 2011 Out of interest how many a)Maoris b)Other New Zealanders on the Menin Gate? As Kiwi's serving within other British Army Divisions I havn't a clue however, New Zealand has it's own memorials to the missing or those who have no known grave. New Zealand's memorials to their missing as above are listed as at Broodesiende/paschendaele, Polygon Wood and at Messines. There are certainly NZ nationals commemorated on the Menin Gate Memorial. Ref the Haka at the Last Post Ceremony, why? The ceremony is simply a last post ceremony! What next? Morris last post dancing or how about a blast of Zulu dawn to inject more culture?? Surely the ceremony's original aims and objectives must be protected? Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keithfazzani Posted 6 August , 2011 Share Posted 6 August , 2011 I couldn't agree more Add me to that list Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew Hesketh Posted 6 August , 2011 Share Posted 6 August , 2011 Except folks that remembrance doesn't always need to be solemn does it? Now that the war has passed out of living memory it is entering a danger zone. Will crowds still turn up in numbers at the Menin Gate in 50 years time? 100? Who exactly are folks then going to be remembering? We've already heard that these NZers were respectful. This is far better than having a quiet group of teenagers who, when walking away, comment on how boring it all is. The former group carry the torch of future remembrance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Tucker Posted 6 August , 2011 Share Posted 6 August , 2011 We cannot predict the future and distance in time will make an impact but let us cross that bridge when we come to it. When Second World War service records become available I expect that there will be big spike in remembrance of 1939-45 which will spill over into the Great War.If I do my sums right the grandson of a Second World War serviceman could be about 70 in 2043! At a personal level a funeral is better to be about remembering a life rather than mourning a death. But public occasions need to be respectful to tradition. We already have the ludicrous import of clapping instead of silence at football match 'silences' for example. At a personal level a death is someone we knew - at the Menin Gate it is more to do with the scale of those who died on the nation's behalf. Except folks that remembrance doesn't always need to be solemn does it? Now that the war has passed out of living memory it is entering a danger zone. Will crowds still turn up in numbers at the Menin Gate in 50 years time? 100? Who exactly are folks then going to be remembering? We've already heard that these NZers were respectful. This is far better than having a quiet group of teenagers who, when walking away, comment on how boring it all is. The former group carry the torch of future remembrance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nthornton1979 Posted 6 August , 2011 Share Posted 6 August , 2011 I for one am not going to complain about someones methhods of expressing respect. The lad obviously meant well and that's good enough for me. Nationalities, ages and traditions of visitors differ. No harm done. Neil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dycer Posted 6 August , 2011 Share Posted 6 August , 2011 For some reason the People of the Town of Ypres,through its Firemen chose to play "The Last Post and the "Wake Up" Bugle Call at the Menin Gate. I have an Uncle who through,his job,in 1917,may have marched through the Town a few times,difficult to decide, as he was more struck with the "Madonna and Child" in Albert. If I stand at the Menin Gate again The British Bugle Calls sound everywhere both in Belgium and France. George Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deerhunter Posted 6 August , 2011 Share Posted 6 August , 2011 Interesting. Despite being a stiff-upper-lipped Brit, I'm supportive of this lad. Clearly he meant the display (whatever it was, a Haka, or some other tribal Maori display) as a tribute. The fact was stated that the NZ-ers were well-behaved and respectful, so that is that. The tribute, or Haka may be loud, but bugles are pretty loud things in any case - and this is a ceremony of respect, so respect is international. Of interest is that in Ramparts Cemetery there are a cluster of graves to group of casualties from a Maori Pioneer Battalion (one lad from the next village from where my brother lives in NZ). What would have been great is for this tribute to be heard above that ground. Irresepective of that, good on the lad. What I find more abhorrent, is the number of recent veterans who attend the Last Post Ceremony correcly-clad in blazer and slacks, regimentally-attired, bereted, badged, and pious, wearing any array of bought medals, i.e. those not officially awarded or endorsed, and readily available commerically, who then proceed to get gassed up in the main square. That, ladies and gentlemen, is more of an affront to those we seek to remember, than some young bloke who, as an impromptu and considered measure, decides to offer his tribute in an individual way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Piorun Posted 6 August , 2011 Share Posted 6 August , 2011 That's an interesting comment. I presume that you know that the medals are bought and that those wearing them are pious - or is that just conjecture? Legion medals are officially endorsed and may be worn on the right - as may four or five others. Some, I grant, may not be. However, I wonder what those of our lads who got "gassed up" whenever they could after coming off the line would make of the thought that their behaviour was somehow disrespectful to their comrades who had died. On another point though; the Menin Gate ceremony is a Last Post ceremony. While I don't criticise the lad's intent, it is probably not the place for any other form of ceremony to intrude. Either attend the Last Post ceremony and respect it or hold your own ceremony later. The CO and I recently laid a wreath in memory of her uncle at the Menin Gate accompanied by a piper who played "The Flo'ers o' The Forest". I was in RCL uniform of blazer and flannels and had two medals pinned on the left but I can assure you that I didn't feel pious. I just felt sad. And we did have a couple of pints in the Square afterwards. Antony Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GlenBanna Posted 6 August , 2011 Author Share Posted 6 August , 2011 One or two of the posts seem to me to be implying that this boy was acting on his own initiative without permission. I am pretty sure that this was planned with permission. and he was representing the school. Glen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Tulloch-Marshall Posted 6 August , 2011 Share Posted 6 August , 2011 ... The Haka coming unnanounced at the end of the ceremony, after the bugles had played, came as a surprise ... Len - I mentioned this “unannounced” aspect in a recent topic, with regards to some repetitive and unexplained wreath laying at the gate – which I wasn’t at all keen about. I find myself between a rock and a hard place. On the one hand I have the greatest respect and admiration for all who are involved in organising and carrying out the Last Post ceremony at the gate, – but on the other hand I sometimes find myself standing there thinking – this is disrespectful. Clapping – ignorant wazzocks with camcorders trying to get themselves up the bugler’s nostrils – people who wont stop talking – children and youths who have eaten five pounds of sugar that day and are like jack-in-the-boxes on trampolines – the parents of the last – and of course, repetitive and unexplained wreath laying (etc). I can see that the unannounced tribute by the NZ lad could have come as quite a culture shock, to some or many. Did the organisers approve it in advance ? – They must have pre-approved the mass wreath laying the last but one time that I was at the gate, and I think that some forewarning might have eased the “pain” of that. Could “unannounced” possibly be replaced by “pre-announced” (pre 8pm that is). Tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deerhunter Posted 6 August , 2011 Share Posted 6 August , 2011 If you look in "Soldier" Magazine, and no doubt others, you will see adverts for semi-commemorative medals including anything from the BAOR Service Medal to the National Service Medal / Cross. There are a number of these available for a small price, and it's up to individuals, of course, whether they decorate themselves with them. I'm not sure whether these are acknowledged by the RBL - and I don't really care, but I've seen several people wearing them on the right breast at Remembrance Day Parades. I've also seen them worn alongside campaign medals on the left breast. What individuals choose to do is one thing, and they must look in the mirror establish what the importance is. Whatever stage of "dress-up" is each to their own. At recent visits to the Menin Gate, I have noted a number of gentlemen, correctly-attired, i.e. blazer / slacks brigade, wearing a number of "their own" medals. It's a free country, of course, acknowledging the gratitude to the fallen of two World Wars. So to see dressed up "veterans" wearing entirely made up medal combinations, with the regular accoutrements, does not seem appropriate when the aim is to celebrate those who will have earned, as a maximum three campaign medals, which they most probably may not have worn publicly. Just an observation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deerhunter Posted 6 August , 2011 Share Posted 6 August , 2011 That's an interesting comment. I presume that you know that the medals are bought and that those wearing them are pious - or is that just conjecture? Legion medals are officially endorsed and may be worn on the right - as may four or five others. Some, I grant, may not be. However, I wonder what those of our lads who got "gassed up" whenever they could after coming off the line would make of the thought that their behaviour was somehow disrespectful to their comrades who had died. On another point though; the Menin Gate ceremony is a Last Post ceremony. While I don't criticise the lad's intent, it is probably not the place for any other form of ceremony to intrude. Either attend the Last Post ceremony and respect it or hold your own ceremony later. The CO and I recently laid a wreath in memory of her uncle at the Menin Gate accompanied by a piper who played "The Flo'ers o' The Forest". I was in RCL uniform of blazer and flannels and had two medals pinned on the left but I can assure you that I didn't feel pious. I just felt sad. And we did have a couple of pints in the Square afterwards. Antony A question: why wear your medals? Not a criticism, I'd just like to know. On the other subject, I usually have a couple of beers after the ceremony, but that's usually due to the fact that I'm on "holiday" at the time. I'm in normal civilian clothes though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
532SQN Posted 6 August , 2011 Share Posted 6 August , 2011 All I can say is respect my God being there tells it all. Rick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jacksdad Posted 6 August , 2011 Share Posted 6 August , 2011 Good on the Boy! Good on him for attending!!! Good on him for calling to the dead in respect! Good on the school for taking them there! Good on the boys for fund raising thousands of dollars each to get there! Good on them for travelling from the uttermost ends of the earth like their g-grandfathers! Good on them for being 'very well turned out, well behaved and respectful at all times! Good on them! Good on him! pray that more youths attend and take up the call to remember the great sacifice of their g-grandparents! god forbid the ceremony becomes a dry and lifeless ceremony! Good on the boy - may he return! and soon!! before it is too late. This is not the first time a haka has been at the Menin gate - it will not be the last. because i suspect the Menin Gate is a place for all to remember the sacrfice of the war and that generation. Every time I have attended emotions have been stirred, I see emotions also in the faces around me, I hear it in the raised voices of the officers as they shout commands for attention at their soldier groups often in attendance (Shouting - god forbid that's not quiet reverence, or is that ok – because its 'British'). i've heard it in the bagpipes as well and just like the bagpipes the haka can be both a challenge or a tribute - what an empty hall it would be if people could not honor the dead... The Menin Gate is a place surely for all, and if it is a place for all – and that young 'respectful' and 'well turned out' man was stirred to call on the dead at the end, when everything was finished, then that is as relevant as 'quiet reverence' - because both are appropriate, both are honoring, both are have a right and a obligation to honor their dead. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Tulloch-Marshall Posted 7 August , 2011 Share Posted 7 August , 2011 Good on the Boy! Roger - As I said, I find myself between a rock and a hard place with some of these "events" at the gate, but I read your post and I find myself agreeing with it. Your young countrymen seem to have been very well intentioned and have represented your & their country very positively. Tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jacksdad Posted 7 August , 2011 Share Posted 7 August , 2011 Tom Thanks, i know what you mean, we don't want a circus, but we don't want to kill the ceremony either. Boy i admire the courage of that boy! - it inspires me.. his passion. that would take guts - may it be the start of a life time interest in the Salient I was there a number of years ago and about 30 bagpipers marched in from the cloth hall square - with half a dozen drummers pounding their drums - it filled the hall with a roar of pipes that made my Scottish ancestry hair stand on end. hell it made the belgium guy next to me take a few deep breaths as well Was it quiet - no. Was it reverent - yes. should every ceremony be a dull repeat of the last - no Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShirlD Posted 7 August , 2011 Share Posted 7 August , 2011 Roger, I agree with you wholeheartedly. Cheers Shirley Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluedog Posted 7 August , 2011 Share Posted 7 August , 2011 Good on the Boy! Good on him for attending!!! Good on him for calling to the dead in respect! Good on the school for taking them there! Good on the boys for fund raising thousands of dollars each to get there! Good on them for travelling from the uttermost ends of the earth like their g-grandfathers! Good on them for being 'very well turned out, well behaved and respectful at all times! Good on them! Good on him! pray that more youths attend and take up the call to remember the great sacifice of their g-grandparents! god forbid the ceremony becomes a dry and lifeless ceremony! Good on the boy - may he return! and soon!! before it is too late. This is not the first time a haka has been at the Menin gate - it will not be the last. because i suspect the Menin Gate is a place for all to remember the sacrfice of the war and that generation. Every time I have attended emotions have been stirred, I see emotions also in the faces around me, I hear it in the raised voices of the officers as they shout commands for attention at their soldier groups often in attendance (Shouting - god forbid that's not quiet reverence, or is that ok – because its 'British'). i've heard it in the bagpipes as well and just like the bagpipes the haka can be both a challenge or a tribute - what an empty hall it would be if people could not honor the dead... The Menin Gate is a place surely for all, and if it is a place for all – and that young 'respectful' and 'well turned out' man was stirred to call on the dead at the end, when everything was finished, then that is as relevant as 'quiet reverence' - because both are appropriate, both are honoring, both are have a right and a obligation to honor their dead. I am with you Mate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
auchonvillerssomme Posted 7 August , 2011 Share Posted 7 August , 2011 A question: why wear your medals? Not a criticism, I'd just like to know. Because we have earned them, and we can. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deerhunter Posted 7 August , 2011 Share Posted 7 August , 2011 Because we have earned them, and we can. And so have I, and I don't. It's a serious question, and the reason I ask is because is that I've bumped into a couple of guys out and about in Ypres, both older and younger than myself, fitted out in the obligatory blazer / regimental tie / medals combination, occasionally with headdress. Right, what I'm getting at, is that if this was 1921 and not 2011 and those wearing gongs etc. were contemporaries and comrades of the fallen then, yes, I could understand it, of course I could. If it were not the Menin Gate, and if it was a Reunion (maybe a unit function or an Op CORPORATE or BANNER, TELIC, HERRICK, etc. in which the individual had served) then yes, at a pinch. In April last year, I noted one individual with a neat swagger and a collection of these commercially-available medals, complete with blazer, flannels and tie. At the time I thought "have fun, mate, but the occasion is really not about you or what you think you've done.." I also had another opinion of the bloke, which I'm not going to include in this post. With hindsight, I consider this NZ lad's tribute and paying of respects to be more sincere and worthy of recognition. As has been said, good on him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
auchonvillerssomme Posted 7 August , 2011 Share Posted 7 August , 2011 And so have I, and I don't. Good for you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
archangel9 Posted 7 August , 2011 Share Posted 7 August , 2011 Good on them! Good on him! pray that more youths attend and take up the call to remember the great sacifice of their g-grandparents! Well said!! John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dawley Jockey Posted 7 August , 2011 Share Posted 7 August , 2011 Good on the Boy! Roger, I completely agree with you. I would much rather see the 'Haka' or Pipers at the gate which I feel add to the emotion than groups of 'Daytrippers' who have no idea whats going on and who break into applause at the end. I was once at the Gate when a piper started to play Amazing Grace as the wreaths were being laid, someone at the far side of the gate started to hum the tune very quietly and within a minute everyone ( And there must have been 200+) was humming the effect was amazing with tears streaming down most peoples faces, Some might say that it was not appropriate but just to have been there on that night is something I for one will always remember. Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
auchonvillerssomme Posted 7 August , 2011 Share Posted 7 August , 2011 I wonder if gran and grandad and the others on this parade would think we would all still be remembering this far down the line. Gran at the front with flag, grandad in middle in grey suit with overcoat over arm. Bearing in mind that Pitsea was a relatively large town even in 1955, not a big turnout. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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